The 'La Vierge du Bon Port ' One of the richest French shipwrecks never found.

[Crow]

Greeting to all interested in shipwrecks.

Here one shipwreck mind candy that has been forgotten to history. It was an interesting missing wreck for here eager to find more out about?

Wreck site website claimed the following .

This East Indiaman is probably one of the richest French vessel ever lost at sea and never found. The La Vierge du Bon Port was bought in Saint Malo in 1664, armed with 30 cannons and 300 tons of cargo space. Her captain, Truchot de la Chesnaie, from Saint Malo also, was commanding this vessel on a special order from the Minister Colbert, a dedicated Minister for the Marine Affairs, appointed by Louis Xiv, the Sun King.

This mission was the first expedition to Madagascar for the creation of a strong colony on the island, under the privileged of the newly created French East India Company. For this purpose, four ships were being prepared in Le Havre, La Rochelle and Saint Malo and gathered together at Brest for a cost to the Company of more than 500,000 Livres.With 230 elite crew and 288 passengers (soldiers, high rank civil servants, etc.), the little squadron left Brest on 7 of March 1665, and reach Madagascar on the 10th of July, for the "Le Saint Paul" and at the end of August, "Le Taureau" and "La Vierge du Bon Port" also reach their destination. The goals for this first expedition, were principally to send to France, in the shortest times, a ship fully loaded with a large variety of samples which could be found in Madagascar and the islands in its vicinity.

It was vital to show to everybody a first good result for the future expeditions.On the 20th of February 1666, the ship "La Vierge du Bon Port", full of goods and merchandise, was ready to sails on a voyage back to Le Havre, in France. Unfortunately, several months later, on the 9th of July, her voyage almost complete d, she was attacked by an English corsair and sunk off Guernsey, with her 120 crew, the remaining survivors taken as prisoners and brought to England. With this event, perished all hopes for a rich colony to be raised and the commercial loss resulting from this expedition was immense, as all her treasures were lost forever.

She sank fast, and thirty six English crewmen drowned while trying to save the treasure.Although the initial report valued her cargo and contents at £1,500,000, a Channel Islander stated that this was a gross underestimate, since one chest alone of precious stones known to be aboard was valued at £40,000, and ambergris and other things were equal to a further £400,000. No record exists of any salvage on the wreck, so her remains probably lie on the seabed near the Channel Isles, awaiting discovery by some future generation of treasure seekers or salvage divers.

So there you are amigos the basic story with the hype included.

It will be interesting to see what information can be shaken lose.

Crow

 

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[Crow]

In digging a little deeper...

I have found a reference to the plunder and shipwreck in King Charles the first Calendar of state papers.

Crow

 

[Crow]

HMS Orange (1665) was a 32 -gun fifth rate captures from the Dutch navy in 1665 and lost in 1671. She was the ship that engaged 1666 and sank the ship "La Vierge du Bon Port off Guernsey.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Regardless of the cargo? how far from Guernsey this action took place?

Crow

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

 

[Crow]

The French East India Company (French: Compagnie française pour le commerce des Indes orientales) was a joint-stock company founded in France on 1 September 1664 to compete with the English (later British) and Dutch trading companies in the East Indies.

The French East India Company is tied to The La Vierge du Bon Port was formed in 1664, but it was so closely tied with the state that its fortunes rose and fell with the careers of ministers and turns of politics. It was not until after 1720 that its fortunes revived rapidly.

As you could imagine set back of losing the The La Vierge du Bon Port for investors and backers of the project.

Until this time, the the French stake in India was not great enough to warrant the English fighting over it, so the two companies declared neutrality. However, between 1720 and 1740, the French Company's trade increased to ten times its value until it was nearly half the size of the English Company. The French Company now presented an economic threat to the English Company.

This threat was exacerbated by two wholly European wars : the War of Austrian Succession (1740-1748) and the Seven Years War (1756-1763), in which England and France were on opposite sides. The two Companies, backed by their respective states, went to war in India. The ensuing conflicts were known as the Carnatic Wars.

In 1746 the French captured Madras but the British exchanged this for Cape Breton Island in North America in 1748. The French and English then fought over Indian territory, aiding rival princes and governors, until the French were soundly defeated in 1760. Pondicherry fell and the power of the French in India was effectively ended, although a brief resurgence occurred in 1782 under Admiral de Suffren.

The French colonies in India remained separate from British India until Independence came in 1947 and the French voluntarily ceded its former colonies to the new Indian state.

I have searching try to find the earliest records of The French East India Company is tied to The La Vierge du Bon Port. To tried to find out more.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Searching through the Les archives de la Compagnie française des Indes orientales migh pructive at least getting an idea of the cargo that was shipped back to France!

Ah joys of research amigo the mistiming document or surviving date range is the one you need to find Always!!!!!!!

missed by one year how frustrating. !

Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is patent from the king of France for the company.

A little more detail on the back ground on the the Les archives de la Compagnie française des Indes orientales.

Ah1 ha! with little dogged determination old Crow with sticky beak found thousands of pages to go through of accounts.
Recueil de pieces, mansctities et impimees sur la Compagnie des ines, depuis son establishment en 1664, Jusqu'en 1723..

Will we find a reference to the cargo of the The La Vierge du Bon Port?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Just an example of how hard it is searching for the records. it is in archaic French from the 17th century with scrawling writing. That makes a doctors handwriting look legit-able.

Crow

 

[Crow]

The captain Truchot de La Chesnaie died in captivity at the island of Wight and Monsieur Souchu de Rennefort, High Secretary of île Dauphine (Madagascar), returning to France, was released in 1667.

There may be correspondences from the captain or the high secretary still in existence to the French east India company giving more details on the location where the ship sank?

Crow

 

[Crow]

From the English report:

… On the 6th instant, here arrived His Majesties Shipp the "Orange", captain Gunman Commander, whoe having about Guernze, ben in fight with a French ship, which came from the Red Sea and the Isle of Madagascar, very richly laden upon account of the East India Company of Fraunce, belonging to St. Malo her ladinge did consist of cloth of gold, silk, amber grease, gould, pearls, precious stones, corall, hides wax and other commodities of great value. And by the Master Monsieur La Shenue of St. Malo declared to be worth above 100.000 pounds sterling.

After a long dispute with the "Orange", the men falinge to plundringe, not regarding to looke after the leakes, shee did sinck and 36 of our men drowned by the overlading them selves with treasure not able to swim. 2 more of our men killed in the feight. Of the French weare drowned and slaine above 40 – 33 prisoners taken remayninge onboard the "Orange".

The said frigat brought under her conduct from Guernze 5 prizes, formerly taken by the "Richmond" under conduct of captain Nevett… The Lord preserve us and the Kingdome from our blod thirsty enemyes and graunt victorie to our naval forces, that both Kinge and people may rejoice and render thancks and praises to God which amongst other things are the dayly prayers of me that is Sir Your Humble servant John Lyshe.


Crow

 

[treasurediver]

Regardless of the cargo? how far from Guernsey this action took place?

View attachment 2130569

Crow

Thank you Crow, for the interesting story. This chart is beautiful and gives so much information.

 

[treasurediver]

Searching through the Les archives de la Compagnie française des Indes orientales migh pructive at least getting an idea of the cargo that was shipped back to France!

Ah joys of research amigo the mistiming document or surviving date range is the one you need to find Always!!!!!!!

View attachment 2130583
missed by one year how frustrating. !

Crow

For research in French archives ask Patrik Lize.

 

[Crow]

For research in French archives ask Patrik Lize.

Thanks for the tip.

Sadly, I will get little help off them these days. I am apparently on the nose with the French these days. The wild accusations against me are not true. They had their chance to make a deal they squandered it. They got their fingers burnt for trying to be too greedy. They had ten years to get their crap together and they didn't.

My guess they will never ever see a cent from that gold. Amigo. I am retired and I have no longer have a need of them. And they know that. And they cannot say anything without them exposing their own dodgy dealings. And in their arrogance, they thought they was the cat, and I was the mouse? But it was the mouse, that got away with the cheese!

Thanks, amigo, for the tip. I am just spending a lazy wet Saturday afternoon. Posting a thread on shipwreck hopefully interesting enough to dare people to dream a little? A next generation of treasure seeker to give the powers to be hell, following their dreams?

I have new life now. I am just slowly weaning myself off my old life. Part of me clings to the past as it was a big part of my life, But i still have at least 20 years ahead of me. I will not be waiting for god. I will be living every breathing moment enjoying the pampering comfort of a beautiful women and living the life of luxury like all old pirates should amigo. Old raggedy old crow that hit every branch on the way down when he fell out of the ugly tree. Still cannot believe how I managed to bumble my way through it all. Taking the money and run.

Crow

 

[treasurediver]

Ah, I understand. You had to deal with the Tzar of the French shipwrecks. Michel L' Hour

 

[treasurediver]

Since you have no further interest in the "La Vierge du Bon Port", why don't we use that shipwreck as an example what could be done with such an interesting target?
Just for fun and the benefit of our fellow Tnet members? Maybe some of them would want to pitch in with their knowledge?

How could we build a hypothetical business plan for "La Vierge du Bon Port"?
Let's say we start with the cost.
How much would it cost to complete the initial archival research?
With initial I mean the info needed to define if the whole project could be feasible.
To determine the cost of a search, we would need to define a search area.
This region is known for strong tidal currents and severe storms.
When is the best season to work?
What would be the estimate of downtime due to the weather during the best season?
Where would be the home port for the logistics?
Does a side scan have a chance to see the wreck? What with all the fish trawlers plowing the bottom for the last hundred years?
What are the chances of our shipwreck having been scattered over miles by the trawler nets?
What about the hundred or so other shipwrecks within the search area? How much time would we waste on them?
What would be the minimum vessel and equipment needed? At what daily cost?

This post is already getting too long, and we have not even 1% of all the questions that need an answer before we know if a project would be feasible.
Should we continue? Is anybody even interested? Remember dear treasure hunter friends, this exercise would be a model for every other shipwreck lying on the bottom of the oceans.
They say there are about 3,000,000 shipwrecks out there.

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Crow, mouse got the cheese? Well done...

 

[Crow]

Since you have no further interest in the "La Vierge du Bon Port", why don't we use that shipwreck as an example what could be done with such an interesting target?
Just for fun and the benefit of our fellow Tnet members? Maybe some of them would want to pitch in with their knowledge?

How could we build a hypothetical business plan for "La Vierge du Bon Port"?
Let's say we start with the cost.
How much would it cost to complete the initial archival research?
With initial I mean the info needed to define if the whole project could be feasible.
To determine the cost of a search, we would need to define a search area.
This region is known for strong tidal currents and severe storms.
When is the best season to work?
What would be the estimate of downtime due to the weather during the best season?
Where would be the home port for the logistics?
Does a side scan have a chance to see the wreck? What with all the fish trawlers plowing the bottom for the last hundred years?
What are the chances of our shipwreck having been scattered over miles by the trawler nets?
What about the hundred or so other shipwrecks within the search area? How much time would we waste on them?
What would be the minimum vessel and equipment needed? At what daily cost?

This post is already getting too long, and we have not even 1% of all the questions that need an answer before we know if a project would be feasible.
Should we continue? Is anybody even interested? Remember dear treasure hunter friends, this exercise would be a model for every other shipwreck lying on the bottom of the oceans.
They say there are about 3,000,000 shipwrecks out there.

Sounds like a good idea. hypothetically. yet there is much to learn before you can start to build an effective workable business plan. it would be a great eye opener for people thinking salvaging shipwrecks is easy and quick way to make a buck. in reality it is money pit. The deeper the wreck the deeper the pockets you need.

You make some excellent points.

How could we build a hypothetical business plan for "La Vierge du Bon Port"? Let's say we start with the cost.
Before we can come up with estimate of that we have know what we are dealing with? For example you are not going to spend 5 million dollars on a 2 million dollar wreck for example. It ain't going to happen!

So at this stage it comes down to research research and more research. For example there is enough sources claim that ship was was plundered by crew of HMS Orange. 36 sailor perished plundering the vessel as it sank.

Channel Islander stated that this was a gross underestimate, since one chest alone of precious stones known to be aboard was valued at £40,000, fact or exaggeration?

That tells us two things. One: Some of the cargo may of been transferred to the Orange. So what we dealing with a partly plundered ship a three quarters plundered ship?

Two: The sea state was calm enough for ship to ship transfer of prisoners and perhaps some of the most valuable treasure was already taken off the sinking ship.

That is a good sign that ship did not break up disintegrating leaving a large debris field. So I suspect the wreck will be relatively compact and intact as it hit the sea floor.

But that does not take into account later fishing net disturbance, tidal surges and current on the sea bed. The question remains The loss of the ship was if west of Guernsey?

The question springs to mind how did they know they west of Guernsey? Was Guernsey in the east was in sight where the sinking happened? This might give us an idea of the search perimeters to work from? So this is why research is critical before building any business plan. we have to understand the rules of the game.

Researching is time consuming and costly. Yet ultimately what information discovered could set the boundaries in developing a effective business plan.

To make a hypothetical business plan it would be based on the assumption for example the British government agrees to such a project at 80 percent split with salvor baring all research and recovery costs and 20 percent split to the UK Government.. And the French government do not give legal challenge to the salvage project. For plundering a war grave of a navy vessel as signed by international agreements, in which the UK is signee. And the wreck site falls with in the legal jurisdiction of the UK.

Then if we could estimate the value of cargo in today's value to come up on workable figure to work from? Without more details on the cargo it hard to put and estimate on value in reality you can only put melt value anything else above is a bonus.

Then working on those those hypothetical perimeters the fun and games really start.

Crow

 

[Crow]

A business plan in short is a formal written document containing the goals of a business, the methods for attaining those goals, and the time-frame for the achievement of the goals.

One thing to understand that it is formal document to work from a series of business benchmarks within the business plan. I nickname the ten commandments.

1. research agreement plan
2. legal agreement plan
3. financing agreement plan.
5 searching agreement plan.
6 recovery agreement plan.
7 preservation agreement plan.
8 sales and marketing agreement plan
9 taxation asset liquidation agreement plan.
10. Time management plan.

All of the above are important amigo. Usually in any such agreement with obtaining permission of a government they will want to deal with a legal business entity, a company. that company has to be formally recognized in dealing with the country in question. Such companies are created for a project and they liquidated after the project is completed assets transferred and dispersed through another.

I have soft a spot for Delaware! With registering companies there? But having the companies offices offshore British virgin islands. There are brokers able to set up offshore entities and accounts.
Since the Channel island are a tax have design for the wealthy UK elite not to pay tax. I would open a shelf company there in the channel islands. then market project for percentage of artifacts for museum in the channel island to garner local support. A bit of PR never goes astray.

With in your business plan you have many people involved in various parts of business plan. Each have various skill for their assigned task at hand with in the business plan. There are no free rides for anyone. They had a task to perform if they fail at those tasks then they are replaced.

I always saw Odyssey as a poor business plan as they burned through too much money and too much litigation? too much lag time in between costing too money between each project. A lot of it was other peoples money! Treasure hunting will never be a full time occupation as ongoing operating costs will drive you bankrupt. You get in get out do not linger. lingering does not make money.

Treasure hunting is gamble there is time when need to understand there is a time to hold and a time to fold. You roll the dice when the odds are in your favor.

I came from mining exploration back ground mining is dirty business and ruthless! Fortunes can be made and fortunes lost. Treasure hunting on land or sea is no different. Its a calculated risk and gamble. Even the best get their fingers burnt its the nature of the beast.

I lost a lot of money at present on lithium market as prices have tanked. six figure's. Yet as much as it has hurt. I diversified the risk. Real estate, shares and other projects made more doubling my net worth last year. Backers of high risk treasure hunting projects should diverse their investment to cover their losses. Due diligence.

Anyone who puts all their proverbial eggs in one basket is destined for failure. Investors in high risk treasure hunting projects expect high returns with such projects. Which is natural. everyone is attached to their hard earned money. High risk deserves big rewards.

Yet being clear in the risks involved. there is no come back from an investor saying they was deceived. A business plan should give a realistic assessment of what goals that could be achieved and an estimation of such returns and a time frame for those returns.

In the case of 'La Vierge du Bon Port' we are at present at the mercy of not knowing the exact value we are dealing with thus making a commercial business plan hard to draft based on an estimate.

Crow.

 

[Crow]

If you look a Carl Allen's treasure hunting business plan, in the Bahamas?

Carl Allen's net worth is estimated to be around $400 million. He sold Heritage Bag, the company he helmed as CEO, for $300 million in 2016. Carl Allen's success highlights his exceptional business acumen and strategic investments.

He has no investors entirely self funded. his cash cow is development of walkers Key. for high end fish tourism and diving in cooperation of Bahamanian government.

The Maravillas was one of the great treasure-laden Spanish galleons. It was unusual because it was transporting a double cargo: both its own consignment of silver, as well as silver salvaged from the wreck of the Jesús María de la Limpia Concepción that was supposed to supply the 1654 fleet but sank off Ecuador in October 1654. The majority of the treasure an estimated 3.5 million pieces of eight. was salvaged between 1656 and the early 1990s.

An investor business plan for sale of artifact would never have worked there.

His treasure is developing real estate on Walker key into a luxury game fishing hub and tourist resort. his hunt for treasure along debris trail of Maravillas. For a museum at walkers key. Value adds to his tourist developments. So he not profiting directly from the commercial sale of artifacts themselves. They belong to the Bahamian state.

That type of arrangement cannot be ever achieved for most salvors or shipwreck sites. The channel islands such arrange would be impossible. So his business plan was tailor to a unique set of circumstances. Each project shipwreck sites has its own challenges. So there is no one size fits all business plan.

Crow