PINTO CREEK

[cactusjumper]

There are many old stories that place the LDM in the Pinto Creek/Iron Mountain area. There is a pit mine there that matches many of the clues that have been told about the LDM. Someone worked that mine for three years, summer only, in the late 1990's. It is claimed that the mine was the old Silver Chief Mine. One has to wonder why that fiction is being repeated by many well known and knowledgeable people in the Dutch Hunting Community......Most notably, the folks who have worked the mine.

If the pit mine is not the Silver Chief, what mine is it? The entire area is highly mineralized.

Here is the evidence that the pit mine is not the Silver Chief:

Three books that give a good account of the pit mine and the surrounding area are:

"Jacob's Trail...." by Jesse James Feldman. Starting on page 255, Jesse writes about the Rogers Mining District. Some important points are that, "Michael Rogers was a mining partner of the Starar brothers (Jacob and Andrew), who were neighbors and were somehow related to Jacob Waltz."

From the same book: "Mines of the Rogers District largely produced silver; however miners also found some gold. The silver veins contained a small percentage of gold, and, high-grade gold ore existed in the portions of the veins that were rich in quartz."

Jessie published a fine book and I would recommend it to anyone interested in the legends of the Superstition Mountains.

The other two books which give a good account of the, so called, Silver Chief are: "Superstition Wilderness Trails East...." by Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart, starting on page 272. "Lost El Dorado Of Jacob Waltz" by Jack San Felice, starting on page 115, is another detailed description of the pit mine and the clues that are all over the area. Both of these books are a must have. If you don't have them yet, get them.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Cubfan64]

Joe, do you know where the Silver Chief no. 1 was located?

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

The Silver Chief no. 2's Notice of Location states that "on the South East End, it endlines with the Silver Chief Claim." The reason I put "AREA OF THE SILVER CHIEF" on my map, is because it's an approximation. On the other hand, #2 touches the Silver Chief's boundries, so it is pretty hard to stretch that southern boundry to where the pit mine is.....Right?

Dave told me he has been to the original claim. It might be that he can give you the exact location, or even take you there. Wouldn't hurt to ask. If he is unable to do that, I may know someone else who would make the trip with you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Cactusjumper wrote

There are many old stories that place the LDM in the Pinto Creek/Iron Mountain area. There is a pit mine there that matches many of the clues that have been told about the LDM.

What does this have to do with Pinto Creek? Pinto Creek is north of that area.

Cactusjumper wrote

If the pit mine is not the Silver Chief, what mine is it? The entire area is highly mineralized.

Are you saying that if this particular mine is NOT the Silver Chief, then it must be the LDM? Based on what info I have, all of the mines of that area are/were silver mines except one, which was copper. It would not be queer to find a gold-enriched zone at some level in a silver mine, as this occurred in several silver mines in the Tombstone district. Waltz's ore was very low in silver. So based on the info I have seen, there is no reason to expect Waltz's gold mine to be among the silver mines of the Rogers district though it is not impossible. What is there in a name? Would it matter if a rich mine were NOT the Dutchman's mine, if it made you rich? It would not matter to me.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

That's a good question. I am going by an old map.......

Don't believe I said the pit mine "must be" anything. As for there being a rich gold deposit in the area, you probably should reread my first post. As you have said, it's possible. I still say the people who worked that mine in the late 90's, didn't do it for silver.

See you soon,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

I did not see you say that it MUST be anything, only that is what you were hinting at; hence my question. As interesting as the old map is, even on it, Rogers Trough is not connected with what it defines as Pinto creek. The version that has Waltz's mine connected with Pinto creek has it as rather a part of the same drainage.

Cactusjumper wrote

I still say the people who worked that mine in the late 90's, didn't do it for silver.

Do you know the assay reports for their ore? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

from what i know ,, no the LDM is not the Silver Chief .... IMHO

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

The Silver Chief no. 2's Notice of Location states that "on the South East End, it endlines with the Silver Chief Claim." The reason I put "AREA OF THE SILVER CHIEF" on my map, is because it's an approximation. On the other hand, #2 touches the Silver Chief's boundries, so it is pretty hard to stretch that southern boundry to where the pit mine is.....Right?

Dave told me he has been to the original claim. It might be that he can give you the exact location, or even take you there. Wouldn't hurt to ask. If he is unable to do that, I may know someone else who would make the trip with you.

Take care,

Joe

Ahh ok - thanks Joe - I mis-interpreted that part of the claim document. I understand it now.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,

I may have come across more confrontational than intended, I will explain why I am asking what leads Cactusjumper to conclude this pit mine is the LDM; first there are a number of mines in the Rogers district, including two that had both a shaft and a tunnel combined; there are even more in the nearby Pioneer district (which is where the famous Silver King is located) and it is possible to pick almost any of these mines and then match up several Dutchman clues to that site; however the ore would still not match. It is unlikely that a rich gold mine would be located in the same geologic location where silver veins occur - but NOT impossible. This is why I was asking about an assay report (I don't need to see it, just Joe's memory will suffice) and specifically the gold-to-silver ratio which would help us in deciding whether it is more likely the same as Waltz's ore or is dis-similar. Ideally an ore sample comparison would be my choice but this is unlikely, unless someone is willing to go out there and try to find a piece and I am not about to ask someone else to do what I am not willing to do.

Cactusjumper has hinted at this particular pit mine several times and stated that he is convinced - so I am asking to be convinced. What was it that tilted the balance for you Joe? Thank you in advance, and if you would rather not say, I will not pester you about this, nor will I be offended in any way.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I can't give all the reasons I am convinced but once again, most of the debate can be found here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I can't give all the reasons I am convinced but once again, most of the debate can be found here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

Take care,

Joe

Okay but that is a bit confusing; after all you did start this thread, and made the opening statements which led to the questions. The ore remains a major problem (in my view) and even the Bicknell clues which support that area, such as finding the traces of melted SILVER on the spade do not point to the type of ore Waltz had but more like the numerous silver mines known in that area. (Bicknell was apparently not aware of them) There is also the odd thing that prospectors were combing that area pretty heavily while Waltz was still alive and kicking; it seems that he would have certainly noticed if someone had found his mine, or even been digging around close to it. I see that you even mentioned that the dump of that pit mine has silver sulphides; this would not be a logical thing to find coming out of a gold mine.

I will read over the past discussion, but have to remain respectfully un-convinced so far.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Back around 1985, two men were taken up to the pit mine on horseback, by someone who had made some discoveries there. A few years ago, both of those men told me the story of that ride while sitting in my front room. I trust both men completely.

One of those men took this picture:

I asked him if he thought this ore came from the pit mine. His answer was, "I'm positive it did". They were also shown the two empty caches below the mine. The man who took them up there was "dying to open the mine". It was covered at the time. As you know, he (I assume) eventually did open it.

"There is also the odd thing that prospectors were combing that area pretty heavily while Waltz was still alive and kicking; it seems that he would have certainly noticed if someone had found his mine, or even been digging around close to it."

When my friends were taken up to view the pit mine.......it was sealed/covered.

Along with all of the other evidence I have provided, and some I have not, I am convinced the Pit Mine is likely the LDM. Others are less sure, but they don't have all of the information that I have.

I have a pretty good idea what they did with the ore, but it's pure speculation.

See you soon.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

"There is also the odd thing that prospectors were combing that area pretty heavily while Waltz was still alive and kicking; it seems that he would have certainly noticed if someone had found his mine, or even been digging around close to it."

When my friends were taken up to view the pit mine.......it was sealed/covered.

That is likely a century since the time when prospectors were working that district 'hot and heavy', anyone could have covered it even for safety reasons; the ore in your photo has a rather white look to the metal which (and I am NO expert) would hint that it has a high silver content but that could just be the way the light is reflecting.

Surely whomever mined the old pit, would have gotten an assay of the ore, as most ore-buyers often insist on it before they will purchase. Ever get a peek at an assay report? Thank you in advance,
Roy

 

[Cubfan64]

Cactusjumper wrote

"There is also the odd thing that prospectors were combing that area pretty heavily while Waltz was still alive and kicking; it seems that he would have certainly noticed if someone had found his mine, or even been digging around close to it."

When my friends were taken up to view the pit mine.......it was sealed/covered.

That is likely a century since the time when prospectors were working that district 'hot and heavy', anyone could have covered it even for safety reasons; the ore in your photo has a rather white look to the metal which (and I am NO expert) would hint that it has a high silver content but that could just be the way the light is reflecting.

Surely whomever mined the old pit, would have gotten an assay of the ore, as most ore-buyers often insist on it before they will purchase. Ever get a peek at an assay report? Thank you in advance,
Roy

Roy - I'd be shocked if the person hasn't had the samples compared with "dutchman ore," and I'll be equally shocked if documented proof of the comparison and the "whole story" are ever made public.

On the other hand, greed can do crazy things to people - not financial greed, but the "look at me, I found it" recognition type of greed. Some folks aren't satisfied with being the only ones who know something - they ever so slowly let word get out until their names have become intertwined with the legend itself. Maybe one day someone will bring forward absolutely unchallengeable proof - until then, we all keep searching .

I'm not personally 100% convinced the pit mine is/was the LDM, but I do agree that someone(s) went to A LOT of trouble and risked A LOT to get SOMETHING out of that mine for a number of years. Perhaps next spring I'll get a chance to go out there and look around a little myself and see if the surroundings convince me more.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy & Paul,

Just to be clear, I am not on the inside, information-wise, with the people who cleaned out that mine. My information is from the outside of that group but, none the less, pretty good. You may take that as reliable or not. I have no dog in that particular fight. Just passing along what I know.......and what I surmise.

I happen to know that Paul is correct when he hints that the people who did this are dying to shout out their discovery to the world. In fact, at least one of them has hinted, in public and on record, of the find. Many locals are aware of these facts.

The fact that the ore looks like it came from a silver deposit is a huge clue. The arguments as to the possibility of this occurring have been voice by myself, Roy and many others. There seems little doubt, IMHO, that the gold that was in the pit mine was contained in a chimney that came to the surface surrounded by a matrix of silver bearing ore.

Like many, many mines in Arizona, the ore was very rich near the surface and pinched out at a relatively shallow depth. I am not a mining man, but I doubt there is any way to know that is going to happen without working out the vein. Perhaps Roy knows if that is true.

I have never seen an assay report on the ore from the mine. I am pretty sure I have seen the ore. I am very sure, as positive as I can be without the process going through my hands, that the picture I posted is ore from the pit mine.

When Waltz was dying, it now seems likely that he did give some information about the mine to Dick Holmes. Don't believe he gave him any directions, but certain details about the mine have proved out. One, doubtful as I am, is that Waltz did cover the mine. That's the way it was when discovered....I am told.

That means all other stories of people finding the LDM are B.S. I have suspected that for a long time and, "Hell I Was There!"

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

joe

you spin a good story ..

no assay report ,, no sample of the ore .. no location , same thing you tell me ..

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I don't remember which book or interview right now, but I was under the impression that Waltz described two different veins in his pit mine;

1. Was the famous 18" gold-in-quartz

2. Was a soft gray tuffitic type rock with fine flour like gold.

Any evidence of any such ore at the "Pit Mine"? I didn't see anything like it in the pictures you posted of the interior of that mine.

I also remember that the Jewelry Ore tested minimally for Silver Content. That would be more indicative of a gold mine rather than a silver mine with a gold intrusion. The picture of the "Pit Ore" looks to contain a very large proportion of silver.

I do agree with you that the miners were unlikely to have gone to all that trouble and risk for silver (unless it was like that at the Planchas de Plata in sheets of almost pure silver).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I am less sure than Thomas that the jewelry ore came from the LDM, and I'm not all that sure he is totally convinced. He tested what he could get that was said to have come from the LDM.

I know that the rock in the dump is silver sulfides. Does that mean that a chimney of almost pure gold quartz could not have come up in the middle of the sulfides?

From what I have read, the LDM is not all that normal. It was an unusual find, in an unusual place. Place might be defined as in the middle of a silver sulfide matrix.

As I have said....many times, I don't know $#!t about rocks. Someone else will have to come up with the qualified guesses.

I know something else that points to gold, like the LDM, coming from the pit mine. The picture is one thing, but there is something else that adds weight to that possibility.

One last thing. I have been as open and honest in this story as possible. I have presented as much of the story as I possibly can, without naming names.
Many will know exactly what those names are, but I will continue to skirt around that part of the facts.

I believe I have made it clear where I am guessing, where I am quoting and where I am believing my sources. All that I have said is factual, is.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

yayayaya we herd it all before .. same as that crazy bowman joe your story is a camp fire story wheres the proff ....lol



and sorry it is not that uncommon to see gold and silver ore side by side .. what real makes the mine rare is the purity and quality and ratio of gold to matrix...IMHO

that plus the fact the tayopa tunnle is some 200 ft or 200 yards away .. would put to very larger deposits side by side ..no matter how they are layed out that in it self would be rare ..

i have been researching this same topic over and over again and even knowing where the mine is .. i dont have clue why these deposits are like this .. i come up with a few theorys nothing solid yet ..

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Any particular reason for being so uncertain?

Mike