MK Roberts and The Lost Dutchman Mine Apology

[gollum]

I have always said that I think that I am man enough and intellectually honest enough to admit when I am wrong.

For a long time now, I have been basing my opinions of information provided by Kraig through a filter of his supposedly well researched bogus military history, and after that, the entire Olbers Manifest fiasco. I have known Kraig for quite a while, and in all those years, I have found him to be both EXTREMELY knowledgeable, polite, and willing to share much of his information. When I was told about the military history issue, I was very disappointed and disturbed, because of my military service, I can get touchy about that subject. All of that has been hashed out on a couple of different forums over the several years, so I won't go into the details of each instance here.

I recently did something I should have done a long time ago. I looked into things myself. My sources (which have no dogs in this hunt) have explained to me several things that have made clear the entire situation, and called into question the research done on Kraig. Since the "Kraig Bashing" has taken place on more than one forum and several threads, I decided to publicly apologize to Kraig on a thread all its own.

Kraig,

I was wrong! I apologize for jumping on a bandwagon that I hadn't looked into myself. Like I said, you have always been polite and accommodating. I never brought it up, because it never had anything to do with what we had been talking about at the time.

To Everybody Else,

You are welcome to chose what you want to believe. As for myself, I am extremely confident that the sources of my information are unimpeachable. The military service thing is no longer an issue for me. That said, I will give the benefit of the doubt to Kraig in any circumstances. Don't mistake this apology as a change in my position that the Olbers Document as presented was a fraud meant to deceive. We researched it in depth, and we all came to the same conclusion that it was not authentic. I just think he may not have known it was a fake.

.........as an aside, I won't say who my sources are, or exactly what information I was given. I will only say that I am extremely confident that the information I have is correct.

Again, Kraig I apologize - Mike

 

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[Hal Croves]

I have always said that I think that I am man enough and intellectually honest enough to admit when I am wrong.

For a long time now, I have been basing my opinions of information provided by Kraig through a filter of his supposedly well researched bogus military history, and after that, the entire Olbers Manifest fiasco. I have known Kraig for quite a while, and in all those years, I have found him to be both EXTREMELY knowledgeable, polite, and willing to share much of his information. When I was told about the military history issue, I was very disappointed and disturbed, because of my military service, I can get touchy about that subject. All of that has been hashed out on a couple of different forums over the several years, so I won't go into the details of each instance here.

I recently did something I should have done a long time ago. I looked into things myself. My sources (which have no dogs in this hunt) have explained to me several things that have made clear the entire situation, and called into question the research done on Kraig. Since the "Kraig Bashing" has taken place on more than one forum and several threads, I decided to publicly apologize to Kraig on a thread all its own.

Kraig,

I was wrong! I apologize for jumping on a bandwagon that I hadn't looked into myself. Like I said, you have always been polite and accommodating. I never brought it up, because it never had anything to do with what we had been talking about at the time.

To Everybody Else,

You are welcome to chose what you want to believe. As for myself, I am extremely confident that the sources of my information are unimpeachable. The military service thing is no longer an issue for me. That said, I will give the benefit of the doubt to Kraig in any circumstances. Don't mistake this apology as a change in my position that the Olbers Document as presented was a fraud meant to deceive. We researched it in depth, and we all came to the same conclusion that it was not authentic. I just think he may not have known it was a fake.

.........as an aside, I won't say who my sources are, or exactly what information I was given. I will only say that I am extremely confident that the information I have is correct.

Again, Kraig I apologize - Mike

Mike,

My hats off to you and if I came off as a know-it-all prick, I am sorry for that. It was simply frustration. I have the advantage of being removed from it all which is actually my only advantage.

Victor

 

[Old]

Add my apologies to Mr. Roberts if he too was duped by the manifest fraud. Having to carry the sins of another is the worst form of punishment.

This does beg the question of exactly where the manifest information originated. Sorting that out would go a long way in establishing what can and can not be taken at face value.

Lynda

 

[gollum]

Thanks Hal,

You know, eating a little crow (to me) does not offset how good it felt when I found out that my distrust had been misplaced. I hate to hear bad things about people that have been good to me. I am especially glad that the bogus military service is a non-issue any more.

Mike

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Mike,

I commend you for doing what's right, it takes a big Hombre to admit a mistake as such, and no one seems more deserving of an apology as Mr. Roberts. I have always had a great deal of respect for Mr. Roberts for the person he portrays. I hope that others are able to man up the way you did.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I hope for Kraig's sake that your source is true. I have great faith in my source as well. I asked Kraig for proof of this one thing many times. It would have been simple for him to put it to rest years ago. I wish he had.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I know what you're saying. I also know that I have never found you to have been deceitful in anything we have ever talked about, so I firmly believe that your opinion of what you have seen is not something you made up because you didn't like Kraig. I understand that a lot of research went into what you think.

That said, I think that some of the info you got was flawed. That is what I was told by someone that knows everybody involved. They are not an MKR Flagwaver. Like you, in all the years I have known these people, I have NEVER found them to be anything but honest and forthright. Never prone to flights of fancy or exaggerations. Thats all I will say about them.

I will also say that no matter what is going on with this, I have my own ways of looking at stories with no provenance but the veracity of the story teller. Depending on the teller, I look at it as an interesting story until some other form of provenance is found.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

I know what you're saying. I also know that I have never found you to have been deceitful in anything we have ever talked about, so I firmly believe that your opinion of what you have seen is not something you made up because you didn't like Kraig. I understand that a lot of research went into what you think.

That said, I think that some of the info you got was flawed. That is what I was told by someone that knows everybody involved. They are not an MKR Flagwaver. Like you, in all the years I have known these people, I have NEVER found them to be anything but honest and forthright. Never prone to flights of fancy or exaggerations. Thats all I will say about them.

I will also say that no matter what is going on with this, I have my own ways of looking at stories with no provenance but the veracity of the story teller. Depending on the teller, I look at it as an interesting story until some other form of provenance is found.

Mike

Mike,

It was the accumulation of false stories that convinced me about his character. He has many good, good friends that have stuck by him, despite all the irrefutable evidence they could have easily checked.

One of the things that he built his reputation on was the "fact" that he was taken to the San Carlos reservation as a young boy and he lived there making some lifelong friends among the Apache. His father was a missionary among those people.

So much of his expertise comes from the people and events of his youth. None of it is true. I am no expert on Apache history and life, but know enough to question some of his statements. Each time I did so, with documentation, he would delete all of his posts and go silent for awhile.

Greg Davis says he doesn't blame him for doing that because of the way he was being treated. You and I have disagreed many times but remain friends. I treated him much better then he treated me.

That being said, I don't really dislike the man. I dislike some of the things he has done to put himself in this poor light, but he is still a very likeable man.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Joe

I believe friends don't ask for proofs and statements . Just trust each other .
I consider M K Roberts my friend .

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

I believe friends don't ask for proofs and statements . Just trust each other .
I consider M K Roberts my friend .

Marius,

You are unaware of the facts. You are not alone in being his friend. I defended him in the beginning, but the evidence was overwhelming. I was his friend, but he was not my friend.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Joe,

While I understand what you are saying, I will only say this: This thread was my public apology to Kraig for jumping on the "Bash Kraig" Bandwagon. I am not saying that I will quit my job and spend the rest of my life chasing after whatever Kraig writes. HAHAHA Please understand that I see a story without independent verification as only a good story. From Kraig or anybody else for that matter.

There's a bunch of "Joe Haters" out there. While we have had our differences in the past, we have always gotten along. I have never jumped on the "I HATE JOE" Bandwagon. If I had, then this apology thread would be for you!

I didn't start this thread to start a who's on who's side war or rehash what has been in the public record for several years. I just did something out of character for me, and I thought it deserved a public apology.

Can we just leave it there? Lets get back to treasure hunting!

Thanks - Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe I hate you, you ate my steak from the Dutch man's roundevous.. . Seriously, we have had our differences , still have, but you are 'my Joe' and I forgive you (actually Caroline helps there) sides I have changed my story on Tayopa several times as new counter evidence comes to light.

Yes Tayopa did produce those bars in the Caballos.


or

 

[Oroblanco]

<snip>
Yes Tayopa did produce those bars in the Caballos.


or

And here we have one of those disagreements between you and I - but rather than derail the thread entirely and in keeping with the tenor of the thread, will happily agree to disagree and STILL be friends. This in spite of your ornery refusal to rent that mule to me!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Did too oro, the Tayopa compplex provided the bars' Incidentally mules are like wives, ya just don"t rent them.

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
Yes Tayopa did produce those bars in the Caballos.

Now, DJ, it seems as if your memory is faltering. As you recall, on another thread I demonstrated to you that the "gold bars" in the Caballos (later claimed by Doc Noss to have come from Victorio Peak) were in fact copper bars carrying a few ounces of gold. Thanks to Mike for originally pointing that out. These "pig iron" bars (corroded copper) likely originated at Santa Rita del Cobre, where the original deposits were mined for mostly native copper, but carried substantial gold. As the old maps show, Santa Rita was "copper and gold mines" http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/victorio-peak/202332-victorio-peak-documents-symbols-artifacts-3.html#post4377068

Are you now saying that "Tayopa" was a copper mine? Doc Noss got into trouble trying to pass off copper bars carrying a few ounces of gold as "gold bars" in the 1930s. Willie Douhthit's bars were also valuable, but not "gold". http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/v...ocuments-symbols-artifacts-3.html#post4378743

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Nah sdc,I have always maintained that they were dore' bars. The mines from
sonora & Chihuahua were aways high in Cu & Fe.

Incdentally The Tayopa bars were Ag, prob higher in Silver than the others..

 

[gollum]

Now, DJ, it seems as if your memory is faltering. As you recall, on another thread I demonstrated to you that the "gold bars" in the Caballos (later claimed by Doc Noss to have come from Victorio Peak) were in fact copper bars carrying a few ounces of gold. Thanks to Mike for originally pointing that out. These "pig iron" bars (corroded copper) likely originated at Santa Rita del Cobre, where the original deposits were mined for mostly native copper, but carried substantial gold. As the old maps show, Santa Rita was "copper and gold mines" http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/victorio-peak/202332-victorio-peak-documents-symbols-artifacts-3.html#post4377068

Are you now saying that "Tayopa" was a copper mine? Doc Noss got into trouble trying to pass off copper bars carrying a few ounces of gold as "gold bars" in the 1930s. Willie Douhthit's bars were also valuable, but not "gold". http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/v...ocuments-symbols-artifacts-3.html#post4378743

SDCFIA,

You keep saying things like that, but they aren't true. I don't think anybody has ever proven ANYTHING about Willie Douthitt's Gold Bars, and all we can say is that some of Doc's Bars were mainly copper with a percentage of gold and silver. Many of the bars Doc had must have been refined gold, because several people came away with large amounts of money from a relatively small number of bars (Tony Jolley, Bennie Samaniego, Colonel Willard Holt, and several others all had gotten solid gold bars from Doc).

Leo D. O'Connell:

........Doc ME Noss told me of his find in the Hembrillo Basin, so I decided to quit my work and help him open it. ~~~~~~~~ I saw four gold bricks and tested them with acid, which convinced me hat it was gold and not copper. There were several people present when the acid test was made.

Edgar Foreman:

......... I had the opportunity to see some of the relics and some of the bars of gold that Doc said he had taken out of the cave. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am sure the bar (40 pounds) which Doc showed me, and I held in my hands, was the real stuff. I was privileged to shave off some for an assay. I do not know how pure it was, but I did see assays which ran high in gold. Some of the men drilled holes in it and it was very pretty.

Don Breech:

............... I was shown a sword, napkin ring, old money, and a fan, which I had never seen the like before. And last but not least, several bars. Some of these had holes drilled in them, and showed the same contents as deep as the drill holes went. In my estimation, Doc had found just what said he had ~~~~~~~~~~~

C.D. Patterson (Mayor of Portales, NM):

I believe I know "Doc" ME Noss as well as any living person today. I have had several heart to heart talks with Doc and I feel he spoke the truth as to his find in the Victoria [Victorio] Peak. He was more or less seeking help as to how to get the dirt out of the cave, which was hindering his getting into it. He offered to show me what he had taken out before it caved in and said he had taken out almost one hundred. When I visited Hembrillo Basin in Socorro County in July 1941, there were a lot of people out there helping him, and I took the opportunity to walk with Doc. We didn't walk far when he went over to a bush and pulled out a bar from underneath. I was amazed at what I saw. This one was sawed in two and looked like gold all the way through, beautiful yellow and golden. It was longer than it was wide, and was about three inches thick, and weighed around twenty pounds each. It would have been around forty pounds before it had been sawed in half.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Any kind of charge that could be framed against him always seemed to be the trick they grabbed at. Doc won out in each and all courts he was hauled into, then the ones that caused all the trouble would come crawling back to him for work.

Now, was there a difference between Doc's "Caballo Bars" and his "VP Bars"? Possible. It seemed Doc had both high grade, high purity gold bars as well as mostly copper bars.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
I don't think anybody has ever proven ANYTHING about Willie Douthitt's Gold Bars, and all we can say is that some of Doc's Bars were mainly copper with a percentage of gold and silver.
<cut>
It seemed Doc had both high grade, high purity gold bars as well as mostly copper bars.
Mike

That's right and I agree. The only proof we have re the bullion bars was provided by the Noss family, vis-a-vis the H&H assays - 70% copper, 3 tr oz gold, 2 tr oz silver per 40-pound ingot. When anything other than hearsay and innuendo is provided regarding the other alleged Noss ingot recipients, I'll reevaluate my position.

See, those quotes are from guys whom the grifter Noss suckered. O'Connell (Noss close friend) - "acid test"? Yeah, with a little gold in the bars, it reacted - but no assay. Foreman (Noss close friend). The bars felt "real" - but no assay with provenance. Breech - another Noss partner who was shown shiny things and ended up with nothing, like everyone else. Patterson (Noss close friend) - similar to the rest of Noss's close friends and partners. Took Doc's "word" on everything. So, you're right - Doc had both copper bars ("pig iron ingots"), and bars (the same "pig iron ingots"?) that seemed high-grade to his gullible partners.

I admit my Douhthit allegations are unproven. It's speculation on my part based on Willie's reported California activities - modest lifestyle, trips back to the Caballos for more bars - which indicate that the bars may not have carried "solid gold" values.

 

[Hal Croves]

Mikey?

 

[gollum]

That's right and I agree. The only proof we have re the bullion bars was provided by the Noss family, vis-a-vis the H&H assays - 70% copper, 3 tr oz gold, 2 tr oz silver per 40-pound ingot. When anything other than hearsay and innuendo is provided regarding the other alleged Noss ingot recipients, I'll reevaluate my position.

See, those quotes are from guys whom the grifter Noss suckered. O'Connell (Noss close friend) - "acid test"? Yeah, with a little gold in the bars, it reacted - but no assay. Foreman (Noss close friend). The bars felt "real" - but no assay with provenance. Breech - another Noss partner who was shown shiny things and ended up with nothing, like everyone else. Patterson (Noss close friend) - similar to the rest of Noss's close friends and partners. Took Doc's "word" on everything. So, you're right - Doc had both copper bars ("pig iron ingots"), and bars (the same "pig iron ingots"?) that seemed high-grade to his gullible partners.

I admit my Douhthit allegations are unproven. It's speculation on my part based on Willie's reported California activities - modest lifestyle, trips back to the Caballos for more bars - which indicate that the bars may not have carried "solid gold" values.

That's the great thing about America! You are absolutely free to believe anything you want. Let's see....hhhmmmmm...... do I think that all those people were suckered by Noss or do I believe what they signed sworn affidavits to after Doc was murdered? HHHMMMMMMM I think you aren't giving much credit to the people that actually received some of those bars from Noss. I understand that all that testimony flies in the face of much of what you believe, so its understandable why you don't want it to be true. I completely understand, but I'd rather place my faith in the statements of several people that had first hand knowledge rather than your blanket denial of everything that you don't agree with.

Mike