Frank Fish Map..

[djui5]

So, what do you think of the Fish map? Where do you think it leads? Do you think it's real or fake?

 

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[cactusjumper]

Black Top Mesa.

 

[gollum]

I agree Joe. Black Top.

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy and Mike,

A number of old timers believed that the Fish Map led to Black Top Mesa. There is really little doubt, IMHO, that that seems to be the case. If so, the number of claims and explorations should have found what is depicted as X's on that mountain. No one (officially) found anything.

There is a very subtle hint on the map that might lead searchers to another place. That place would be Little Boulder Canyon. As that is also the end of the trail for the Stone Maps, it makes the whole thing a little more interesting. Other than myself, I have never known anyone else to come to that conclusion, including my uncle or any of the people who lighted on Black Top. There are some very well known Dutch Hunters in that group.

You both might want to consider the possibility of Little Boulder Canyon.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Lake Erie Schaefer was a very good friend of Frank Fish, and was also friends with my Uncle Chuck. She, along with the other signers on the Fish Map, were all on Black Top Mesa. I have a copy of the letter from her to my uncle, asking him to see if he could file additional claims for her.....on Black Top. I donated the original, through Greg Davis, to the Museum.

That would be as close as you could get to working with Frank Fish on that particular map.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Added the letter to my last post.

Joe

 

[Sentinel]

Uhhh Randy, He signed the post Joe, So the super duper secret identity is no longer needed.......

You got to pay attention to my rambling. Ignore the serious stuff. I talked about the Fish map, Boulder canyon and Black Top and a few other nuggets on the way out through the brush corral. You were talking about how it was a nice place for lunch and offered to share......you obviously weren't listening while I rambled.

2 maps from the same general area. One is the big picture, the other a concentrated area from the other. Most of it was figured out, but there is some stuff probably still covered. I can't believe I am the only guy that sorted that stuff out. I am not that smart.

 

[cactusjumper]

Actually I have signed as Joe Ribaudo as well. It was never a "secret"..."super duper" or itty bitty.

Joe

 

[Sentinel]

So Joe do you believe there is a correlation between the Fish map and Stone maps?

Which came first? Chicken or the egg?

 

[cactusjumper]

Sentinel,

There is a definate correlation between the two.

If the Stone Maps are a modern-day creation, say after 1900, then many of the "popular" maps, including the Fish Map, were used in making them. A number of stories were also melded into the maps.

In order to do that, you would need someone steeped in LDM lore, and familiar with every twist and turn in the Superstitions. That person would need to be of high intelligence and be a pretty good artist, to boot.

My personal opinion is that it was the work of more than one person.
That does not mean that all of them were artist's, but each may have had his own area of expertise.

If the stones are a hoax, there is probably still one of the creators alive today.

Thanks for asking my opinion. While it's of no more value than the next guy's, it is based on 48-years of familiarity with the legends, and more than a fair share of research. Missing boot leather, directly attributable to the Superstitions also comes into play here.

Almost forgot......The chicken.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Seventytwo]

So Joe do you believe there is a correlation between the Fish map and Stone maps?

Which came first? Chicken or the egg?

The egg? It's for breakfeast!
Seventytwo

 

[Sentinel]

Still it is the million dollar question. Do the other maps compromise the Stone Maps? They could just as well authenticate them. I always figure 95% of the lore are lies. It is just figuring out which 5 percent are the truth. Same with the correlation of this sort of thing and what it means.
Both the Stone Maps and the Fish map have stories that vary and at times contradict themselves.

I would be the first in line to pick up Azmulas book, certainly there is no one I know of who has put in as much time and passion on the subject.

That says a lot from someone who is not infected with Stone Map disease.

 

[cactusjumper]

Sentinel,

I don't know why you would say "infected with Stone Map disease". In the same post, you say: "I would be the first in line to pick up Azmulas book, certainly there is no one I know of who has put in as much time and passion on the subject."

Does that "time and passion" qualify Azmula as being "infected with Stone Map disease"? I have been working on those maps, the trail and the history, for over 35 years. Would that mean I am "infected"? What exactly does that mean?

I have tremendous respect for the work that Azmula has done. That does not mean that I won't, and haven't, questioned some of his conclusions. I have spent a little time in this game as well, and feel that gives me some small amount of background for those questions. They do not come from a position of ignorance on the subject.

People who are passionate about their beliefs are in a much better position in life, than those who are willing to just go whichever way the wind is blowing. It makes them more.....alive. They are the ones, like Azmula, who create passion in others. Who knows how many lives his book will effect? How many will continue chasing his dream? Not a bad mark to leave on this world, IMHO.

What are you passionate about?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Thank's for the clarification. I was kind of hoping to bring Sentinel farther into the conversation, but welcome your explaining his comments. I always thought a "figure of speech" was when you said something like......It's raining cats and dogs.

Don't mean to "over-analyze" your own post, but I only made one (casual) mention of the Stone Maps ending in the same area as the locations pointed out by the Fish Map. After that, I just followed the thread and answered the questions I was asked.

In this case, I will be more than happy to answer your question: "Why does everything have to turn into a stone map discussion?"

When you get into a discussion of the Superstition Mountains......Gold Mines......Jesuit Treasure.....etc, you soon learn that the Stone Maps are the MOST popular topic (by far) to be found. Why do you think it happens?

I was not really looking for an English lesson, which I probably need, but was trying to delve a little deeper into the psyche of Mr. Sentinel. I usually do that by answering someone's questions, and then asking some of my own.

Sentinel seems like an intelligent person. I should think he can manage his own conversations. This, being your topic, I will be happy to oblige you and stick to it in the future. I believe the original question was: "So, what do you think of the Fish map?" I believe I have already answered that. Sorry you did not care for my answer.

What is your opinion on the Fish Map? So far, Sentinel and I are the only ones to try and answer your question. He gave you his opinion as you were hiking through Brush Corral and again here. When you are dining/hiking with the "giants", you should make it a point to pick up every crumb they drop.

I believe we may have had a few conversations in the past. Is his name really Mr. Sentinel, or is that just a "super duper secret identity"?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Sentinel]

Where to begin.....

First I would buy Azmulas book, because I believe it is a book end to what he has been trying to prove all along. I doubt it would change my mind much, but to draw on someones time and experience in the mountains is a smart thing to do. Azmula has always done a nice job of presenting his case, I would hope the book would go beyond what we have been told.

Sentinel is a really cool username, you are just jealous you didn't think of it first.

Stay out of my Psyche Joe, it's dark,damp and pretty scary in there. I avoid it at all costs.


Baseball, hitting the bluenotes and everything else under the sun. So many hobbies, So little time.

Since there is little discussion aside of the 3 of us, it is probably because few know the back story of the Fish map. That might be worth a retelling. Long story though if you go from beginning to end.

You don't know when you are infected, because only those who are clear of it can diagnose. You have a bad case Joe. There is no cure that I know of.

Not as bad as Streptoholmesitis or Waltzomonia I suppose.

Randy, it's almost like Joes picking on me. What did I do?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

LISTENING GENTLEMEN, since I frankly know nothing effectively about the superstitions I cannot put in my 2 cents yet.---BUT!!

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

Sentinel,

"Picking on you"? Perhaps you should have picked "Sensitive" for a username.

Which part of my posts that mentioned you, gave that idea? Was it the part where I said you seemed "like an intelligent person", or where I called you a "giant"? In a like vein, I have said the same things about Azmula on the LDM Forum, and here, that you have said.

You read it as "picking on" Azmula there, and you are reading the same thing into my posts here. Just read 'em as I write them and you will know what I mean.

"Stay out of my Psyche Joe, it's dark,damp and pretty scary in there. I avoid it at all costs."

I will take your advise here, because I am sure you know yourself (far) better than anyone else does. Each time you post, you reveal a little of your psyche. You can avoid that by sticking to the topic and not getting involved in personal exchanges.

"Since there is little discussion aside of the 3 of us, it is probably because few know the back story of the Fish map. That might be worth a retelling. Long story though if you go from beginning to end."

Is it a different story than Frank Fish told? I don't doubt that it would be worth retelling, as that's exactly what Randy was after.....Not counting other's opinions. If you have another story, why not tell it here? At least two of us would love to see it.

Lot's of people have bad cases of mental disease. One of the reasons I started out with a "username" here, was because I thought it might delay a few of them from packing them onto this site and displaying their manifestations on this forum. I am not good at subterfuge and don't like using secret identities. I have done it twice, for good reasons, and was not comfortable with the game.

I use my own name so other's can call me when I am wrong, and put me on the right track. When I put my name at the bottom of a post, you know I am not ashamed of what I have written nor unsure of my position. That does not mean I am right, just confident. I am confident I have not "picked on" you. If you will show me where I have, my apology will be sincere and immediate.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Seventytwo]

Where can I find the Fish Map?
I would really like to see it.
Is it possible to post it here.
Thanks
Seventytwo

 

[Sentinel]

Tried to post it here three times......

Also lost everything I typed each time it failed to upload.

Feldmans site, the Apache junction library site and Doug Stewarts book site all have links to LDM maps. The Apache junction site has a bunch of Tom Kollenborn articles as well, don't remember if Frank Fish is amongst them. Most of the online maps are replicas by Tom Kollenborn. The Fish map is also known as the Peralta 1848 map sometimes. Thomas Glover has a picture of the original or a copy in his book. Greg Davis wrote a nice article about the maps history up to present day in a news letter article. There is always Erie Schaefers book as well which tells the story, but it is hard to come by anymore. I believe Glover s copy was from Linda Peralta though and was one of the copies of the original group. The original is at the Superstition museum and was donated by Al Reser I think.

The original is really dark now because some sort of liquid was used to draw out the writing and it turned the map black.

 

[Sentinel]

One thing here that is most intriguing is why would the Peraltas draw a map of the LDM. It seems likely it was a fresh vein and any map drawn would be rather inaccurate and done by one of the survivors much later.

The maps in question may not lead you to the LDM, but do lead you to actual mining sites that exist. Few maps in the LDM saga are that simple. So were these maps of mines that were played out for the most part? Probably, but the specific areas have their special places in the lore and are better clues for the whole than most.

The Fish map is one such map that if not an original, was based from the proper source and is one of those maps I always refer to as being directly evolved from the Q. However I do not feel the Stone Maps are that source.

The thing here that keeps my attention is the maps, lore and Dutch Hunters converge on some of this over a hundred years and we have hindsight and far better resources to recognize what they may have missed.