Location of Aztec Gold

[gollum]

Well Roy,

If we are going to use that as a standard, you should spell his name MOTECUSUMA. That is how Bernal Diaz del Castillo spells it in his book (and he personally knew the man).

Mike

 

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[Oroblanco]

Spell it any way you wish Moctezuma, Moteczoma, Motecuhzoma, Moteuczomah, and Mwatazuma are variant spellings- however the conventional way it has been spelled for centuries among English speakers, and I might point out, on many geographic places as well, has been Montezuma. If I write Montezuma, no one wonders whom I am referring to. Besides, how does the song sound, "From the Halls of MOTECUSUMA? "

 

[Oroblanco]

PS
In his first description of Moctezuma, Díaz del Castillo writes: "The Great Montezuma was about forty years old, of good height, well proportioned, spare and slight, and not very dark, though of the usual Indian complexion."

 

[markmar]

Hi to all

In my opinion , the Montezuma treasure is in the Superstition Mountains . I make my conclusion from these links :

Treasure of the Cursed Superstition Mountains

The Lost Aztec Treasure



The Painted Rock exist and maybe behind it , is the Aztec treasure .
I post a picture of the Painted Rock from GE , which is in Superstitions . Below the Horseshoe is an Aztec totem , maybe one of their Gods .



Have a nice day

 

[piegrande]

I agree that Diaz used Montezuma. I prefer to use the modern spelling just as the local descendants of the family use it, including my wife. It matters not to me, as long as we understand of whom we speak.

The only place it matters is when people quote ancient Indian legends in the US as saying Montezuma's treasure passed through their territory. This is instantly self-defeating. He was not known in those days except by the Spanish as Montezuma, so any Indian legends which use that name are by defintion bogus.

 

[piegrande]

Oroblanco, "Moctezuma, Moteczoma, Motecuhzoma, Moteuczomah, and Mwatazuma" The only one of those I have not seen in local church documents is the last one. Considering how hard it is to read old Spanish writing, it makes me wonder if that was a bad translation of the Old Spanish writing. I have seen some real bad translations in indexed Mormon documents. In a few cases, I actually know the correct name and yet the Mormon document has it wrong, and when I see the original image, I can see the decoding was in error.

 

[Oroblanco]

Piegrande - while I agree that it is more likely that the treasure is hidden somewhere not that far from Tenochtitlan, since no one has ever found it, all theories are still on the table. Local traditions as you refer to in your area, are not far different from tribal lore of AZ or NM or Texas for that matter - until someone finds it!

Good luck and good hunting Piegrande and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[piegrande]

As a general statement, oroblanco, you are correct with one glaring exception. Unlike any other legendary place, a large piece of formed gold was found on the site in the 20th Century. As I have reported several times. Someone some time ago posted that in spite of many legends in many places, no one has EVER found gold treasure in the legendary places. Except here.

Also, there were descendants of Moctezuma, well documented in the area. And, still are. And, historians have verified the Aztecs did travel there. My wife's grandma saw the deeds before 1918 when insurrectionists destroyed virtually all public records in government offices, and Moctezuma was shown as the first owner. But, of course, she has been dead for 28 years, so I cannot ask if that was Moctezuma I or II. Oh, wait, if she could read them, they were in Spanish which would mean it was Moctezuma II. Almost missed that error.

There is much more that makes it much different than places months away.

The spring inside the house never went dry until the government started drilling deep wells for truck farming and sucked out the hill caves. The main spring basically is a tunnel going no one knows how far up the hill. The man who sold my BIL the land said when he was young, they dug down into a small hole in what is now my back yard, and found a tunnel down there. It was by oral tradition dug to go to the church. That is not too rational because between those two sites is a very deep ravine.

That never-say-die spring is also consistent with the use of the property as a mini-fort for the Moctezuma family. Also included in oral tradition.

I have said from day one that there is not yet absolute proof of the gold here. But, there are very distinct things which do make it different from places far away selected at random out of a very large area, based mostly on wishful thinking. Or, marks on rocks.

But, as you said, keep on, just stay out of my hair and all will be well, heh, heh. The people here mostly will not approach the Moctezuma house, not because of the owners, but because of the dogs. They keep packs of dogs, and when people unknown to them come close, they attack. Some of the toughest men in the neighborhood ask me to accompany them to talk to the owners. Or, even in some cases, ask the uncles to come out for a talk. The dogs all know me from birth, and except for jumping on me, which can hurt and has done so, they are not hostile to me.

And, there have been a number of old graves found, in a place which had a Catholic cemetery no later than 1620. One grouping found not long ago had (I forget, it is posted here somewhere) a group of like 6 (?) ceremonial cups laying beside the same number of skeletons. My builders saw them, and were sent home to permit the owner to dispose of them in hopes of keeping the government from confiscating the land.

This specific incident does not directly link to the treasure, but most definitely does link to the presence of the Aztecs, pre 1620. Which is also consistent with known history as well as oral tradition of the area.

None of these are absolute proof, as I have admitted. However, there are quite a number of consistencies in the oral traditions, and that puts this place far ahead of mountains of unknown history nearly a thousand miles away.

And, let me add that there is a difference between "legends" in places where no one lives, and possibly no one ever lived in any number. Vs. a community which has been more or less in place since maybe 1200 or 1300. And, a difference between "legend" in an unpopulated place, and "oral tradition" in that 700+ year old community. I say more or less because maybe 400 years ago they were ordered by Spain to move 5 miles to be near the Moctezuma house.


Oh, an update on that piece of gold which was donated to the local Catholic church for a new bell. (I referenced the picture which shows the church tower under repair in that time frame.) My wife said it could not have been her grandpa who actually donated the gold to the church. He, ahem, did not approve of the Catholic Church, and I suspect this disdain was mutual, in fact he helped found the current Baptist Church in 1935.

She said it was likely his father, who at that time, still owned the ranch, and was definitely Catholic, actually did the donating. His father, my wife's great-grandpa, died in 1936, as documented by Mormon copies of church documents, though family history said he died in 1939. And, that is when the grandpa allegedly moved from the Palacios ranch to the Moctezuma ranch.

In the approximate time period of the finding of the gold, grandpa would have been no more than 18 or so, and that is consistent with his father being in charge.

I think grandpa came into the tale because he was alive to tell my wife and siblings the tale about the piece of gold, so we erroneously assumed he was involved in the donation. The great-grandpa was long dead when my wife was born in 1942 so she could not have talked to him.

The mother of her grandpa was a Moctezuma. There were no boys in that generation of Moctezumas. Well, there were male births recorded, but they obviously died very young. Two girls lived; one married my wife's grandpa, the other married another man in another family. Each family got some of the land.

There were other Moctezuma's in the area, but they were not heirs of the land. The oldest one in this area is in her 90's. A couple years ago, I was going through the 1930 census, and on one ranch the first person listed was her, a little girl, with no head of household. Clearly the census workers mis-sorted the papers for that ranch. A friend went to her to ask her father's name, so we found out the correct order of the census. I have not yet found a way to maintain that correction, because the Mormons obviously cannot correct original documents.


In Mexico, there is a government office called CASA DE CULTURA. I don't know their funding, but it is administered at the state level. They arrange fine music; ballet folklorico; and sometimes history presentations. A week ago, the directora stopped me at the weekly market place to ask me to give something in March, a history presentation. I don't know what she wants me to give. A summary of the Palacios family back to the 1700's, or the Moctezumas, I am also known as being knowledgeable on them. In fact, a high school girl last year came to ask me for help on a term paper on the Moctezuma's in our area. Someone in her village told me I was the one to talk to on that topic. It surprised me to tell you the truth. But, I shared what I had with her, and gave her a tour of the house.

Anyway, a former state secretary of the Casa de Cultura is now retired, and is working on a book on the Moctezumas in our region. He has access to Biblioteca Polifoxiana, which is where the real old stuff is kept. Once that is done, I will have a lot more information on them. I keep praying he lives at least long enough to finish the book.

 

[Oroblanco]

Piegrande wrote

Someone some time ago posted that in spite of many legends in many places, no one has EVER found gold treasure in the legendary places. Except here.

Some have proposed that the tremendous cache of treasures found in Victorio Peak, New Mexico, was in fact the treasure of the Aztecs. That would amount to a large treasure with much gold, found in New Mexico, where some local Indian legends claim a tie with the Aztecs, however I am not 100% convinced that it was Aztec in origins.

Finding a piece or two of gold or silver in any one place, won't seal the case either. It could have been not a part of the main treasure, or a piece dropped or given as a gift etc. Really the only thing that will settle the question for good would be for someone to find it, that is all of it. Enough gold to match what the Spanish described as paid to them, and this amount has never been recovered. Also, other emperors, even nobles may have had gold, treasure etc which may seem a negative but actually increases the odds of finding something.

Good luck and good hunting Piegrande & everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - I doubt that it would take "months" for an Aztec army to reach AZ or Texas or NM; the Aztecs were able to send runners quite fast, and there would have been incentive for this "evacuation" of what the invading Spaniards sought out of their reach as quickly as possible.

 

[piegrande]

You do not send 'runners' with 15 tons. You send bearers and they don't move so fast. And, they need to carry food with them. A great amount of food.

Also, I believe this was a time when large numbers of people were dying from smallpox. It would be a military error to send hundreds of people off with precious 15 tons of gold on an expedition which would last weeks or months, knowing that they could all die off before getting where they were going. The Aztecs were brilliant military strategists.

Let me add a note here. One theory is the current inhabitants of the house of Moctezuma actually know where the treasure is, and believe as their father did that the treasure belongs where it was put. I note with interest that the room where the skeleton and gold piece was found is the only room renewed. And, it has a very thick concrete floor in it, the only one in the whole house. No one is going to dig easily. I point out this actual fact more for entertainment than seriously. {Edited: that is not a thick concrete floor, but a native stone floor, sorry.}

It was reported the grandfather said there were steps going down into the ground by the skeleton. I am not taking this seriously. This seems to be the sort of thing added to a tale spuriously. But, of course it could be true.

However, my main reasons for thinking the gold is in my village all goes back to the reasons for it. Close; protected; not far to go yet isolated enough to make it hard to find. Also retrievable.

Another reason is this is not just a local "legend". The belief that the gold is there is not something someone reported in a manuscript 150 years ago, but ongoing. When people gather and are having fun, the old ones start telling what they were told as young people by their ancestors. As I told before, when two men got drunk, they started digging in my back yard based on things the old ones had said. Made a nice treasure hole.

If the gold is in the US, I hope you find it. But, as you said, I am convinced there has been gold there, and it did not come from Tenochtitlan.

 

[piegrande]

The uncle who owns the Casa de Moctezuma is around 78. His son, one of them, lives a short distance north of the Casa de Moctezuma. No one lives any more in the Casa of Moctezuma. it is too damaged. The room of interest has been fixed up with a thick concrete floor and grain is stored there.

Friday, the daughter-in-law called to invite me to a dinner at 2:30 Saturday. Family was coming from the State of Vera Cruz. After we hung up, I guessed the Little Engineer wanted to talk to me. A year ago, at the family reunion, they came up and asked me to help her with a paper in English for university.

She was working on a semester project in, I think, Chemical Engineering, but I am not sure of the degree. They had a major company project from a large US corporation, and she had to write an analysis of the document, in English. It is one of those situations where she understood all the words, individually, but did not always understand the paragraphs. That happens to me sometimes in Spanish.

I spent several hours working with her on it, until she felt comfortable with the project. This was one of those incidents where we developed a strong intellectual rapports in a short time. And, I assure you, as much as I like the people of this village, there are not many intellectuals here. Plus, not only aren't there many intellectuals here, but women especially are not often recognized as intellectuals when they really are.

Repeat, this was not a man/woman thing, strictly intellectual.

I am in my 70's, she is in her mid 20's, and looks pretty much like a 12 year old girl. But, oh, man, she is a genius!

Anyway, I realized right away she had probably asked if I would be there this year, so DIL invited me.

She came looking for me right away, and we spent at least 2 hours chatting. We talked about her license (here, when you graduate you take an exam, and the university gives you your license if you pass. I am told people who fail the licensing exam end up doing pretty much the same exact work, but only get paid half as much.) She has finished, and is looking for work in the field. She also plans to go back for a Master's Degree in Industrial Engineering. The ideal case would be work three days, then have three days for studying, but that requires an employer who will accept that plan.

After a lot of talk, I told her about Bernal Diaz claim of what converts to nearly 20 tons of gold. She found it interesting. She said she was going to look up the Diaz book.

Then, the son of the uncle came over, and I told him I thought the treasure was in that room where they store the grain, and where the skeleton was found with the neck piece of gold, and why that is the case. And, that I thought the men of the family knew where it was. And, that the grandpa said often if you didn't put it in the ground, don't take it out. And, that it was a coincidence that is the only room in the whole house which has a thick concrete floor. Heh, heh.

He instantly put on a very stone cold, poker face.

Then, I told him they had a new apparatus which will allegedly spot a refrigerator 30 feet down in the ground. The poker face went away, and he started laughing, agreeing we needed that. (He has long believed the treasure is here, and I well knew that.) I told him it cost around $2000 US. He asked, "is it one of those meep meep machines?" I laughed and told him yes, but a special one.

I told him, "But, your dad would never let us use it, anyway."

He really laughed then, and said, "You are correct there."

I added that I was well aware the grandpa was correct. If we found the treasure, we would probably all be killed, and the land all confiscated by the government. And, that if I found it, I made motions with my hands and feet of covering something back up and stamping it down solid. But, that I would like to know where it is, just out of curiosity. I commented I am a very curious person. The Little Engineer laughed and said that is exactly how she feels about knowing things, too.

The Little Engineer said next year when she comes we are going to speak English, because she is taking another in depth course in English.

Last year, she had a boy friend with her. This year I did not see him.

 

[Salvor6]

Piegrande I'm sure you heard of the Victorio Peak treasure. They say there were Aztec artifacts in there and conquistador arms and armor. Could this be one place the Aztecs deposited their treasure?

 

[piegrande]

This topic is one where, like noses, everyone has one. Some people believe the Aztecs walked months to places their historians said they did not know. One man thinks the Aztecs were the lost tribe of Israel.

My wife is part Aztec, and from 4 years of age to 14 years of age, slept in a house called here Casa Moctezuma, and it is well documented she is descended from Moctezuma I. Local legends abound, but after many years of study and cultural analysis, I have concluded the legends are not legends, but oral tradition.

My own belief is the Aztecs were brilliant military strategists, and it would have been poor stratedy to take the treasure so far away it would never be retrieved, when within a two day walk was property well suited ot the task, and owned by the Tenochas themselves.

It is possible that traders took various things from Tenochtitlan to what is now the USa. But, I do not believe they took 15 or more tons of anything that far away. That is my opinion. You can have a different opinion if you wish, but that is mine and I am sticking with it.

 

[markmar]

piegrande

You wrote : " Also, I believe this was a time when large numbers of people were dying from smallpox. It would be a military error to send hundreds of people off with precious 15 tons of gold on an expedition which would last weeks or months, knowing that they could all die off before getting where they were going. The Aztecs were brilliant military strategists. "

Yes , the Aztecs were brilliant military strategists , like the Incas , the Egyptians, the Mongols , etc. . You know one of these civilizations to have left alive a soldier or a slave after they buried a vast treasure ? The only who remained alive , was the leader and his escort . Who , where went back , were implicated in the " Domino " principle .

" None witness , none tale " . The secret was lost because every king had an own treasure which was sacred and the place where was buried ( with its owner or alone ), had to remain secret forever .

Now , about 15 tons , cut a little .

 

[Salvor6]

I respect your opinion piegrande but you will never know for sure unless you dig. It's like Don Jose's Tayopa complex. Here are two great treasures, both in Mexico, and nobody will ever see them.

 

[piegrande]

Of course, the 15 tons is a rough estimate based on Bernal Diaz statement there were 700,000 pesos of treasure when it started, minus what 80 strong soldiers could carry during Noche Triste. A rather strong cousin last night at a birthday party said he thought 80 strong men could not transport more than around 3 tons total. My estimate was more like 5 tons.

Yes, you are correct we will most likely never know. My opinion is based on many things that are totally consistent and logical. Other theories always have something that lacks consistency. And, to find this consistency took me many years. Diaz supplied the key to consistency.

The local people here tend to agree with me. Even the old grandfather letting people dig all over his property saying, "They are not going to find it."

And, they also suspect the men of the family know where it is and all are committed to not telling.

Part of the consistency is the son who said his father would never let anyone use a metal detector on that room. Since no digging is involved, if the treasure isn't there, why not let them prove it's not there with a deepseeker scan.

Anyway, I am well aware this is one person's theory. For my own purposes, though, I will maintain this theory until someone comes up with a better theory, including one which as this one did, involves actually finding gold on the theorietical site.

I appreciate those looking for vague, impossible places in the USA, keeps them out of my hair.

Plus they can actually search, whereas I cannot for reasons stated.

 

[markmar]

piegrande

The game is not lost 100% . The only men who knew about the buried locations , were the " priests " leaders or else the king's " magicians " . They held the destiny of the empires in their hands . Every king's movements and decisions depended of what this ' magician " said .

The links which I have posted above , have relation with the last ( maybe ) Aztec's priest leader . I believe how to keep their religion and their habits , the last Aztecs with their priest ( without king , now the priest was their leader ) , they choosen for their refuge , the last sacred place , where is buried the treasure of Monctezuma .

 

[piegrande]

I would be interested to know where you read to get this information. I am always seeking more information of any kind.

If I understand your posting, you are speaking in generalities rather than specifics. That is, you cannot tell us where the treasure was buried. But, still seeking ideas how to find it somehow, some day.

If the treasure is buried here, less than 200 yards from me, the Moctezuma family (that is, my wife's ancestors) would have known where it is buried because they were here when it would have been buried. And, those who buried it might well kill the slaves who buried it. But, it is unthinkable they killed the Emperor's own family members.

This place is also unique because it is one of the few 'rumored' burial places where significant gold was actually found. As someone pointed out, there are many legends, but no one seems to actually produce any gold from them. Except here.

I would like to remind you, and everyone else I am not really going to work hard to discourage people from thinking the gold was taken many hundreds of miles which was not consistent with Aztec military strategy. It keeps me safe. And, in any case, due to family issues, I am not more likely to find the gold here than you are in the USA, even if it is here.

I for one do not deny the possibility of a vast treasure in those places. There is plenty of natural gold there, or was before the big gold rush.

I am not even going to deny the possibility that the Aztecs sent gold there. The treasure described by Diaz was only the property of one Emperor out of all of them. I see no reason why others might not have had their treasure, too.

My whole theory is based solely on the fact that at the time of Cortes is is highly improbable they sent 15 tons of gold on a trip lasting many months, when there were better places close by.

 

[piegrande]

I am a very curious person. And, though I well understand there will be no serious investigation of the House of Moctezuma in my lifetime, sometimes it really bugs me not to be able to accept or reject the local traditions. Even if I kept secret the results.