The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Oroblanco]

Photos of these maps are online here as well as an entire forum on the subject, and a number of links online to them. Bob Corbin was convinced they are genuine, Tom Kollenborn was convinced they were fakes. What do you think, are they maps to the Lost Dutchman mine, maps to some lost Peralta mines but not the Dutchman, or fakes?

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

I do not know, and haven't given them too much thought, but it does seem curious that the same man is the one to have found them, and at dfferent times? Almost too coincidental for me to be happy with.

However, after the Tayopa thingie, I am in no position to flatly say no.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gldhntr]

bob brewer has a different theory in shadow of the sentinel...i think he is right....g

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings gollum and everyone,
Can it be proven that Tumlinson was the original finder? Even if he were not the creator of them and DID find them, that does not automatically make them genuine. A hoaxer could have planted these stones at a place along the road where cars commonly pull off, and that is what the tale of how they were found is, that the fellow pulled off the side of the road. If Tumlinson were the original source, why would he have made them? How about to sell them for a profit? You said yourself the stones were sold (after his death) for $1200, which is a tidy sum. Why didn't Tumlinson sell the stones while he was alive? How about to avoid prosecution for fraud? Was Tumlinson really back in Arizona every year trying to follow the maps, or was he there making a new stone map each time, since the report goes that he found one, then a year later returned and found another and so on. Look carefully at the stones themselves, and ask yourself why are they not worn, scratched and corroded more from being buried in the ground for more than a century? Compare these to known, genuine stone inscriptions; they almost never look so pristine. I don't have the time to post photos right now but go compare photos of genuine inscriptions with these stones - if they don't strike you as just a little bit "wrong" then I will be surprised. Heck I have seen grave markers of less than 100 years old which show a great deal more wear and corrosion than these stone "maps". They would have had to be in a cave or some other place completely protected from the elements to have survived in such condition. Use your common sense, does it seem likely that stone maps would be made like these, then semi-buried conveniently along a highway (which had to have a number of men at work as well as equipment BUILDING said highway, and these fellows DO frequently notice things along the sides of the road) only to be conveniently found by a family from Oregon? Or does it seem more likely these are fakes, created for the thrill of a hoax and to be able to laugh at those who try to follow it, or better yet to sell for cold cash at some point?
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Greetings gollum and everyone,
Can it be proven that Tumlinson was the original finder? Even if he were not the creator of them and DID find them, that does not automatically make them genuine. A hoaxer could have planted these stones at a place along the road where cars commonly pull off, and that is what the tale of how they were found is, that the fellow pulled off the side of the road. If Tumlinson were the original source, why would he have made them? How about to sell them for a profit? You said yourself the stones were sold (after his death) for $1200, which is a tidy sum. Why didn't Tumlinson sell the stones while he was alive? How about to avoid prosecution for fraud? Was Tumlinson really back in Arizona every year trying to follow the maps, or was he there making a new stone map each time, since the report goes that he found one, then a year later returned and found another and so on. Look carefully at the stones themselves, and ask yourself why are they not worn, scratched and corroded more from being buried in the ground for more than a century? Compare these to known, genuine stone inscriptions; they almost never look so pristine. I don't have the time to post photos right now but go compare photos of genuine inscriptions with these stones - if they don't strike you as just a little bit "wrong" then I will be surprised. Heck I have seen grave markers of less than 100 years old which show a great deal more wear and corrosion than these stone "maps". They would have had to be in a cave or some other place completely protected from the elements to have survived in such condition. Use your common sense, does it seem likely that stone maps would be made like these, then semi-buried conveniently along a highway (which had to have a number of men at work as well as equipment BUILDING said highway, and these fellows DO frequently notice things along the sides of the road) only to be conveniently found by a family from Oregon? Or does it seem more likely these are fakes, created for the thrill of a hoax and to be able to laugh at those who try to follow it, or better yet to sell for cold cash at some point?
Oroblanco

Oro,

You have got the story so wrong, and your argument as to why he didn't sell them while alive smells! Sounds to me like you are backpedalling?

Admit it! You were mistaken about nobody knowing who found the stones. You were mistaken about there being no Peraltas mining in the Superstitions (I still have to post that evidence). Here's a little teaser about the Peraltas:

"(condensed version) In September of 1864, Antonio Pablo Peralta and his son filed a virgin mining claim on a mine they called "The Valenciana" in the Bradshaw Mountains. The Valenciana was a rich gold mine yielding $35,000 in just over a year. however, it was in a remote area, and Apaches stole their horses and mules three times, and harrassed the miners so much that they abandoned the mine." Arizona Miner, Prescott, Nov 15th 1868. The mine was located on the slopes of Black Mesa, and it was a chimney deposit of gold in a grayish-white quartz. Now, granted, this was after the time in question, but the Peraltas DID mine gold in the area. Proof of the Peraltas in the 1840s time frame to come (I just don't feel like typing all that crap right now).

Your arguments against what I have posted sound as weak as the Democrats' saying that they are stronger on National Security than the Repubs! PLEASE! Go back and reread your arguments!

No, he found them all at the same time. I have read a couple of versions of the story, but in TE Glover's book, he gives the firsthand account from Travis' brother Robert (who helped him dig them up). When you say he found them one per year, that can't be correct. LOOK AT THE PICTURE OF TWO (MAYBE THREE) OF THE STONES ON HIS FRONT BUMPER! That picture was taken at the time he found the stones.

Your idea as to why he didn't sell the stones while alive is TOTAL BS! Why would he risk his wife going to jail? Why go to all that work for something he would never realize a penny from in his life? Doesn't make much sense. He went to Az EVERY year for his vacation until his health deteriorated too much to continue, at which time he gave his brother the stones. His brother only got to go out a few times (after he got a partner). He used to hang around a local bar in Oregon, and talk about nothing but how he was going to find the Dutchman's Mine. Year after year. So much so, that they nicknamed him "Hardrock". He had little money, and no experience in desert hunting. He kept the stones under his bed. He finally showed them to his landlord, and went to the Superstitions a few times, but had no luck (doesn't sound like a hoaxer to me). When he became too ill to continue, he gave the stones back to his brother, who soon died. His wife sold the stones after his death, and died herself two years later.

Charlie Miller (you might have heard that name), was the one who helped Tumlinson clean off the stones. He told Al Reser and Don Shade (I KNOW you've heard of them) that when they were cleaning off the stones, they still had little roots growing in the grooves.

Heck I have seen grave markers of less than 100 years old which show a great deal more wear and corrosion than these stone "maps". They would have had to be in a cave or some other place completely protected from the elements to have survived in such condition. Use your common sense

Use your own! THEY WERE BURIED UNDERGROUND! I think that would have protected them quite well from the elements.

Also; if they didn't exist, then just who did all those bones belong to on the massacre grounds in PERALTA CANYON? The story goes that there was one survivor of the massacre who made it back to the hacienda in Sonora. His name was Pedro peralta. Please look below, and may I introduce you to Senor Pedro Peralta (looks like he picked up a whopper of a scar on his right cheek)!

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum, you seem to be taking this personal so I will try to be brief. I was only expounding several different explanations as to why someone would make up fake maps (to sell) and decide not to risk prosecution. If Tumlinson did find them, not to repeat this but that does NOT prove they are genuine. There are experts with opinions on the stones both ways, and I choose to be of the opinion they are fakes.

You say that the stones show virtually no weathering because they were buried? Isn't the story that one of the stones was only HALF buried, so ought to show a clear line of weathering difference? Besides, being buried is even worse for the stones than if they were exposed! Check out this photo of weathered Chinese gravestones, used to line a gutter:
http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0278-0606-1501-4422.html

You will note that the portion of the stones which shows the GREATEST weathering and erosion is that portion which was below the soil surface! Now in some areas (like here for instance) a stone below the surface gets crusted and coated with a limestone cake, yet we find no crust on the Peralta stones either. If they were cleaned of such crusts, then they removed strong evidence of their genuine-ness and made them more unbelievable.

Look at your own photo of the Peraltas - it says "massacre" in QUOTES. The name Peralta canyon cannot be traced back on old maps to the 1840s, so is a modern name. I have been to Massacre field, and it does appear there was some kind of a fight there - but between whom? It is likely that one side was Apaches but could even be another tribe, as to who was getting ambushed - who can say? Then too, I already told you that there were Peraltas up near Black Canyon city, if you had bothered to read past the first paragraph - well the Bradshaws are not a part of the Superstitions as you well know. Showing proof that Peraltas were present in the Bradshaws proves that they were in the Bradshaws, and is in fact a solid reason to NOT believe they would waste time in the Superstitions where Apaches might kill them at any time, when they had a paying gold mine in the Bradshaws. You have a logical mind, I do not understand why the idea of Peralta lost mines and stone maps seems to appeal to you so strongly that you take disbelief as some kind of a personal attack. I have said repeatedly, you are welcome to believe the Peralta saga and validity of the stone maps, even encourage others to pursue the matter - however I disagree on a number of grounds as already expressed. Can we agree to disagree at least? Seems I failed to be brief...

best,
Roy - Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,
Just an afterthought here, concerning something you wrote above:

Your arguments against what I have posted sound as weak as the Democrats' saying that they are stronger on National Security than the Repubs!

I took the liberty of reading some of your political posts, and am surprised. You are able to present an argument with good manners (at least up until recently) and use facts, opinion etc yet your political posts are of a very different color. I would suggest that we keep the political discussion in the political forum where it belongs. Calling names etc rarely will change another person's mind to agree with you, much less vote the way you choose to.
best,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Gollum, you seem to be taking this personal so I will be brief. I was only expounding several different explanations as to why someone would make up fake maps (to sell) and decide not to risk prosecution. If Tumlinson did find them, not to repeat this but that does NOT prove they are genuine. There are experts with opinions on the stones both ways, and I choose to be of the opinion they are fakes.

Look at your own photo of the Peraltas - it says "massacre" in QUOTES. The name Peralta canyon cannot be traced back on old maps to the 1840s, so is a modern name. I have been to Massacre field, and it does appear there was some kind of a fight there - but between whom? It is likely that one side was Apaches but could even be another tribe, as to who was getting ambushed - who can say? Then too, I already told you that there were Peraltas up near Black Canyon city, if you had bothered to read past the first paragraph - well the Bradshaws are not a part of the Superstitions as you well know. Showing proof that Peraltas were present in the Bradshaws proves that they were in the Bradshaws, and is in fact a solid reason to NOT believe they would waste time in the Superstitions where Apaches might kill them at any time, when they had a paying gold mine in the Bradshaws. You have a logical mind, I do not understand why the idea of Peralta lost mines and stone maps seems to appeal to you so strongly that you take disbelief as some kind of a personal attack. I have said repeatedly, you are welcome to believe the Peralta saga and validity of the stone maps, even encourage others to pursue the matter - however I disagree on a number of grounds as already expressed. Can we agree to disagree at least?

best,
Roy - Oroblanco

No, wrong again! I'm not taking anything personally. I'm actually having fun with this. I just think that many of your explanations of what I have provided are very far reaching! Like I said about the Peraltas and The Valenciana Mine; Wasn't in the same time frame, but there were Peralta Gold Mines North of the Salt River (NorthWest). It is reasonable to assume that the peraltas had mines in the Superstitions as well. The Peraltas of Sonora were a well known and landed family, that were miners. They owned silver and gold mines. They were very prosperous (according to Ward's book "Travels in Mexico in 1827). Then, just after 1850, the family is never mentioned again. This coincides perfectly with the modern Peralta's account of the 1847 massacre destroying the family.

The family stories say virtually the same thing that the evidence supports. The word massacre was in quotes because of Glover being picky with words. The Peralta Family history states that there was a horrible fight with few survivors. technically, that is not a "massacre" A massacre is a total anihilation (everybody dies).

There is also the story of Ben Edwards, who was raised by his grandfather, who was in the US Cavalry. In 1865, his patrol happened upon the massacre grounds, and found a trail of at least 25 skeletons leading back to Upper LaBarge Canyon. At first, they thought they were the remains of Pima Indians killed by Apache. Problem was, one of the skulls had a gold tooth. Indians didn't get dental work. Then, under a bush, hidden from easy view, was the only dressed skeleton. Bens mother was an Apache, and chose to live on the San Carlos Reservation when her husband died. After his grandfather's death, he went to live with his mom at San carlos, and got a job there. Long story short, in about 1910, an old Indian (his uncle) told him the story of the massacre. The book includes all the names of the chiefs, and every detail of the fight (even down to the fact that they kept the horses and ate the mules). Over the years, ben looked all over the massacre grounds, and found evidence of Spanish Miners (see the picture of the Spanish Saddle and pack below). He also found pry bars and wedges used to split rock.

On that same site, Mahlm and Silverlock found loads of float gold, but dig as they wold, they never found a vein. That area isn't even mineralized. More evidence that pack saddles filled with ore were spread out all over the place.

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

Hello again,
Just an afterthought here, concerning something you wrote above:

Your arguments against what I have posted sound as weak as the Democrats' saying that they are stronger on National Security than the Repubs!

I took the liberty of reading some of your political posts, and am surprised. You are able to present an argument with good manners (at least up until recently) and use facts, opinion etc yet your political posts are of a very different color. I would suggest that we keep the political discussion in the political forum where it belongs. Calling names etc rarely will change another person's mind to agree with you, much less vote the way you choose to.
best,
Oroblanco

Oh come on! I made a joke at the expense of the democrats (not the first, nor the last time)! But I'm not a Repub either. If I had to pick a side, I would say Libertarian. If I seem a little flustered, it's because I give you information which you claimed didn't exist, and all you can do is come back with some claims of hoax and fraud for profit (without one iota of evidence to back up your claim).

I make those jokes, because all your arguments refuting my posts are just you making some VERY non factual statements about the character of the Tumlinsons and others. And the arguments make no sense at all! If Travis T was going to go to all that trouble to fake the stones (for profit as you say), but never sold them. Refused to let his name be made public in the Life Magazine Article, never even offered them for sale, used them to look in the Supers for many years, then GAVE them to his brother (who kept them hidden under his bed for many years), the brother never tried to sell them because he believed that they would lead to the LDM, when he was to infirm to continue, he GAVE them back to his brother (who died with them in his possession). And if someone else was going to go to all the trouble to make them, why didn't they sell them for profit, rather than burying them someplace where they would most likely NEVER know if they were found, and so not be able to take credit for them, or realize any profit from them. Your arguments make absolutely no sense. I'm not being rude, just honest. It's a simple thing to do, just put yourself in the place of Travis Tumlinson. Say, YOU find those stones. What would you do with them? Would you want the public at large to know that you had treasure maps in your possession? Would you let your name be used with them in print? I would have to say no to both of those question (just like the Tumlinsons)! Would I secretly use them to try and find what they led to? YEP (Just like the Tumlinsons)! Their actions don't look REMOTELY like anything a hoaxer would do.

DOES THAT SOUND ANYTHING LIKE SOMEONE WHO HOAXED THEM FOR PROFIT? Of coarse not!

About the buried part: The degradation of the stones underground would depend on the type of rock and the mineral contents of the soil. If the ground has moisture in it, of course the stones underground would be VERY worn. How much moisture is in the ground out by Apache Junction? Not much! In your pictures of the Chinese gravestones, how much moisture is in the ground? Looks like a lot! I have some bit of experience with this being from New Orleans. Guess what? The Don Stone was the one near the surface. when he saw the regularly shaped stone sticking out of the ground, he brushed the dirt from around it, and saw the word DON. Now, if you look at the Don side of the stone, you will see that the DON side is more worn than ANY of the other stones. See the pic below. (the DON side was up, and the map side was down, see the difference?).

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,
I posted a very long explanation (again) of why I find these stone "maps" to be not believable on another thread:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,29161.new.html

Mike, unlike your posts, I have not been trashing your arguments in support of these stones, despite the fact that some are terribly thin and highly unlikely. I have attempted to appeal to your logic, on the basis of whether it is more likely that there would be a whole group of lost mines much less a set of four almost-pristine stone "maps" showing the route to them, all found by a single person in an unlikely spot as alongside a highway- versus only a SINGLE lost mine carefully hidden by a SINGLE man, which is why so many thousands of prospectors and treasure hunters have been unable to find it. Just using mathematics, if there were truly eighteen lost Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions, then it would have been eighteen times more likely that at least ONE of them would be found and KNOWN today, yet none are. I have attempted to get you to examine the appearance of the stone "maps" compared with known 100-plus-year-old stone monuments, and notice how wrong the so-called Peralta stones look. Failing this, I have repeatedly told you that you are certainly welcome to believe the stones are genuine maps to long-lost Peralta gold mines, and to go forth and use the maps to find them, that I have no problems with your freedom to do so - I now sincerely hope you WILL, and succeed too. I would sooner see you spend your efforts and time on a better lead, but you are obviously convinced the stones are genuine enough to warrant a great deal more investigation so more power to you, do proceed and use the maps to search the Superstitions. If you find a lost Peralta gold mine, you will certainly improve your financial situation and that is ALWAYS a great thing. If you should fail to find a lost Peralta gold mine, will that change your mind as to the validity of the maps? Because the original finder and his brother, as you have told me, DID use the "maps" to search the Superstitions and failed to find any lost mine of any kind, but perhaps you will have better luck. We are at polar opposites on the subject of these Peralta stones, for at this point I can not believe in them unless someone uses them to find a lost Peralta gold mine, and it appears that only a failure (or many failures) to find the lost mine(s) will change your view of them. So we can debate the validity ad infinitum here, but it does not look like it would be a good use of either of our time. I am not willing to expend much more time on these frauds (frauds to my mind) as I have mentioned before I think the time is far better spent following up less-questionable leads. I posted the poll here out of curiosity, so it does not really matter what the vote is for or against - it is up to the individual to decide if he/she thinks they are genuine and worthy of further pursuit, or are frauds and a waste of time and effort. For my time, effort, travel expenses etc these stones are frauds and not worthy of further investigation. There are plenty of other leads which are not so dubious or open to debate.
Oroblanco

"Oh, I could spend my life having this conversation - look - please try to understand before one of us dies." –John Cleese

 

[Oroblanco]

Just another thought here, but a part of the belief in lost Peralta mines is related to a belief in the Spaniards and Mexicans abilities as superb prospectors. They were very good, but keep in mind that they were human beings and had terrific problems dealing with hostile Apaches, more so than the later Americans with their better firearms and larger numbers of soldiers. It seems unlikely they would choose to venture into a known Apache stronghold when there were other areas less dangerous. Then too remember that these vaunted Spanish prospectors, while successful in many areas in Mexico and the southwest, and despite some relatively minor mines discovered in California - failed utterly to discover the fabulous Mother Lode country of California. They certainly had plenty of time to discover it from the time of the first colony there until the Americans arrived, yet less than TWO YEARS after the Americans got control, the great gold strikes were made. So the Spaniards and Mexicans were good, but not THAT good not to mention they were smart enough to know how to stay alive by keeping out of known Apache strongholds as much as possible. This only serves to point up how unlikely the Peralta-Superstitions legend is, and even more unlikely the Peralta stone "maps".
Oroblanco

“For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered.” Gospel of Thomas, 11

 

[gollum]

Hey Oro,

I never though nor said that I believed you were attacking me. If oyu go back and read ALL my posts about the stones, you will find that I amd the only one that has shown any real evidence of their history! You have your opinions, and won't budge (no matter what anybody says). That's fine as well. No hard feelings, but I just like to clear things up.

Mike, unlike your posts, I have not been trashing your arguments in support of these stones, despite the fact that some are terribly thin and highly unlikely. I have attempted to appeal to your logic,

Here is your argument to me after I had informed you of the story of how the stones were found:

Why didn't Tumlinson sell the stones while he was alive? How about to avoid prosecution for fraud?

Just how does that appeal to my logic? That a man would fake these stones, and keep them a secret from the world for TWELVE YEARS, until after his death? You stated that $1200 was a tidy sum. Does it really sound like a tidy sum for keeping them a secret from 1949 until 1961? And YES, he did go into the Superstitions several times, trying to solve the stones until his health said "No more!" (at which time he GAVE them to his brother). His brother also kept them a secret, even though he was retired and living on a small pension. He could have sold them and made a "TIDY SUM" but didn't and instead found a partner, and went into the Superstitions himself to try and solve them.

First, let me repeat myself: I don't say that they are real. I have never said it, and until I can find test results on the age of the stones, I will keep my position.

What I am doing is arguing a position that EVERY SINGLE proof of evidence of their being frauds or hoaxes has been either shot down, don't make sense, or are not reliable. All I can tell you is to invest in the book by T.E. Glover. He is skeptical of their authenticity as well, but presents most all of the good and the bad. If you are slightly interested in the LDM, you will love that book.

I have never been one of those that think there were 18 Peralta Mines. Most of the different versions of every story I have read or heard have at most, 8 mines. The reason that some have said there are 18 mines is because:

1. Of the number 18 on one of the map stones.

2. The eighteen dots along the trail marked by a line with dots on the two map stones (actually 19 dots, 18 along the trail, and the ending place).

Have you ever seen the movie from 1974 (I think) by Robert E. Lee about the LDM? If oyu want, I have a copy, just PM me your address, and I'll burn you a copy of it. VERY INTERESTING! It is made up of video footage taken during four separate expeditions into the Superstitions (two in the early sixties, and two in the early seventies).

As for the Peraltas being in the area in the mid 1800s: this I do firmly believe. The legends match almost exactly with Linda Peralta's family history. Her ancestors are associated (through family history) with the Superstitions. The legend of the massacre states that one of the few survivors was a Pedro Peralta. She has a picture of a Pedro Peralta, that left Sonora after about 1850, and moved to Baja. The family story is that the massacre absolutely wiped out the family. they never recovered. That story is backed up by this:

In Wards book "Travels in Mexico in 1827", he names the Peraltas as a well to do, landed mining family of Sonora. Several other things name the Peraltas in that time. After 1850, there is no mention of them. The Peraltas that owned the Valenciana Mine in the Bradshaws were from the Peraltas that went to California with de Anza.


As for the wearing of the stones: you state that:

I have attempted to get you to examine the appearance of the stone "maps" compared with known 100-plus-year-old stone monuments, and notice how wrong the so-called Peralta stones look.

Your KNOWN 100 plus year old monuments are in China, and the pictures show that the soil around them has a high moisture content. I showed you a picture of a 4700 year old clay tablet that was found underground in the same kind of climate as AZ, that looks almost perfect. You seem to discount that. All you have to do is google Mayan carving, or Aztec carving, or Sumerian tablet, or anything like that, and you will see much older stone carvings that were buried for several hundred to several thousand years, and still look great. Look below at a 800 year old carving
from Angkor Wat. It has been exposed to the elements since it's making in the early 1200s. looks pretty good, huh?
How much a stone degrades over time is dependent on several factors (moisture in the soil, type of rock, weather extremes, minerals in the soil, etc). You can't just find a 100 year old rock that is worn and say, "SEE?" I can show 10 times as many that were buried and still look spectacular. I can also find pics of some buried for a shorter time that are worn more! Without some test results to prove one way or another, NOBODY can say for sure by looking at them. HeII, the guy who helped him clean off the stones said that there were little roots frowing in all the grooves!

I don't know. I have written Tom Kollenborn ( I got his address and phone# tonight), to see what he thinks, and his reasons for his beliefs. I am also in the process of finding Bob Corbin's info as well (He and his wife are both still alive). I know you said that Tom K thinks they are fakes. His opinion goes a long way with me. He has a ton of first hand knowledge about everything to do with the LDM, and nobody has ever claimed he was a BSer. If Bob Corbin tells me that he had the stones tested, I will take his word for it. Until I hear from them, I am still reserving judgement.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Gollum and everyone,
Mike you have told us that the first stone discovered was the Witch stone, then said it was the Don/Cross stone, well here is a tidbit from the discussion of the giant footprint discovered on your recommended website, The History Hunters:

While on top of this hill he stumbled over a piece of rock slightly exposed in the sand below his feet. Thinking the rock was rather finely shaped, he inspected it closer and ultimately dug it out of the sand. What he had discovered was a rectangular piece of sandstone appearing rock, measuring approximately 17"x 22"x 3" and weighing about 25 pounds. This stone was the "Horse and Priest Map".

Now dang it which stone was first? It does not matter too much to me since I am pretty convinced these stones are frauds (and cannot PROVE they are either fraudulent NOR genuine) but now it is just confusing as to which stone was first discovered as "sticking out of the ground" at least in part, which SHOULD have left a mineral-water stain line at the very least. If you do not know which stone was first, then just say so, as all we can work from is photographs but from your posts on the History Hunters you are well aware that a stone out in the elements for at least 100 years SHOULD show the tell-tale signs of weathering, even if only a PART of the stone was exposed to the air - despite the fact that stone buried in the ground frequently is eroded in a much harsher action due to acidity or alkalinity. This matter of which stone was sticking out of the ground is not really going to make or break the whole issue, and not terribly important but I am still trying to become a "believer" in these danged stones and just can't get past the look of them, let alone the unlikely fact that they would even exist in the first place. I keep being pulled back to that, whether it is more likely that there would be so many lost mines (which were apparently incredibly difficult to find in the first place, which is questionable on the basis of Spanish/Mexican abilities as prospectors, then covered up leaving no trace by the Apaches? Then not a ONE of these mines is ever found by so many treasure hunters and prospectors for over one hundred years after the death of Jacob Waltz?) versus a single lost mine, then even if the Peraltas had a group of incredibly rich gold mines, that they would bother to make STONE maps to carry around instead of on leather, paper, wood etc - now a STONE map makes sense, if it is engraved onto an immobile boulder, but as a portable map? Just weighing out the odds of so many illogical points keeps forcing me to the conclusion they are frauds. I truly would like to believe they are all too real, and only requires a man or woman to go follow them to find a bonanza in gold ore, but even ignoring who AND how they were found, ignoring the fact they just don't look right to me compared to how they should look, ignoring the fact that the finders USED the maps for YEARS to search for a lost mine and failed utterly, ignoring the oddities on the stones themselves like the odd mis-spelling of Corazon, ignoring the opinions of "experts" who have been able to examine the stones in hand and up close and stated their opinions either for or against, ignoring the fact that there have doubtless been a number of others who have also used the maps to search for a lost mine and failed, ignoring the fact that what evidence we have of Peraltas mining in Arizona took place in the Bradshaws, not the Superstitions, ignoring the fact that the stones show remarkably little damage and that NONE were missing, much less that they were found by the same people, they just strike me as way too good to be true. Wouldn't it be wonderful if these stone engravings were the genuine article? I just can't believe it - why in the history of treasure maps to lost mines, the maps which proved to be genuine and correct are a VERY tiny minority among many. Ask Tropical Tramp how many treasure maps to lost mines he found to be genuine and correct - I will bet you that he will tell you ONE, that of Dobie to Tayopa, and even that one was incorrect to a degree.

I wish I could be convinced these maps would lead me (or someone) to one of the lost mines of legend, that we could find an old Mexican recorded mining claim located in the Superstitions and owned by the Peraltas, or at least a will in which a Peralta had bequeathed a group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions to an heir, why we would have THE key to a massive source of wealth that only required the physical effort to go and retrieve it. I just can't get past my doubts on so many unlikely issues with the stones. I only expressed my doubts when Gollum used them as an example of how Spaniards would make a number "7" (seven) in stone inscriptions etc, and I did not feel they were a very good example to use because of the controversy over their validity. If only they WERE real, we would be able to SHOW a rich gold mine in the Superstitions and prove the legend of a lost gold mine in those infamous mountains to be absolutely true. However I am a bit saddened to have to say this but based on the evidence, the so-called "Peralta stone maps" are, on many grounds, far more likely to be FRAUDS. We can only guess as to the motives why a person would have gone to such efforts to fool people, but fraudulent stone inscriptions are all too common and we have no way of ever knowing exactly WHO would have done it, unless that person were to openly confess to it. Unfortunately, it is all too uncommon for a person who has committed a fraud to come forward and admit to their crime - for it IS a crime (in my opinion) even if it were not against the law, to abuse the faith and hopes of people who have done you no harm, to have caused them to expend their time and efforts as well as resources in trying to follow up a falsehood, the resulting disappointment, fallen hopes and dreams, discouragement, simply for the forger's own personal entertainment or profit. If I could find out who made these pariah stones, I would kick his arse myself, for having perpetrated so cruel a hoax.

Gosh it would be great, if these Peralta stones were genuine wouldn't it? Why it would be a real simple deal to just pack your gear, head into the Superstitions and go right to a tremendously rich gold mine - then mine out (and then pack out) as much gold, (or gold ore) as you could carry - or bring along a pack horse or mule or burro to haul even more. To those of you (including Mike) who are of the opinion these stones are real maps, more power to you, good luck and good hunting I really do hope one of you can prove that the stone maps lead you to a lost gold mine. At the worst you will get up into beautiful country and away from the "maddening crowd" along with very good exercise, and who knows you might just find something. I can't get myself to believe in them enough to give them a try, so will never find out on my own. My apologies to everyone concerned for having gotten SO carried away with the debate over the validity of these stones, I did not start out with the intention of blathering quite so much!

This subject has given me hours of entertainment and lively discussion so is not a total waste of time, at least for myself. However I think we have covered the many aspects of the issue fairly well, without successfully convincing either of us to a change of opinion as to their validity. I guess that these stones will remain a source of controversy so long as they exist, to tempt treasure hunters into the Superstitions and raise the doubts of the skeptic, until it can be proven beyond doubt whether they are real or false. I like to think of myself as open-minded, as ready to put faith in the old tales and legends of lost mines and buried treasures, but in some cases even a Tinfoil Hat man just cannot buy into it, and these Peralta stones are that kind of case for me.

I just read your latest post. Whether there are eight or eighteen lost Peralta gold mines is only a number, one considerably larger than another, but still the odds of a group being un-discoverable versus the odds of a single mine remaining un-recovered are harder to accept. I still hold that $1200 was a "tidy sum" in 1961. You could buy a new or almost new car for that amount, then - today it will not buy nearly so much but is a fair sum for a set of stones that are not gemstones or precious metals. Now you say:

First, let me repeat myself: I don't say that they are real. I have never said it, and until I can find test results on the age of the stones, I will keep my position.

If you are unsure of their validity, why would you expend so much time propounding that they ARE genuine? Hmm...

You also seem to put a great deal of faith in the opinion of others -

I don't know. I have written Tom Kollenborn ( I got his address and phone# tonight), to see what he thinks, and his reasons for his beliefs. I am also in the process of finding Bob Corbin's info as well (He and his wife are both still alive). I know you said that Tom K thinks they are fakes. His opinion goes a long way with me. He has a ton of first hand knowledge about everything to do with the LDM, and nobody has ever claimed he was a BSer. If Bob Corbin tells me that he had the stones tested, I will take his word for it. Until I hear from them, I am still reserving judgement.

I would suggest simply decide for yourself, based on your own investigations and weighing out the various odds. To say that "all proofs against them have been shot down" is not exactly correct, as these points are very largely a matter of opinion - with some exceptions and even in these exceptions where we turn to experts for their opinion - it is still an OPINION, and you must know that on countless artifacts found even by trained archaeologists in controlled conditions, there are numerous occasions where the experts are divided in their opinions of the finds. Use your own judgement - the opinions of the experts is welcomed of course but should not be considered as THE final word for you or anyone else.

I wonder how many thousands of words we have expended here, so far? Dang it but if I could concentrate on writing that book with as much will-power, the thing would have been finished some time ago! However this has at least been an interesting (if controversial and sometimes insulting) discussion, even if we have failed to sway our fellow treasure hunters to our opinion. Far different from some of the political rants where the discussion sinks to the level of grade-schoolers calling names and insipid statements of groundless belief in or against some politician. I for one can appreciate that.
Oroblanco

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?" --(wish I had said it) Groucho

 

[gollum]

FOR THE THIRD TIME:

When I first responded to your claims that nobody knew who the real finder was,and nobody knew just where he found them, I grabbed a handy magazine that had the article I was looking for. I didn't feel like wading through Glovers book at the time. I used the story from the magazine, because it had the finders info (I didn't realize it at the time, but it also had some facts of the story wrong as well). When I finally opened the book, I saw that the story (as told by Robert Tumlinson who was there when the stones were found by his younger brother). I saw that the story differed somewhat from the previous version. I stated that the original version was mistaken, and said why (TWICE in different threads, but you keep bringing it up). I think I have explained pretty dang well now, that the only story I give any credebce to , is the one in the Glover Book, because it was the ONLY version told by someone who had ever actually had the stones in their possession. NOW, I hope this puts that to rest! JEEEEEZ!

If you are unsure of their validity, why would you expend so much time propounding that they ARE genuine? Hmm...

I will say this for the second or third time as well:

The only reason I am doing this is because you originally posted wrong information. The same thing I do on the Political Forums. When I see that mistaken information is being posted, if I know something different, I post it. The big difference between your wrong information, and the political forums wrong information, is that your info was wrong not on purpose. On the Political Forums, the lefties seem to like to post highly inflamatory outright lies. When I correct them with facts, it makes me look like a Rightie Repub (which is not the case either). Sometimes it makes it look like I am a believer (see the Bigfoot posts), but that is not the case. I don't post the negatives, because others with a more extreme opinion are doing that. If I can find information that contradicts those extreme posters, I post it!

You also seem to put a great deal of faith in the opinion of others -

Yes, I do. I highly respect people's opinion who have been personally involved with what I am researching. Tom Kollenborn has lived in the Apache Junction area all his life. he has personally known everybody associated with the Lost Dutchman Mine Hunt for the last 40 years. Are you telling me that you wouldn't put any faith in his opinion? You stated that he said they were fakes! I can't find anything in writing to that effect, so I went to the horses mouth. If he tells me that he thinks they are fakes (and why), that would go a long way to make me think they are fakes.

How about Bob Corbin? He was the Attorniey General for the State of Arizona during the time the stones first came into the public spotlight, and has been personally involved in some of the lawsuits pertaining to them. He has also (supposedly) sent the stones to the FBI labs to be tested for age pertaining to a lawsuit. If he told you that, "YES, I sent those stones to the FBI labs, and the tests came back as over 100 years old." would you change your beliefs?

Yes, it would be great if the stones were real. Even then, it wouldn't be as easy as running into the mountains to the end of the trail. There are many variations possible in the clues on the stones. For instance, when you see the word "RIO" or the letter "R", it usually meant a mirror image code. That you were supposed to hold the map up to a mirror to read (backwards). There are no NAMED landmarks on the rocks. If you use where the rocks were found as the starting point (they were found at Queens Creek, and the starting point on the map is a drawing of the cross stone next to a creek), you would have to look for monuments (that's what I think the dots are along the trail). Many of the known monuments in the Supers have been torn down, or changed over the years. Lots of possibe variations.

To say that "all proofs against them have been shot down" is not exactly correct,

I never said that they were "all shot down". What I said was, "some can be shot down (finder unknown, location of find unknown), some don't make sense (Tumlinson made them for profit, but kept them a secret until after his death), and some are unverifiable (unnamed engraver).

What keeps me from being a believer? No VERIFIED testing done on stones.


What makes me think they MAY be real? The finder (and his poor brother) kept the stones a secret until after they were both dead. Neither Travis nor Robert Tumlinson ever attempted to sell the stones in the twelve years that they owned them (and Robert was almost destitute, but believed in their authenticity). Befoire dying, both men went to the Superstitions several times trying to solve the puzzle. A man who helped clean off the stones in 1949 said that roots were growing in the grooves. The former Atty General of the State of Arizona (with much personal experience with the stones) firmly believes them to be real.

NOW ORO! I hope that finally clears up everything about my position on the Peralta Stones, and the story of their finding. And again, I never thought you were attacking me personally or otherwise (trust me, I would have been quite rude had that been the case)

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Mike, the fact that Tumlinson and his brother BELIEVED the stones were real, and we can only infer the belief (it seems logical) still does not prove the stones are genuine, only that the Tumlinsons believed they were genuine. It is quite possible they were the first victims of a mean hoax.

Have you been up in the Superstitions personally? I have, and spent a fair amount of time there - it is beautiful country; I do respect Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn but keep one thing in mind - neither of them has found the Dutchman's mine or the Peralta mines for that matter. From what I saw with my own eyes in the Superstitions, I could not support any idea of a whole group of lost mines there. There simply is not the amount of evidence that would be there if there had been a group of mines. If you have not been there, I hope you will take the time to go up and poke around, if there is any truth to the Peralta legends perhaps you will get lucky and can settle this issue for all time.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hey Oro,

I have been there. And yes, you are right. It's beautiful. Why do you say that you can't imagine eight mines in the entire area of the Superstitions? Do you know how many claims were filed on Blacktop Mesa alone? Hundreds. How many paid off? Some. That was only on Blacktop.

First, you said that you didn't believe in the massacre story. Then you changed it up a little and said it could have been anybody. Not really. Here is the story of Ben Edwards:

"Benjamin Edwards was born in Arizona around the turn of the century, he was a Dutch Hunter and an early partner of Herman Petrasch. The unique factor in Ben's hunting for the mine is that he was carrying on his grandfather's searches, searches which had started over 20 years before Waltz died and Waltz's story became known. His grandfather's expeditions had originated from his discovery of a massacre.

Ben was raised by his grandfather, William. His grandfather told him that he had searched for a lost Mexican mine or mines starting in the late 1860s, over 20 years before the story of the Lost Dutchman Mine. His grandfather told Ben that he had been in the cavalry, and while on patrol in the area of what is today called First Water, they found numerous skele¬tons — about 25. The find was accidental.

It was in December of 1865 and Edwards patrol was in pursuit of a band of Apache who had raided a mining camp. The patrol was water¬ing their horses in what is today known as Week's Wash, which runs through Goldfield. The lieutenant sent two men, Sergeant William Edwards and a trooper named Matthew Green to high ground to look for signs of some overdue scouts. The two men rode up a ridge on the west¬ern slope of Superstition Mountain and there they found the skeletal remains of what they guessed were about 25 people. They found no remains of clothing or any other items at the scene. They did find broken arrows amid the bones and some of the skulls were crushed, in a manner suggesting they had been struck with a war club. It was evident that the men had been killed by Indians, and based on the types of arrows used probably Apache. From the condition of the bones Edwards told Ben he guessed the men had been killed perhaps two, but not more than five years earlier.

Trooper Green took the remains to be those of Pima Indians who had died at the hands of their hereditary enemy, the Apache. The lieu¬tenant agreed with Green, especially as there were no large group of Anglos reported missing or unaccounted for in the territory. Sergeant Edwards was not so certain, but kept his doubts to himself. The troop was then ordered reassembled and they continued on in pursuit of the band of Apache they were tracking.

What had caught Edwards' attention was one particular skull, it had a gold tooth. Edwards knew that neither Apache nor Pimas would have dental work, and certainly not a gold tooth. Edwards wondered if the men might have been Mexican and if so then at least one of them was a man who could afford rich dental work and thus, probably a man of some importance.

Edwards returned on his own time and began trying to backtrack the men whose skeletons he had found. Edwards, like many soldiers, was a part-time prospector and he wondered if the men might not have been miners, after all the area they had been found in was not close to any set¬tlement and far from established trails. Near the massacre site Edwards found what he was looking for, an iron wedge used by miners to break rock in a hard rock mine. Then he found a well used iron pry bar. Edwards now knew they were miners and he thought he knew what they were doing, for he recognized Superstition Mountain for what it was, a resur¬gence volcano. He knew that along the caldera ring of such a resurgence volcano was a good place to look for minerals. He expected to find a Mexican camp and an old mine along the caldera ring. But, the trail Edwards uncovered did not lead along the caldera ring, it led back into the Superstition Mountains.

Edwards slowly searched in widening circles and about a half-mile from the 25 skeletons he found another skeleton under a jojoba bush. These remains were - or at least had been - fully clothed. Underneath the skeleton he found a knife and an untanned cowhide pouch filled with hand-cobbed gold ore. Edwards began to see that a running battle had occurred, and he thought that the man with the gold ore had crawled off wounded to hide in the brush and died unseen by friends or Apache. In all, Edwards found five more skeletons stretching along a trail leading back into the mountains, all had been stripped. It was easy to confirm that a running battle had occurred and backtracked the Mexicans to their camp — in the end, all he had to do was follow the skeletons. The trail led him eastward for over five miles into the interior of the mountains. But, some¬where, probably around La Barge Canyon, Edwards ran out of skeletons. By now he knew that wherever the Mexicans had been working, it was deep in the mountains. He then searched along the canyons, and on the northwestern slopes of what is today Bluff Springs Mountain, he found the remains of a small work camp. There were several prospect holes where the miners had been excavating along an exposed manganese deposit, but no gold. However, there was a trail from the camp which led Edwards to what is today White Rock Spring and Marsh Valley where he found what he was looking for, the remains of a large base camp, includ¬ing a rock lined well. Here everything was either burned, broken or cut up. There were several trails from the camp, and it was obviously the main Mexican camp. Edwards knew from the size of the camp and the well worn trails that the Mexicans had been there for some time, that they had not been just passing through. He also saw something else. As he was working the country he saw a lone Apache sitting a horse on high ground. Edwards hid, and when evening came he began to work his way back to his camp, when he noticed his horse was gone. Fearing a trap, he moved off in the night and for several days would hide during the day and trav¬el only at night until he made it to a mining camp. William Edwards had started hunting lost Mexican or Spanish mines in the Superstition Mountains before Waltz had even arrived in Phoenix.

Somewhere in the records of the U.S. Army there may be, at the least, an oblique reference to this find of numerous skeletons and confir¬mation of a massacre right where legend has always said there was one. There was more to come.

As the years wore on and Ben Edwards took up his grandfather William's search, he took a job freighting to the San Carlos Reservation. This was circa the late 1910s/early 1920s, and there were still Apache braves alive who knew of the old days and the old fights. That his moth¬er was half-Apache and had chosen to remain on the reservation with 'her people' and that Ben had assumed responsibility for not only his mother, but also her family, did not hurt his standing. Ben learned the Apache language and became known as an honorable man. His interest in the Superstition Mountains was known to his Apache family and clan, but they would not tell even Ben about where mining had been done. They would tell him that it had been done, that it was done by Mexicans and that it was done in the years before the white man came to their country (central Arizona). One day an elderly uncle of Ben's went hunting with him in the Superstition Mountains. They worked their way around the northwestern foothills of Superstition Mountain when his uncle said he wanted to tell him some things, important things.

Ben and his uncle sat. His uncle told him that a great fight had hap¬pened and started to point out places on the mountain. He said to Ben that Mexicans who had mined the gold that Ben searched for had died there. The fight had lasted many days, starting with a few braves raiding the Mexican camps. Unfortunately for the Mexicans, they had been slow to realize the seriousness of their situation. The chief who started the fight was Nanni'Chaddi, a brave chief for a Biniedene (Yavapai) Apache —Ben's uncle was Bedonkohe Apache. As the fight grew Nanni'Chaddi called for more and more of his braves, then he sent up smoke signals to call for help from any Apache. Two chiefs came, Dji'LiKine and Tcha'nol'haye, both Bedonkohe Apache. The big fight with all three chiefs lasted three more days. It was a good fight, but Dji'Li'Kine was killed. The ground they were now on, Ben understood, was sacred ground, a place of power from the many deeds done and the brave men who died there. As he listened to his elderly uncle, Ben realized something else. His uncle had been there when it all happened, it had been his uncle's first battle as a young brave. Ben also turned over in his mind the image of his grandfa¬ther, William, and the story he had told Ben of the bones, the skull with the gold tooth and the skeletons William had found. Ben had not told his Apache family of William's story for he knew that on the San Carlos Reservation it was best to keep stories about a United States soldier to himself, especially one who had been his grandfather."

I'm in the process of scanning the whole book to PDF. If I ever get it finished, I'll email you a copy. I meant it about the LDM Movie. If you want it, just let me know.


OH! Is that you or your wife (Mrs. Oroblanco) over in the Political Forum hatin' on Bush?

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

So it appears that we have not yet beaten this dead horse quite enough yet. Ooooooo-kay.

Now in an earlier post, you said:

If oyu go back and read ALL my posts about the stones, you will find that I amd the only one that has shown any real evidence of their history! You have your opinions, and won't budge (no matter what anybody says).
I won’t budge regardless of what anyone says? But then recall that you have repeatedly accused me of “backpedaling” or of changing my position, well the old saying goes that a wise man will change his mind but a fool never will. I have changed my position and admit being in error that we cannot get a name for the original finder of the Peralta stones – shall we look at the times when you have changed what you say, as if it were some kind of vacillating on your part as you imply that I am doing? Let us look at your past posts…

The stone maps were found by Travis Tumlinson, a police officer from Hood River, Oregon. The year being about 1954. Travis Tumlison and family were returning from a vacation in Texas. They stopped beside the highway between Florence Junction and Apache Junction, Arizona. Travis had strolled only a few feet from the car when he noticed the protruding corner of what we now call the "witch map". At first the stone appeared to be the corner of a brick. Upon close scrutiny and after digging out the stone he observed the Spanish writing there-on.

Then later you said:

I used the story from the magazine, because it had the finders info (I didn't realize it at the time, but it also had some facts of the story wrong as well). When I finally opened the book, I saw that the story (as told by Robert Tumlinson who was there when the stones were found by his younger brother). I saw that the story differed somewhat from the previous version. I stated that the original version was mistaken, and said why (TWICE in different threads, but you keep bringing it up). I think I have explained pretty dang well now, that the only story I give any credebce to , is the one in the Glover Book, because it was the ONLY version told by someone who had ever actually had the stones in their possession.

Now I know you don’t wish to cover this subject of when the stones were found, in what order or precisely where, just pointing out that you have changed your story a number of times – changing a story or a position to correct an error or because the information warrants it is not “backpedaling” it is intelligence – recall that old joke about the fellow who turned onto the wrong (oncoming) lane of traffic, but refused to turn around? He didn’t want to become known as a waffler.

You say that I said I did not believe the massacre occurred. I don’t recall saying that, in fact I believe that I said that I have been to Massacre Field and that it appears that some kind of battle occurred there – that is pretty different from saying that NO battle occurred there. You say that 25 skeletons were found there, and one skull had a gold tooth. Fine, I do not deny that – however you then make the leap to the skeletons MUST then be the Peraltas. This is making a connection which cannot be PROVEN from the existing evidence. Perhaps DNA tests could confirm this un-deniably? You then leap further, that these unquestionably Peralta skeletons MUST be a party of Peraltas who were there in the Superstitions working on, or coming from, or going to, their group of seven, eight or eighteen (you say eight in some of your other posts, the supporters of the Peralta legend have several different numbers of mines from seven to eighteen) and again, this is a connection which cannot be PROVEN from the existing evidence. It is a bit like the person who sees a light in the night sky, and the light is unlike any known aircraft or natural phenomenon – which is by definition an Unidentified Flying Object, then proceeds to the assumption that this odd light MUST then be an Alien Mothership from another planet! It is going from A to B to Z, despite the fact we should have stopped at B because we simply don’t have enough evidence to go any farther with the assumptions.

It is funny that you would choose to cite Benjamin Edward’s story too. Benjamin is a person who was out searching for his grandfather’s reported lost Mexican mine. How exactly does the fact that Benjamin was out searching for a mine prove that they existed, when he found none? Again too, where exactly does this Benjamin say that the lost mine he was searching for had belonged to Peraltas? We are making that series of leaps again from A to B to Z, when we ought to have stopped at B.

Then we can examine Edward’s own report:
Trooper Green took the remains to be those of Pima Indians who had died at the hands of their hereditary enemy, the Apache. The lieutenant agreed with Green, especially as there were no large group of Anglos reported missing or unaccounted for in the territory. Sergeant Edwards was not so certain, but kept his doubts to himself. The troop was then ordered reassembled and they continued on in pursuit of the band of Apache they were tracking.

What had caught Edwards' attention was one particular skull, it had a gold tooth. Edwards knew that neither Apache nor Pimas would have dental work, and certainly not a gold tooth. Edwards wondered if the men might have been Mexican and if so then at least one of them was a man who could afford rich dental work and thus, probably a man of some importance.

Now I repeat this again, but why should we believe this massacred party MUST be Peraltas, when Trooper Green was of the opinion they were Pimas? The presence of a single skull with a gold tooth? It cannot be an Indian because of the gold tooth I suppose? Well not to burst the bubble with still more doubts, but a famous Apache warrior named Massai was known to have had a gold tooth, with several versions of how he came to have it, and this dates to the 1889 period so is not TOO modern. In fact his gold tooth was how his body was identified when he was killed, so the finding of a gold tooth in a skull does NOT automatically mean it had to be a non-Indian, much less a Peralta coming or going from his group of gold mines nearby. I hate to say this but “here we go again” making a leap from A to B to Z – that the massacre must have been the Peralta party coming/going to their group of lost gold mines, when the evidence and testimony actually does not support this. I can tell that you are an optimist, because an optimist will make the leap of logic while the pessimist won’t, well I prefer the realist view that we only connect the dots that CAN be directly connected. Mike you seem to want to make that extra leap time and again through this whole legend of Peralta stone maps and Peralta lost gold mines in the Superstitions, and when I point it out you seem to miss the point every time. I can’t believe you don’t get the issue raised, so it looks like perhaps a case of over-optimism.

I am fairly certain that Yavapais were a separate but closely allied tribe to the several different bands of Apaches. The one name I do not recognize at all it is a new one for me – Bedonkohe can you identify which band this is, Chiricahua, Mescalero, Jicarilla or is this another one entirely? Just curious, it sounds like an Apache-language name and not what we silly white folks call them, just as the Navajo do not call themselves Navajo but Dineh.

Now you have said that you respect Tom Kollenborn. Why not read what HE put on HIS website then, as I posted the link to it here earlier? Remember I said this in post 159, “PS - Mike, Tom Kollenborn believes the Peralta stones are a cruel hoax. Check out his site:

http://www.superstitionmountainmuseum.org/LostDutchmanExhibit.htm

If you don’t have the time or inclination to go and read it for yourself, here is what Tom put on his website, quote
“Bicknell may have had the earliest impact on the legend itself, but Barry Storm embellished all works he found on the Dutchman, the Peraltas or Jesuits. His work impacted the thinking of more contemporary prospectors than any other individual except for the man who perpetrated the infamous Peralta Stone Maps.End quote

Near the top of the page, you will see that it reads : History Courtesy of Tom Kollenborn and the Superstition Mountain Historical Society

I would take that as a pretty fair statement of Tom’s opinion, that he sees the Peralta stones as frauds, but you are sure free to write to Tom directly and perhaps he feels otherwise in private or has changed his mind since writing up the website information.

Perhaps despite having expended thousands of words over the last days trying to explain why I do not view the Peralta stones as genuine, I have failed to make the reasons clear. I will try to encapsulate it into a briefer form, citing only my strongest reasons for doubt.

What is my strongest reason for doubting that the Peralta stones are genuine? They were used for years by men to search the Superstitions and never found any lost mine. That alone is fair evidence they are either not maps or are erroneous in some major detail, like the actual location of the mine(s).

What is my strongest reason for doubting the legends of Peralta lost gold mines in the Superstitions? The fact that the known and documented Peraltas filed legal claims for the two mines they owned and operated, one well before the 1847 date alleged for the legend and one well after this in the 1870s – so why would they have risked having their hard won gains seized by the Mexican authorities, not to mention the danger from hostile Indians when they could have simply filed claims on the group and gained full legal title, which might have afforded them some extra protection from the local presidio as well? It is simply not logical, plus we have no records of any Peralta gold produced from mines located in the Superstitions while we DO know of Peralta gold being produced from an excellent mine in the Bradshaws and silver from their mine in the south.

That is not to exclude the many other doubts I have raised and you wish to dismiss as so much “lame” argument, since you prefer to make leaps from A to B to Z when the evidence just will not make the connection beyond A to B. You also said

you will find that I amd the only one that has shown any real evidence of their history!

Not exactly true, only if you classify ONLY what you have posted as “real” while anything from anyone else is false. I have said that I have not spent the amount of time you obviously have on these mystery stones, for the simple reason that they were unconvincing to me when I first saw them and you did the research because you were interested in them.

I do not wish to cast aspersions on Bob Corbin and – or Tom Kollenborn as I respect both men; however before you accept either opinion as more worthy than your own, keep in mind that neither of these good men have been lucky enough to have found the Lost Dutchman nor any of the legendary Peralta mines. Try and find two experts in epigraphy (stone inscriptions) who can agree completely on the Kensignton Runestone, expert opinion is helpful but for me is not the final word on issues that are so non-clear-cut, your own opinion based on your own research should carry more weight with you than that of any expert who may or may not have a hidden agenda or personal bias that we are unaware of. Where stone engravings are concerned, you will find that many are highly controversial and experts cannot agree on them. These stones sure seem to be in that category and will be until it can be proven beyond doubt whether genuine or frauds. I am not an unreasonable person and usually can be swayed by intelligent discussion and or evidence, but I am beginning to wonder about how flexible you are.

Now you have made yet another connection, leaping from A to B – with my ‘handle’ being Oroblanco and her handle being Mrs Oroblanco, why would you think that must be my wife? (heh heh) Yes that is her, not sure she “hates” any politician but is unhappy with quite a few including the very top and down to locals too. She does keep her political posts in the political forum, which is where they belong.

Oroblanco

PS I do not wish to give the impression that the Peralta stones can not possibly be real, it is possible they are genuine; I will not be disappointed in the least to see them proved real by the find of a long lost gold mine or three.

“We must find a way, or we will make one.” –Hannibal Barca

 

[gollum]

OK Oro,

I'm not sure (it's getting late again 3AM) if I related the story yet or not, but here is this part: At one point in the mid to late sixties, a lawsuit arose as to the ownership of the Peralta Stones (the state was trying to take them from MOEL Inc.[I think]). Robert Corbin worked for the US Attorney's Office in Phoenix. A colleague knew he had an interest in the LDM, and asked him if he wanted to talk to the FBI Agents that were there to deliver the test results.

The FBI Tests came back that the inscriptions were AT LEAST 100 years old. At that point, the State of Arizona took possession of the stones, and handed them over to the A.L. Flagg Foundation (The Arizona Mineral and Mining Museum Foundation now) for safekeeping. Since that time, the stones have always been in the possession of the State of Arizona.

So, the story is a little different from EVERY version I have read. Corbin didn't SEND in the Stones for testing, and at the time of the lawsuit, he worked for the US Attys Office in Phoenix (only later did he become Atty Gen for the State). He did, though, get the test result information first hand from the FBI Agents who were delivering the stones and the test results to the state.


Here are the words of Mr. Robert Corbin. The former Attorney General of the State of Arizona;

"It was approximately in the late 1960's, I believe, that I was at the
U.S. Attorneys office in Phoenix, when one of the Deputy U.S. Attorneys
told me that an FBI agent from the FBI laboratory in Washington DC was
in their office. Apparently, the Phoenix office had obtained the stone
maps to have them analyzed by the FBI laboratory to see if they were
recent fakes. He asked if I would like to speak with the agent since I
was interested in the Lost Dutchman Mine and I said I would. I spoke
with the agent and asked him what they had found in analyzing the stone
maps. He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred
years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps.

Bob Corbin"

Do I now believe them to be REAL? I am leaning to that side of the fence now. I firmly believe them to have been AT LEAST a hundred years old in the sixties. Mr. Corbin made mention of one other thing that still leaves me on the fence. The date the FBI gave for the inscriptions, allows for the possibility of the stones being made during the Peralta-Reavis Land Grant Fraud case, in the 1860s.

Because of this reply I got about Bob Corbin, I have sent emails to The Arizona State University Rogers College of Law, The A.L. Flagg Foundation, and the FBI FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) Office. I have requested official copies of the tests done on the stones. Since it was the State of Arizona who sued for possession of the stones under the Antiquities Act, the records (including test results) should be public.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Gollium, about the so called "GOLD TOOTH", hmmmm seems to me that I have read of many so called whites living with different tribes. Is it inconceivable that one may have been with the Pimas when 'they" were massacred, not a group of Mexicans, least of all, any Peraltas??

@##$#@$#$ You and Oro Blanco are on my list, NOW I have to do some research, before I was just vaguely curious now??

Send me a picture of yourself for your effigy, I already have the pins..

Till Eulenspiegle -- Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Hey Oro,

You're just going to have to quote the spot where Tom K calls the stones a cruel hoax. I just went through every page on that website, and couldn't find it.

About the Ben Edwards Story: You seem to have skipped over the part about where they found the rock wedge, and the "well used" pry bar in and amongst the skeletons. Were the Pimas miners?

Also, you seemed to have missed this part: " he found another skeleton under a jojoba bush. These remains were - or at least had been - fully clothed. Underneath the skeleton he found a knife and an untanned cowhide pouch filled with hand-cobbed gold ore. Edwards began to see that a running battle had occurred, and he thought that the man with the gold ore had crawled off wounded to hide in the brush and died unseen by friends or Apache. "

Now, the discovery of mining tools and a fully dressed skeleton would suggest to me that they were not Pima Indians. The fact that there were NO large groups of Anglos reported missing, sort of narrows down who the skeletons could have belonged to.

Now this, and the fact that the Peraltas Family History states that the family was destroyed by an Indian Massacre in the mid 1800s in the North, would say to me that there is some truth to the Peralta Massacre Story.

And Jose,

You seem to have mised the part about the mining tools and the fully dressed skeleton as well. Does that sound very Pima-Like? Not to me!

Best,

Mike