Million ounces <--- Say what????

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

This is where things fall apart. Even if Jacob was working some mine somewhere ...

The supposed claim as to its content seems absurd.

Let us math this.

Density of quarts is 4466.7 pound per cubic yard.

Assume the vein has 1% gold (pretty rich right?) Comes out to 20 pounds per ton or 9072 grams per ton.

Forget about the volume of all that gold, and think about only the volume of quartz with it, the 99% by weight of the vein. For a million oz gold you need 1520 Cubic yards of quartz. And that is just to accommodate Waltz's "known reserves claim" of what he can see, forget buried parts and where it pinches out and all that. Consider an 18" vein and figure how much face he had to have exposed.

Go ahead and assume it was 10% on average, now we have 'only' 152 cubic yards of vein. Still a pretty big exposure. And that is just what is in sight? The shear magnitude of this and no one can find it?

Even if Jacob had a mine rich in gold, it was no million ounces he could see and catalog.

Color me skeptical about this part. If LDM exists it is some far lessor lode.

 

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[Oroblanco]

This is where things fall apart. Even if Jacob was working some mine somewhere ...

The supposed claim as to its content seems absurd.

Let us math this.

Density of quarts is 4466.7 pound per cubic yard.

Assume the vein has 1% gold (pretty rich right?) Comes out to 20 pounds per ton or 9072 grams per ton.

Forget about the volume of all that gold, and think about only the volume of quarts with it, the 99% by weight of the vein. For a million oz gold you need 1520 Cubic yards of quarts. And that is just to accommodate Waltz's "known reserves claim" of what he can see, forget buried parts and where it pinches out and all that. Consider an 18" vein and figure how much face he had to have exposed.

Go ahead and assume it was 10% on average, now we have 'only' 152 cubic yards of vein. Still a pretty big exposure. And that is just what is in sight? The shear magnitude of this and no one can find it?

Even if Jacob had a mine rich in gold, it was no million ounces he could see and catalog.

Color me skeptical about this part. If LDM exists it is some far lessor lode.

Sound reasoning amigo however there are some issues.

First, no one is making the case that Waltz's statement is a literal, measured ore inventory. The statement is not even that well documented, and the situation was that he was offended by someone's comment that he had merely found a rich pocket that pinched out quickly. As in, most likely a BOAST, not any kind of exact statement.

Second, Waltz's ore is rather on the rich side. An ore which is 1% gold today would be considered very rich indeed, however the only assay we have any kind of record on Waltz's ore, done by Joe Porterie decades ago for Dick Holmes when he wished to sell the gold from Waltz's candle box, showed a value of $110,000 per ton (with the price of gold then at $20.67 per ounce) or some 5300 ounces per ton, around 16% gold. So the amount of host rock is not SO large. <see Helen Corbin's book, The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold for more info on this, and affidavits in the back of the book>

Third, Waltz had stated that the ore vein crops out in the canyon well below his mine, which he had covered up - perhaps he was counting this as well as his smallish workings, in which case he may have been "guessing" the amount not just showing inside his mine but a whole vein reaching down into the canyon as "showing".

Fourth we can not judge how thick the vein is, or deep, to say we can see a vein eighteen inches wide showing, is that one inch thick by eighteen inches, or ten inches thick, or three feet thick or ten feet thick etc. It is only ONE number of three necessary to get any estimate of how much ore there is. Waltz did not even say exactly how deep his shaft was, nor exactly how far down the canyon the vein crops out, leaving more guesswork.

It is a certainty that not all of the ore will be of the exact same tenor (values) as the ore from the candlebox, it will vary greatly. One version of his mine describes it as not more than a dozen feet deep, with an opening no larger than a barrel, which makes much more sense than the giant funnel-shaped pit and tunnel below, which by all logic should have been found already were it SO large. One old man working alone could much more easily conceal such a small mine than a huge funnel pit. Remember one of the statements attributed to Waltz was that you could drive an Army pack train over his mine and never see it.

So you are most likely correct that the mine is NOT a large one, more like a smallish one, however the only way we will ever know how accurate or inaccurate that statement about there being "enough gold remaining in the mine, in sight, to make millionaires of twenty men" may be will be after the mine is found and the gold is extracted. My bet is that it will prove to be closer to true than false, but that is just an opinion.

If a gold vein having 5300 ounces of gold to the ton sounds impossible, consider this - other mines have been found with even higher values. The old lost Cement mine of California had peculiar ore which looked like a reddish cement, loaded with lumps of gold. No one has ever found this mine since the 1800's, but from the descriptions of people who held and examined samples of this unusual gold ore, it was said to be nearly one-fourth to two-thirds pure gold. Even by the lowest estimate of one-fourth gold, this is roughly $124,000 per ton or 6000 ounces per ton of ore, richer than the Lost Dutchman!

Now before someone jumps in to say well, this is a LOST mine so can't be proven or dis-proven, it is not that unusual, certainly not unique or anomalous - in fact, for example here in the Black Hills, one gold mine which was also found by a Dutchman, <a different one obviously> had ore which put even the Lost Dutchman and Lost Cement ores to shame. It was 80 percent gold, and in the mine two big slabs of pure gold were found. This is nearly $400,000 per ton at the old $20.67 per ounce price, or some 19200 ounces of gold in every ton of ore. Placer miners have found nuggets of gold too, some of enormous size but this is gold which has weathered out of the host rock. *Please don't ask me the name of this particular mine amigos, I have my eye on it myself if it should become available to buy!*

Today it is rare for such rich veins of gold ore to be found, however a number of examples have been found through history, and remember Waltz was active in the "good old days", plus he was a successful and experienced prospector, having helped discover several good to excellent gold mines in the Bradshaws as well as working in the gold fields of California before finding his famous/infamous mine. Who knows, perhaps someone will find Waltz's mine tomorrow, and we will all be able to judge all the statements and "clues" for how accurate or inaccurate they were.

One other thing - if you were able to mine out just ONE ton of ore with some 5300 ounces of gold in it, the sale of that gold could bring you over six million dollars today! How many tons of that kind of ore would one need, to become financially comfortable?

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Coffee amigos?

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

Whats the truth in regards to the gold mached the same as the Vulture Mine ore ?
He was a nite watchman there too .
He never had masses of gold just some to live off and toss around .

 

[Oroblanco]

Whats the truth in regards to the gold mached the same as the Vulture Mine ore ?
He was a nite watchman there too .

Not true, Waltz's ore does not match the Vulture ore, and Waltz never worked for the Vulture mine either. There are several excellent books on the Lost Dutchman, but concerning these two rumors I would suggest the one mentioned above, "Curse of the Dutchman's Gold" by Helen Corbin.
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Go ahead and say 16%, still huge. Maths to 95 cu yds. But really, no way the stuff in the box under the bed was gross ore or is the average of the vein. That stuff in the box was the best of the best, worked down to something he wanted to carry home. I doubt the quartz on average contained on tenth or one hundredth of that. Take any laden vein and select out the best parts showing lode ore and you get a nice concentration. Take statistically significant samples and you get the real average in the vein.

Consider this. If the vein was that rich why would he have bothered to uncover almost any of it? Just pic out that portion you harvest - what need would there be to uncover and discover all the rest? You don't pass up more lode than you can mine to explore for more that you could never hope to mine. Who would waste that effort and for what reason?

The claim that he saw or knew for sure of 10^6 oz is absurd.

 

[Springfield]

Of course that statement (Waltz claiming that 35 tons of gold was showing in his 'mine') is patently absurd. As Oro suggested, Waltz's alleged claim shouldn't be taken literally. Trouble is, how do you establish credibility with any of the statements attributed to Waltz?

 

[markmar]

Roy

You wrote : " Waltz had stated that the ore vein crops out in the canyon well below his mine, which he had covered up - perhaps he was counting this as well as his smallish workings, in which case he may have been "guessing" the amount not just showing inside his mine but a whole vein reaching down into the canyon as "showing". "

I believe Waltz said the truth about the ore vein which crops out below his mine . and this could be seen in his map .



But this is not a single map ... Are four maps in one .











The word " ORO " is the vein below his mine and the other landmarks are real and are near his mine .
I post an aerial picture with the landmark near the mine , for those who are interested .



I wish some day to find your " lost " mine .

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Roy

You wrote : " Waltz had stated that the ore vein crops out in the canyon well below his mine, which he had covered up - perhaps he was counting this as well as his smallish workings, in which case he may have been "guessing" the amount not just showing inside his mine but a whole vein reaching down into the canyon as "showing". "

I believe Waltz said the truth about the ore vein which crops out below his mine . and this could be seen in his map .

View attachment 984871


But this is not a single map ... Are four maps in one .


View attachment 984876 View attachment 984874




View attachment 984877 View attachment 984878



The word " ORO " is the vein below his mine and the other landmarks are real and are near his mine .
I post an aerial picture with the landmark near the mine , for those who are interested .

View attachment 984885

I wish some day to find your " lost " mine .

"his map" <-- What is the verification that Waltz drew this? (keep in mind I am new and just starting to get a handle on the players and what not)

Thanks!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Another thing that irks me a tad is the idea that JW was some sort of geological gift to Mensa.

Is anyone seriously suggesting he was out there using his Brunton Pocket Transit and Jacob's staff then transferring the information including strike and dip to his plane table and alidade setup? Then magically knowing future assay values and ore density and such sat back with his slide rule and calculated volumes and converted this to the 'known to him' ore body lode reserve?

Poppycock.

He had more than his hands full obtaining what ore he brought home (from wherever <--- and where he got it/how he obtained it is still a big if).

There is no logical expectation that any huge lode exists that JW knew of.

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherland wrote

Go ahead and say 16%, still huge. Maths to 95 cu yds. But really, no way the stuff in the box under the bed was gross ore or is the average of the vein. That stuff in the box was the best of the best, worked down to something he wanted to carry home. I doubt the quartz on average contained on tenth or one hundredth of that. Take any laden vein and select out the best parts showing lode ore and you get a nice concentration. Take statistically significant samples and you get the real average in the vein.


Consider this. If the vein was that rich why would he have bothered to uncover almost any of it? Just pic out that portion you harvest - what need would there be to uncover and discover all the rest? You don't pass up more lode than you can mine to explore for more that you could never hope to mine. Who would waste that effort and for what reason?


The claim that he saw or knew for sure of 10^6 oz is absurd.

and

Another thing that irks me a tad is the idea that JW was some sort of geological gift to Mensa.


Is anyone seriously suggesting he was out there using his Brunton Pocket Transit and Jacob's staff then transferring the information including strike and dip to his plane table and alidade setup? Then magically knowing future assay values and ore density and such sat back with his slide rule and calculated volumes and converted this to the 'known to him' ore body lode reserve?


Poppycock.


He had more than his hands full obtaining what ore he brought home (from wherever <--- and where he got it/how he obtained it is still a big if).


There is no logical expectation that any huge lode exists that JW knew of.

Amigo please feel free to believe or disbelieve what ever you wish. The easiest thing to do is just say the mine never existed at all, stay home and invest in stocks and bonds for a guaranteed return. I would recommend reading a few books on this topic if you still wish to pursue it, I do not have the time to dig up the information you want. One thing though, no one ever stated that Waltz was any kind of magician/genius nor used any transit, diamond drills etc. All we have are repeated statements which are supposed to have come from him. If this is not enough for you, no one is going to force you to hunt for something you don't believe exists.


Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

ConceptualizedNetherland wrote



and





Amigo please feel free to believe or disbelieve what ever you wish. The easiest thing to do is just say the mine never existed at all, stay home and invest in stocks and bonds for a guaranteed return. I would recommend reading a few books on this topic if you still wish to pursue it, I do not have the time to dig up the information you want. One thing though, no one ever stated that Waltz was any kind of magician/genius nor used any transit, diamond drills etc. All we have are repeated statements which are supposed to have come from him. If this is not enough for you, no one is going to force you to hunt for something you don't believe exists.


Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

All of that is true - as is the truth that there is nothing reasonable nor believable to indicate that a million ounces are at play.

 

[markmar]

Coceptualized

Read this clue : " The mine contained an eighteen-inch vein of rose quartz studded with gold nuggets and another 3' vein of hematite quartz about one-third gold. "

One -third means more than 30% . And for the roze quartz vein , when Doc. Thorne saw it below the mine where it crops out near the wall canyon , from his description , the gold was so pure that he believed how was a partially refined gold ore or a rich gold nuggets placer . What percent of gold can you estimate to a partially refined rich gold vein ?

Waltz was smart miner and I believe his estimation .

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Coceptualized

Read this clue : " The mine contained an eighteen-inch vein of rose quartz studded with gold nuggets and another 3' vein of hematite quartz about one-third gold. "

One -third means more than 30% . And for the roze quartz vein , when Doc. Thorne saw it below the mine where it crops out near the wall canyon , from his description , the gold was so pure that he believed how was a partially refined gold ore or a rich gold nuggets placer . What percent of gold can you estimate to a partially refined rich gold vein ?

Waltz was smart miner and I believe his estimation .

And what is the validity of that clue? Why did we never see the hematite gold?

 

[markmar]

And what is the validity of that clue? Why did we never see the hematite gold?

Because you never found it . And for the validy of that clue ... patience .

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

If JW had that, why was there none of it in his gold?

 

[markmar]

If JW had that, why was there none of it in his gold?

Maybe no needed to pick from that .

 

[Oroblanco]

I have sat in many a bar and let my stories get a little outta hand. But the majority of the time they were based on a true event. So maybe waltz got a little carried away stating there was enough there to make 20 men millionaires. But i firmly believe he had a old mine or cache. Just not as he described it. Hence the reason I don't go looking for his spot specifically. So much stuff to see anywhere ya hike. I am sitting in a wash off the beaten path in box canyon as I write this. Nice to get out

You get the cigar amigo; people are not taking into account the situation which led to Waltz making that statement. We do not have the conversation previous, but do have it that another prospector had scoffed at Waltz having a rich mine, saying he had only found a little bitty pocket of rich ore, which by logic would quickly pinch out and amount to not much. How would you feel, if you had found a rich mine, then have some idiot who never saw it and never even set foot in the area, spout things like you only found a rich pocket? Waltz was almost certainly insulted, offended and was trying to make the point that his mine was NO pocket, and could be exaggerating in his statement. But was he? We can not know for sure - YET!

This is not the first time someone has taken issue with the various pieces of information available on the Lost Dutchman's gold mine; some very good researchers have turned up more solid pieces like the fact that Waltz did exist and lived in Phoenix, also had discovered several rich gold mines in the Bradshaws, had worked in the California gold fields and was from Germany, but beyond that there is little solid evidence concerning the famous lost mine.

These statements including the "millionaires of twenty men" are not recorded in the form of legal affidavits made in front of notaries, most statements either came from his deathbed (when he was supposedly suffering from a high fever) or from encounters in local saloons, which were probably intended to be true and yet cryptic enough that it would not help someone find his mine, like the one about being able to see the old Military Trail from the mine, but from the trail you cannot see the mine. Even the amounts of gold he sold, are not THAT massive, Waltz seems to have wished to maintain a low profile throughout his declining years.

On the other hand, it is not possible to DISPROVE most of these statements, for how much gold really is visible in the mine? We can not know until someone finds it and starts taking measurements. It may turn out that statement is TRUE, so perhaps it is not wise to go making assumptions that it is FALSE until and when the mine is found.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

...How would you feel, if you had found a rich mine, then have some idiot who never saw it and never even set foot in the area, spout things like you only found a rich pocket? Waltz was almost certainly insulted, offended and was trying to make the point that his mine was NO pocket, and could be exaggerating in his statement. ...
Oroblanco

I know that I, like probably most reasonably sane people, would have kept the information completely to myself in the first place. How about you, Oro? People were no different then than now - there is nothing to gain and much to lose by bragging about finding the 'richest mine in the world', especially not having filed a claim on it. This doesn't strengthen the story's credibility.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Splitting hairs between 'false' and unproven, unsubstantiated, highly unlikely, etc. If JW was so smart he could have easily brokered some sort of deal that would have left him incredibly wealthy and safe and probably healthy to live longer, all that without ever having to pic or carry another ounce of ore out.

 

[Oroblanco]

I know that I, like probably most reasonably sane people, would have kept the information completely to myself in the first place. How about you, Oro? People were no different then than now - there is nothing to gain and much to lose by bragging about finding the 'richest mine in the world', especially not having filed a claim on it. This doesn't strengthen the story's credibility.

I must respectfully disagree amigo, and take the polar opposite position, that most reasonably sane people, WOULD want to tell the world about having found a bonanza. In fact it has appeared in the headlines over and over again, someone finds a great treasure hidden in an old barn or managed to retrieve a sunken treasure. It is human nature to wish to share good news, and finding a great treasure, or a great gold mine, is most usually good news. Keeping it totally secret is the rarity. Also, we do not know the details of this situation in which that statement is taken. It is 100% out of context. Waltz did not blab it to the world about his mine, in fact the world was pretty much ignorant of it until he was dead and buried, THEN the various clues and statements (and maps) started to appear. The story is that Waltz did TRY to tell his friends how to find his mine, not an interview with a local newspaper reporter, and those friends got it wrong so the mine remains lost.

As to myself, and speaking only for myself, I would not "brag" so to speak but have found a good gold mine, which I did "tell the world" about some years ago. I don't tell people where it is. In fact we have owned a couple of rich gold mines, one of which was lost due to legal wrangles.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

Splitting hairs between 'false' and unproven, unsubstantiated, highly unlikely, etc. If JW was so smart he could have easily brokered some sort of deal that would have left him incredibly wealthy and safe and probably healthy to live longer, all that without ever having to pic or carry another ounce of ore out.

Amigo you are speculating - we really don't know what Waltz knew, or his reasons for anything; all we have are stories fleshed out by bare bones of facts. You might find a way to broker a deal which would leave you incredibly wealthy and safe, but conditions were not the same in Waltz's day, in fact there were plenty of claimjumpers and dry gulchers whom would have happily murdered him for the mine or even for less than that. Some people are not interested in amassing as much wealth as they possibly can - they just wish to be comfortable, and Waltz certainly seems to have lived comfortably in his last years. He had a small farm, kept a few chickens, visited his friends in town Julia Thomas and her adopted (not legally) son Reinhard Petrasch, with whom he could talk in his native language of German. He had secret stashes of gold on his farm, which he dug up to help bail out his friends Julia and Reiney when she got into financial trouble over a soda machine and other bills. When that gold was gone, and he was dying of pneumonia, he tried to tell his friends (which may or may not include Dick Holmes) he tried to tell them how to find the mine, and the one remaining cache of ore near it.

I have seen many different sorts of attacks on the story and Waltz as well, calling him cowardly, murderer etc and using our reasoning as to why it has to be a false story since "I would get ALL the gold I could" type of thinking, but if we look at Waltz and how he acted, it becomes apparent that he was not interested in getting rich, only in being comfortable and enjoying his remaining years. I doubt that he would have dreamed that his mine would become the most famous, most debated and possibly the most hunted legend in America.

Good luck and good hunting to you amigo, I have attempted to help answer some of your questions and hope that it has been helpful to you. I hope you find the treasures that you seek. If you are really interested in the Lost Dutchman mine, I would recommend some books on the topic, starting with The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, there are many other good to excellent books as well.



Oroblanco