The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Interested Party in UK]

It would seem that the old thread where we were discussing legends, history, traditions and stories regarding the Apache and the Southwest, has been closed.

Not a problem.

Thought I'd start a topic specific one where we can discuss such things to our heart's content.

Chaps (Injunbro in particular), did the Apache both in peace and at war, really not consider gold and its mining, to be effective in using to purchase whatever they needed and to be considered as a 'tool' in discussions and agreements signed with either the Mexicans or Americans?

There is so much evidence that points to both ends of the scale but it would be interesting to garner a few thoughts on this forum.


IPUK

 

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[somehiker]

I also found much of what Iinjunbro had to say quite interesting, and have a couple of questions of my own to ask.

(1)....why did some, or all ?, apache consider fish to be poisonous ?
Even though other tribes, such as the Pima, did not.

(2)....you made mention of a sacred cave and burial ground within your last posting...."I suppose you're referring to the sacred cave in the Superstitions but the Hataali graves aren't exactly in that cave but nearby."
Since the cave itself is not the burial place, was there a massacre involved, or some other common cause involved in the deaths of those buried in that particular location ?

(2b).... What is the reason(s) that this cave is considered sacred ?
Perhaps long standing historical ritual use by the Hataali ?

 

[markmar]

SH

For the (2b) ... Are you aware about Chicomoztoc ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Prior to the European invasion of this continent, the Native Americans had an idyllic life. They moved freely about the country with all their worldly possessions on their back or pulled on travois' by their dogs. They made war on other tribes over better hunting grounds or better women. Few reached the age of 40 while famine and starvation were common occurrences.

Narcotics were in common use, but who's to say it was a problem for them? When stronger civilizations moved in, they were doomed. It took a very long time to end the Apache wars, as they were few in numbers and could live off the land in very inhospitable environments. It's an age old story.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real of Tayopa]

You pretty well wrapped it up Don Jose

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Not so sure that the Natives had an ideal life and were entirely happy with their lot. They moved around alright, but not all over; simply within 'their' land(s). Most battles fought were over hunting rights and places with good watering holes and natural food supplies. They stopped being dependent on dogs to carry burdens and had an insatiable desire for good horses after they were introduced to the Americas. The fearsome Comanche made their youngest learn to ride before they even learned to walk properly. The Apache used their mounts as transport as well as for food in emergencies (which was often given their precarious way of life).

It might be said that the Apache Wars took longer to conclude, assuming that those living like their ancestors did still 'free' and as 'wild' well into the 20th century in the Sierra Madres never believed that the "war" was over for them, still yearned and hankered for the former way of life. They simply refused to admit defeat under any circumstances. Many tribes large and small, threw their lot in first with the Spanish, then the Mexicans and finally the Anglos because they felt resistance was futile and there was something to be gained in taking the "white man's path."

Even the Chiricahua that were Prisoners of War in Oklahoma decades after Chief Naiche's and Geronimo's surrender, talked about making a mistake in taking General Miles' word for the truth at their final meeting in 1886, and instead bitterly regretted not dying fighting in the mountains like 'true' Apache.

I believe it is fair to say that such a small number of people rarely made such a massive impact over such a vast area and in such an unbelievable way.

When coming up towards launching a campaign against the Chiricahua after soundly beating, in some cases destroying, many other bands on natives in the Southwest in the 1870s, General Crook said, "we are facing the tigers of the human species."


IPUK

 

[Cubfan64]

At some point I would love to add to this thread and ask questions as well - unfortunately as it is, RL is getting too much in the way but hopefully next year will prove to be a little easier

Just wanted to say I really look forward to the discussions that come up here and hope this thread is continue - I would love to hear input from Native Americans (specifically Apache of course) as this continues.

Thanks for starting this thread.

Paul

 

[Real of Tayopa]

G'd afternoon IPUK That quote from G Miles "General Crook said, "we are facing the tigers of the human species."was in reference to their viciousness, Plus small bands could live in obscurity in the sierras of Mexico and
avoid an army which needed extensive supplies to operate. They seldom engaged in an open frontal fight, since they had learned of attrition rate - for every fighter they lost it took approx 18 plus years to replace. They were not the skilled tacticians often given credit for., but small groups that were highly mobile, similar to the american guerrillas in the islands occupied by the Japanese during WWII

You must differentiate between the bronco Apache and the majority of them, who were living in peace. . For over 400 years they raided into mexico, which never was their territory. They excelled in viscous torture for nothing except to torture, this caused the reprecussions in the form of peaceful Apache slaughters.

Here is a picture of typical Mexican Sierra territory, you can see how easily a small band of viscous Apache renegades can loose themselves, and how difficult it was for the military to move and supply . It is not like your Britland country side.

To enlarge picture to approx normal, double left click on picture

 

[azdave35]

Not so sure that the Natives had an ideal life and were entirely happy with their lot. They moved around alright, but not all over; simply within 'their' land(s). Most battles fought were over hunting rights and places with good watering holes and natural food supplies. They stopped being dependent on dogs to carry burdens and had an insatiable desire for good horses after they were introduced to the Americas. The fearsome Comanche made their youngest learn to ride before they even learned to walk properly. The Apache used their mounts as transport as well as for food in emergencies (which was often given their precarious way of life).

It might be said that the Apache Wars took longer to conclude, assuming that those living like their ancestors did still 'free' and as 'wild' well into the 20th century in the Sierra Madres never believed that the "war" was over for them, still yearned and hankered for the former way of life. They simply refused to admit defeat under any circumstances. Many tribes large and small, threw their lot in first with the Spanish, then the Mexicans and finally the Anglos because they felt resistance was futile and there was something to be gained in taking the "white man's path."

Even the Chiricahua that were Prisoners of War in Oklahoma decades after Chief Naiche's and Geronimo's surrender, talked about making a mistake in taking General Miles' word for the truth at their final meeting in 1886, and instead bitterly regretted not dying fighting in the mountains like 'true' Apache.

I believe it is fair to say that such a small number of people rarely made such a massive impact over such a vast area and in such an unbelievable way.

When coming up towards launching a campaign against the Chiricahua after soundly beating, in some cases destroying, many other bands on natives in the Southwest in the 1870s, General Crook said, "we are facing the tigers of the human species."


IPUK

i dont think the apaches were tougher than any of the other fierce tribes (sioux..comanche...yaqui .etc)..sometimes the powers that be like to stretch wars out..take Vietnam for example..they stretched that out for 15 years..also the chicken **** war we are in now in the middle east...either of those wars could have been won in a month..if we would have went over and unleashed on them full force...there is alot of money to be made by alot of people during wartime...they dont call it a war economy for nothing ...the U.S. could have annihilated the apaches anytime they wanted to...they had a reason for stretching it out

 

[Interested Party in UK]

G'd afternoon IPUK That quote from G Miles "General Crook said, "we are facing the tigers of the human species."was in reference to their viciousness, Plus small bands could live in obscurity in the sierras of Mexico and
avoid an army which needed extensive supplies to operate. They seldom engaged in an open frontal fight, since they had learned of attrition rate - for every fighter they lost it took approx 18 plus years to replace. They were not the skilled tacticians often given credit for., but small groups that were highly mobile, similar to the american guerrillas in the islands occupied by the Japanese during WWII

You must differentiate between the bronco Apache and the majority of them, who were living in peace. . For over 400 years they raided into mexico, which never was their territory. They excelled in viscous torture for nothing except to torture, this caused the reprecussions in the form of peaceful Apache slaughters.

Here is a picture of typical Mexican Sierra territory, you can see how easily a small band of viscous Apache renegades can loose themselves, and how difficult it was for the military to move and supply . It is not like your Britland country side.

To enlarge picture to approx normal, double left click on picture


View attachment 1372615

Don,

I am fairly sure it, the quote from Crook that is, didn't refer to anything else other than the Chiricahua unwillingness to submit to reservation life and the end of their freedom as they knew it. They had actually lived in what is now northern Mexico, for pretty much as long as they had been living in Arizona and New Mexico. It was mainly the Chiricahua Apache southern bands. Also they were large enough initially and numbered in the low thousands for the best part of the mid - 19th century but the Mexican army could never make much headway against them.

I would say that training as an Apache warrior, was more rigorous than some of the training that the soldiers received that they came up against for the simple reason that it was a way of life for them. On the whole their mode of warfare enabled them to try and stay one step ahead of their enemies, of which there were plenty.

They killed for nothing but usually had seen their own killed or enslaved for nothing as well.

Of course there was those that had submitted to reservation life but to assume that apart from the very late 19th century it was only "bronco Apache", is erroneous.

The Chiricahua didn't manage to evade their captors for so long due to "the military moving and supplying", it was because they were the true experts of the land they inhabited and the only reason anyone came close to them was because of native scouts, usually the best results being achieved with Chiricahua ones even then.

The evidence from the time clearly shows that the Apache were a true force and menace that made their mark on both sides of the border in a way which far outweighed their numbers.

The books written by historians, ex-military men who campaigned against the Chiricahua and even civilians, attest to how other tribes were afraid of the Apache and a small band of warriors kept whole communities, villages, towns and even states in a constant state of fear and absolute terror.

In the final "Geronimo Campaign" of 1886, a full one-quarter of the US Army - 5,000 men - and the Mexican authorities of Sonora and Chihuahua, not to mention hundreds of scouts, trackers, bounty hunters and vigilantes, tried to apprehend a band of 40 'renegades' and the band still raided at will on both sides of the border.

Not an easy feat considering the pressure and constant fear of death they faced and having mostly women and children amongst their number.

Easy to see why the Apache and the Chiricahua in particular, were seen as masters of the mountains and deserts of the Southwest and northern Mexico for sooooo long....


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

i dont think the apaches were tougher than any of the other fierce tribes (sioux..comanche...yaqui .etc)..sometimes the powers that be like to stretch wars out..take Vietnam for example..they stretched that out for 15 years..also the chicken **** war we are in now in the middle east...either of those wars could have been won in a month..if we would have went over and unleashed on them full force...there is alot of money to be made by alot of people during wartime...they dont call it a war economy for nothing ...the U.S. could have annihilated the apaches anytime they wanted to...they had a reason for stretching it out

Including made to look like fools when they didn't see a single Apache in whole campaigns...?

 

[azdave35]

Including made to look like fools when they didn't see a single Apache in whole campaigns...?

i dont think politicians care how they look as long as they are getting rich

 

[cactusjumper]

Including made to look like fools when they didn't see a single Apache in whole campaigns...?

IP,

The Apache were masters of the hide and seek game. When you have soldiers on horseback searching millions of square miles for a very few Apache, just how likely were they to succeed? In the end, they lost their land. The only reason they didn't last longer, is that we worked out a deal with Mexico for both sides to pursue across the border. It's just simple history.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Injunbro]

Just found this thread.
IPUK: Apaches didn't generally consider gold mining to be worthwhile since to show up w/ gold got unwanted attention from Whites who were aching to grab a mine claim. Some placer gold was traded, especially for guns & ammo, but Apaches were transient & didn't spend enough time in any one area to protect a lode mine & they got too much attention from Whites as it was. Also they really didn't understand working w/ mercury or purifying it. Showing up w/ any amount of gold got too much attention no matter what your skin color.
Somehiker: Apaches have various legends or origin. One version is the came by boat from Mongolia & landed on the west coast where they ate fish from the Colorado River & got very sick from fish & fish eating became taboo. Another origin legend says they arrived in this present world by coming from the underworld through the sacred cave in the Sup's (similar to the Hopi origin legends. Hopis call the caves sepapus). The burial grounds for Hataalis is nearby but not in the cave. Personally I think the legend relates to their becoming more transient & less cave dwellers as the Earth dried up after the great flood. Rituals are performed @ the cave celebrating the coming to this present world.
Don Jose, I started to use your initials but ROT is too insulting (rattling your chain is fun but no insults): Apache roamed far enough south before White man arrived to describe jungles & banana trees. They often intermarried w/ Tarahumaris, that includes Mexico. There were no actual lines marking anyone's tribal areas.
AZDave: "the U.S. could have annihilated the apaches anytime they wanted to...they had a reason for stretching it out" While it's true many had a reason to keep the profitable Indian Wars going fighting Apaches was different than other northern Indians, others set up camp for the winter - the general method of conquering Indians was to wipe out their winters food. Apaches had weather that allowed them to move & resupply so the military resorted to the method of shooting women & children to weaken the tribe (some of those women & children were my family).
Cactus Jumper: Many of those 'hide & seek' methods are still taught among some Apaches today. Human nature hasn't changed an iota & those skills may be needed again... they were useful in WWII, Viet Nam & Desert Storm. I could (but won't) name Nde mercenaries using these skills around the world today, 1 is a relative.
All: There are good & bad among all peoples, then & now. Many Apaches today who live in this area who are descended from Broncos who simply assimilated into modern life. Some live on reservations, some took Mexican names, I know 1 family who adopted the name of an Italian trader. Many have crossed w/ Whites (Mom married a Dutchman, I married a Dane/Swede, etc.).
Interesting discussion, thanks for starting it IPUK.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Injunbro,

Glad you've made it!


Now we can really get debating and sharing information and hearing some of your wonderful experiences amongst the most intriguing peeps to have inhabited their part of the planet.


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

i dont think politicians care how they look as long as they are getting rich

That still doesn't detract from the fact that the US Army's usual mode of warfare was useless against the Apache up until they needed "an Apache to catch an Apache."


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IP,

The Apache were masters of the hide and seek game. When you have soldiers on horseback searching millions of square miles for a very few Apache, just how likely were they to succeed? In the end, they lost their land. The only reason they didn't last longer, is that we worked out a deal with Mexico for both sides to pursue across the border. It's just simple history.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

CJ,


It is your prerogative if you wish to reduce the complexities of what was taking place at that time to "simple history".

I would say things were a tad more complicated.


The soldiers were indeed on horseback; so were the Apache. I'm not sure it really was "millions of square miles" they were searching as, before launching any campaign, intelligence played its part so one did simply not set out with the hope of coming across Apaches off the reservation.

In the end, they lost their lands and freedoms alright, many lost their lives as well. But as Dakhlugie related to Eve Ball in the 1950s: "The Chiricahua bands still 'out' knew it was a lost cause and futile...., but that still didn't stop them..."

Also, you say that they "didn't last longer due to the cross border deal with Mexico." I believe you are referring to the 'official' end of the Apache Wars with Chief Naiche's and Geronimo's surrender in 1886. There was still Apache living 'free', albeit in a vastly reduced sense of the word, in the Sierra Madres well into the middle of the 20th century.

We have this survival expert here in the UK called Ray Mears. He makes various documentaries about the most difficult places for human beings to survive across the globe. He knows his stuff. Not sure if his programmes are ever aired in the US. Anyway, he went to Arizona and showed how the Apache survived and even prospered in this most unforgiving of terrains, and he showed their methods and how their were/are so innovative in using what was around them in helping them to perfect a way of life where others would simply flounder in a matter of days. He also stated that some methods have been incorporated into UK special forces' training in how to survive in mountainous and desert areas. In addition, he stated that these guys knew their stuff when it came to living in such conditions. No sentimentality - simply stating the facts.

Of course their way of live was going to end in the face of such overwhelming odds. I for one, cannot help but admire their will to keep going. I am not justifying any of the atrocities on both sides nor condemning the truly abominable harshness of the times, but for some, the spirit of freedom is in itself something to reflect on.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

INJUBRO..I accuse you of racial discrimination no OIRISH ??

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK,I equate the Apache with the 'terrorist' of today, they obviously believe in thier philosophy to the point that they are willing to commit suicide in it's name, Why can't the military get rid of them? Incidentally most of their TRIBE lived peacefully.

How are the Apache of today faring in your country ?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

INJUBRO..I accuse you of racial discrimination no OIRISH ?? Incidently, that is R D T not ROT, hmmmmm, come to think of it --------------------