LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

[oldpueblo]

Hello Everyone. I am new to this forum, but have been following posts and threads for some time. After reading many posts on a few forums, I have three questions that hopefully someone on here can answer. If they've been answered somewhere else just let me know and I'll do the research. I don't mean to start a firestorm, or upset anyone with this topic. I have not written direct quotes so I will be loosely paraphrasing things that I have read.

1. If Calalus and Oz are real, and they want these sites protected, why give out so many clues to their location? Why would "gatekeepers" write thinly veiled threats like "if the location is found heads will roll", "if you went looking uninvited for the location it would be unhealthy", "if the big secret got out it would cost lives". This all seems very contradictory.

2. I believe it was Klondike who said, "someone would need two sponsors to be able to see Calalus". How would one find two sponsors if all of the "gatekeepers" keep their identities secret?

3. Concerning the LDM, some have alluded that this story was made up along with two of the stone maps to lead people away from certain parts of the Sups. If this is true, all they have done is attract thousands of people to an area they are trying to protect and conceal. This is evident by the thousands of people that have searched for the LDM over the past 120+ years. Why do this?

I believe that the LDM is real, and it aligns a lot with Oro Blancos theory. I also believe many things have not yet been discovered. If Calalus does exist, I believe that I know where the general location is based on the clues given. Adams calendar, certain constellation, and the thee times of the year the stars will guide you. Right now it is only a theory, as I have not gone looking. Do I believe that it is a possibility that they both exist? Yes. I also believe there is a lost, or overlooked history of exploration of the US. It's not the "stuff" that has been spoon fed to us via the schools. I am just trying to understand the gatekeepers motives, and how the LDM ties in with it. If any gatekeepers would like to PM me, that would be fine. If anyone else would like to weigh in on this subject, or correct me on anything, feel free to do so.

Thanks, oldpueblo

 

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[Oroblanco]

No argument from me, you have pointed up some of the issues very well concerning Calalus and Oz. I would only add that there are very definite evidences of an ancient civilization in the Superstition mountains, which extend out onto the valley. These mystery people built ball courts, not far different from the ancient Mayan ball game, dug irrigation canals extending for miles, and appear to have been a successful people whom lived in the area for centuries, vanishing before the arrival of European explorers.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

How does one become a gatekeeper? If I was to choose a place to settle And start a colony Az would be last on the list. As far as the stone maps go they are post 1890 and do reference a area with gold and silver deposits.

 

[Oroblanco]

I forgot to say WELCOME TO TREASURENET Oldpueblo!

Please do continue amigos.

 

[oldpueblo]

Thanks for the warm welcome, and Oro Blanco, it's a pleasure to be here. There's definitely evidence of ancient cultures all around the Tucson area also. The Tucson Citizen ran a story 2-3 years ago about the ball courts. They stretch from the Benson/Sierra Vista area all the way up through the Mammoth/Globe area. Many are on private land and have not been excavated. The paper basically said that they're not sure if the influence was from direct trade, or a natural migration north. There is also evidence all along both sides of the Santa Cruz river regarding canals and irrigation. I just wonder if there wasn't a much earlier European/Mid Eastern influence in the area.

Sgtfda, apparently to become a gatekeeper one would have to be a descendant of Calalus and Oz. I agree, this would not be my first choice either. Not to get off topic I assume that you are talking about the two trail maps, not the horse and priest maps. I don't want you to give too much away, but why do you think they were made after 1890?

It was either Starman 1 or Klondike I think that said Jacob Waltz(Walzer) was a descendant from Calalus. If that is true how does the gold mine fit into the narrative?

 

[sgtfda]

The stone map date is on the stones along with the spot the date refers to. No not 1847. It's a very easy map to read. I guess most stoners can't read a map. The horse map also tells you the exact trail location. I figured it out in reverse. Found the gold first. The Peralta Tesora map helped. I doubt Waltz was a gatekeeper or those that say they are. A true gatekeeper would not be posting on the net.
Remember not all the found stone maps were made public. Guess it's like having a treasure map with the corner ripped off that tells you what your looking for.

 

[Not Peralta]

The stone map date is on the stones along with the spot the date refers to. No not 1847. It's a very easy map to read. I guess most stoners can't read a map. The horse map also tells you the exact trail location. I figured it out in reverse. Found the gold first. The Peralta Tesora map helped. I doubt Waltz was a gatekeeper or those that say they are. A true gatekeeper would not be posting on the net.
Remember not all the found stone maps were made public. Guess it's like having a treasure map with the corner ripped off that tells you what your looking for.

sgtfda&oldpueblo, true gatekeepers will not ever come on tn and give any information, but you have people pretending to be gatekeepers that work for different groups trying to get information on
certain subjects, they are dream robbers, plain and simple ,and this has been going on for a long time. they come in all sizes and shapes.
and yes, not all the stone maps were made public, I give good directions on where to recover two tablets, but that means someone would have to get off their butt and go look. for some on here that's too much work.even if they can drive to the location. np

 

[cactusjumper]

I wrote this back in Jan. of 2007:
__________________________

[For those who may not know, a "gatekeeper" may not necessarily be someone who actually guards or watches a gate, physical portal or in our case, perhaps, a mine entrance.

A gatekeeper could be someone who guards a specific person or group from "undesirables". A secretary who shields her boss from those he does not wish to see, would be considered a gatekeeper.

These days, outside of the occult, the title is often found in academic circles. In this case, it would refer to those who control the curriculum. That would be the professors/teachers.

In other words, they would be opening and closing the door/gate on the information that the students are exposed to.

As Mr. Davis is an "affiliate" of a university, and is not a secretary, it seems safe to assume that he is a gatekeeper of information/knowledge.

Three questions arise from this deduction:

What information is he opening or closing the gate on and are we the "students" he is giving or withholding knowledge from.

The last question seems simple enough: If his intention is to withhold, or close the gate, why is he here at all?

Could it be that he is actually looking for information?]

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Not Peralta]

cactusjumper, seems like MR.DAVIS is on your mind a lot. np

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper, seems like MR.DAVIS is on your mind a lot. np

Not Peralta,

Actually, no more than the Jesuit Mission on the Burns Ranch. Where are you at on that story?

Have you seen the Tucson Artifacts or the Bent Manuscript? I was curious enough to research the story and the main players in the creation of the fable. While I may have my doubts about any story, like yours, I will do my best to prove those doubts wrong......or right.

Most people would not get into the basement to see the artifacts that are not on display upstairs......we did:



Others would be satisfied with soaking up the story, as is.

Ben Davis is never on my mind, unless he shows up posting somewhere. Ben is never dull. I had a fairly long phone conversation with the man.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

.... A true gatekeeper would not be posting on the net. ....

Unless for nefarious or obfuscation type purposes?

 

[Not Peralta]

cactusjumper, actually I feel really at piece with my story, but at least I have one. yes I have seen the pictures of all the artifacts connected to the Tucson artifacts,as a matter of fact I have more than
three hundred different pictures of them. every one has an opinion on them if you don't want to believe that they are real then that's your opinion, but don't try to push you beliefs off on the rest of us,
you know kinda like your map. I also know you don't believe in calalus or oz being associated with the superstitions because its something you do not understand, but that's your opinion, my opinion is you are trying to start another good argument so this thread will get locked down, well good luck with that,some day maybe the right people will figure out what your up to. that's my answer and to keep from getting this thread locked down I am through talking to you. have a day. np

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks for the warm welcome, and Oro Blanco, it's a pleasure to be here. There's definitely evidence of ancient cultures all around the Tucson area also. The Tucson Citizen ran a story 2-3 years ago about the ball courts. They stretch from the Benson/Sierra Vista area all the way up through the Mammoth/Globe area. Many are on private land and have not been excavated. The paper basically said that they're not sure if the influence was from direct trade, or a natural migration north. There is also evidence all along both sides of the Santa Cruz river regarding canals and irrigation. I just wonder if there wasn't a much earlier European/Mid Eastern influence in the area.

Sgtfda, apparently to become a gatekeeper one would have to be a descendant of Calalus and Oz. I agree, this would not be my first choice either. Not to get off topic I assume that you are talking about the two trail maps, not the horse and priest maps. I don't want you to give too much away, but why do you think they were made after 1890?

It was either Starman 1 or Klondike I think that said Jacob Waltz(Walzer) was a descendant from Calalus. If that is true how does the gold mine fit into the narrative?

Hola amigos - and you guessed that I was referring to the rather mysterious Hohokam people. (For our readers not posting, here is a brief online article explaining pretty well)

Arizona

The earliest canals built by these people are believed to date to 1100 BC - so they were present, and farming, for a VERY long time. It is thought that they had and used a fairly accurate calendar (necessary for farming) and those ball courts are a particular problem to try to explain. As you know some historians will theorize about a migration of people south, but few propose a migration to the north - yet here we have those ball courts, similar to the ancient Mayans, and even a few of the rubber balls used for the game have been found. These rubber balls had to come from at the closest, southern Mexico, quite a distance from the Salt river valley. How did they get them?

Pierpont C. Bicknell wrote an article in 1894, in which he claimed to have found an ancient Hohokam copper mine on the top of Superstition mountain. Was he simply making up a story? Only a few copper artifacts have been found in Hohokam sites, which does not prove anything other than they did have copper items as part of their culture. A stone solar calender was found in Heiroglyphic canyon (if memory serves) which was later removed, someone had posted where it is located today but clearly some 'civilized' people were entering the Superstitions, centuries ago, before the Europeans arrived.

Jacob Waltz signed his name Waltz, not Walzer or Waltzer, so I have to accept that was the correct spelling. I don't know of any connection between Waltz and the ancient people of the area, but it is possible there could be a connection - perhaps his mine had been an ancient Hohokam mine? I doubt it but maybe, won't know for sure until someone finds the mine.

As to the Calalus and/or Oz relics, you probably have read my doubts on another forum so no need to cover it again. While I have NO doubt that people(s) were visiting the Americas from the Old World, up to 1200 years before Christ, I can not place any faith in the Calalus artifacts or the story of Oz. If you wish to see a piece of evidence that is far less questionable, and points to ancient visitors to the southwest from across the ocean, I would suggest the so-called Los Lunas "decalogue" or 'dekalogue' ; thought to be an ancient Hebrew version of the Ten Commandments, carved on stone, in a semi-remote spot in New Mexico. Not far from the stone are what appears to be an ancient fortification. Evidences of ancient prospectors or miners, have been found in such diverse locations as Michigan's upper peninsula and deep in the Black Hills, clearly not the work of primitive hunter-gatherer Indian tribes, or for more 'solid' type ruins, we have Mystery Hill in New Hampshire. At Mystery Hill people have been re-arranging the ruins until we can not know exactly what it looked like previously, but carved inscriptions in Phoenician and what appears to be ancient Ogam have been found, giving a clue as to whom had originally occupied the site. Other even stronger pieces of evidence, proving ancient visitors DID come to America by sea across the oceans have been found too, but that is another story.

Not too far from where I now live, in a spot known as "Spanish Diggings" there are ruins covering the top of a plateau for a considerable area, with evidences of farming tools, pottery, specialized shops etc and dating to BC; who or whom was farming in SE Wyoming in the BC era? No one knows. I am getting carried away here and do not wish to draw you (or anyone) into an argument so will close here. Please do continue amigos, I look forward to reading your posts.
Oroblanco

 

[Somero]

Funny thing about Caliche, it gets soft when water is added then dry's like a rock again. I would imagine if you buried lead in the ground and added water it would become encrusted and seem like it had been there for centuries. I suppose if you had car battery lead and were bored.........................................

Did they ever find any horse remains with all that lead, pretty heavy for a person to be luggin it through the desert. Why did the "gatekeepers" bury their artifacts for somebody to find instead of keeping them safely locked up?

Just My Opinion.

 

[John_Arizona]

Funny thing about Caliche, it gets soft when water is added then dry's like a rock again. I would imagine if you buried lead in the ground and added water it would become encrusted and seem like it had been there for centuries. I suppose if you had car battery lead and were bored.........................................

Did they ever find any horse remains with all that lead, pretty heavy for a person to be luggin it through the desert. Why did the "gatekeepers" bury their artifacts for somebody to find instead of keeping them safely locked up?

Just My Opinion.

your looking like a fossil now?

 

[Somero]

Hola amigos - and you guessed that I was referring to the rather mysterious Hohokam people. (For our readers not posting, here is a brief online article explaining pretty well)

Arizona

The earliest canals built by these people are believed to date to 1100 BC - so they were present, and farming, for a VERY long time. It is thought that they had and used a fairly accurate calendar (necessary for farming) and those ball courts are a particular problem to try to explain. As you know some historians will theorize about a migration of people south, but few propose a migration to the north - yet here we have those ball courts, similar to the ancient Mayans, and even a few of the rubber balls used for the game have been found. These rubber balls had to come from at the closest, southern Mexico, quite a distance from the Salt river valley. How did they get them?

Pierpont C. Bicknell wrote an article in 1894, in which he claimed to have found an ancient Hohokam copper mine on the top of Superstition mountain. Was he simply making up a story? Only a few copper artifacts have been found in Hohokam sites, which does not prove anything other than they did have copper items as part of their culture. A stone solar calender was found in Heiroglyphic canyon (if memory serves) which was later removed, someone had posted where it is located today but clearly some 'civilized' people were entering the Superstitions, centuries ago, before the Europeans arrived.

Jacob Waltz signed his name Waltz, not Walzer or Waltzer, so I have to accept that was the correct spelling. I don't know of any connection between Waltz and the ancient people of the area, but it is possible there could be a connection - perhaps his mine had been an ancient Hohokam mine? I doubt it but maybe, won't know for sure until someone finds the mine.

As to the Calalus and/or Oz relics, you probably have read my doubts on another forum so no need to cover it again. While I have NO doubt that people(s) were visiting the Americas from the Old World, up to 1200 years before Christ, I can not place any faith in the Calalus artifacts or the story of Oz. If you wish to see a piece of evidence that is far less questionable, and points to ancient visitors to the southwest from across the ocean, I would suggest the so-called Los Lunas "decalogue" or 'dekalogue' ; thought to be an ancient Hebrew version of the Ten Commandments, carved on stone, in a semi-remote spot in New Mexico. Not far from the stone are what appears to be an ancient fortification. Evidences of ancient prospectors or miners, have been found in such diverse locations as Michigan's upper peninsula and deep in the Black Hills, clearly not the work of primitive hunter-gatherer Indian tribes, or for more 'solid' type ruins, we have Mystery Hill in New Hampshire. At Mystery Hill people have been re-arranging the ruins until we can not know exactly what it looked like previously, but carved inscriptions in Phoenician and what appears to be ancient Ogam have been found, giving a clue as to whom had originally occupied the site. Other even stronger pieces of evidence, proving ancient visitors DID come to America by sea across the oceans have been found too, but that is another story.

Not too far from where I now live, in a spot known as "Spanish Diggings" there are ruins covering the top of a plateau for a considerable area, with evidences of farming tools, pottery, specialized shops etc and dating to BC; who or whom was farming in SE Wyoming in the BC era? No one knows. I am getting carried away here and do not wish to draw you (or anyone) into an argument so will close here. Please do continue amigos, I look forward to reading your posts.
Oroblanco

When these "Old World" influences pop up I often wonder if they are associated with a ship that got lost at sea or even shipwreck survivors, as opposed to a whole civilization moving across the ocean then across the country and vanishing.

 

[Somero]

your looking like a fossil now?

Get those day when I feel like one, usually a cup of coffee clears it up

 

[Oroblanco]

When these "Old World" influences pop up I often wonder if they are associated with a ship that got lost at sea or even shipwreck survivors, as opposed to a whole civilization moving across the ocean then across the country and vanishing.

Accidental crossings of the Atlantic, and Pacific are a proven fact; Pedro Cabral "discovered" Brazil when his ship was blown across the ocean by a powerful storm, and even Japanese junks have been blown to the west coast of the US (in the gold rush era) by severe storms. If you look into it, the first Norse to see America were also carried there by a storm (this story was told to Leif Eriksson, and he then gets credit for making the actual discovery, but he also purchased the ship that had made the accidental landfall to use for his own voyage, based on the 'luck' factor) and the Greek historians reported that Phoenician and Punic ships were likewise carried to what can only be America by powerful storms. The evidence of a purported Roman shipwreck off the coast at Beverly Mass, (Roman coins washing ashore fairly regularly at a particular spot) is very likely an accidental crossing. This kind of accidental visitor would not leave massive stone cities in ruins, but that is what some folks expect to see before they can accept that the Americas were not in complete isolation from the Old World prior to Columbus.

Sorry for drifting off topic there - please do continue amigos;
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Funny thing about Caliche, it gets soft when water is added then dry's like a rock again. I would imagine if you buried lead in the ground and added water it would become encrusted and seem like it had been there for centuries. I suppose if you had car battery lead and were bored.........................................

Did they ever find any horse remains with all that lead, pretty heavy for a person to be luggin it through the desert. Why did the "gatekeepers" bury their artifacts for somebody to find instead of keeping them safely locked up?

Just My Opinion.

Apparently it is some sort of rule that pre dates even way back then. If all these treasures weren't buried then treasure hunters would have nothing to dig up

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Hellooooooooooooooooooooo - DNA

Accidental crossings of the Atlantic, and Pacific are a proven fact; Pedro Cabral "discovered" Brazil when his ship was blown across the ocean by a powerful storm, and even Japanese junks have been blown to the west coast of the US (in the gold rush era) by severe storms. If you look into it, the first Norse to see America were also carried there by a storm (this story was told to Leif Eriksson, and he then gets credit for making the actual discovery, but he also purchased the ship that had made the accidental landfall to use for his own voyage, based on the 'luck' factor) and the Greek historians reported that Phoenician and Punic ships were likewise carried to what can only be America by powerful storms. The evidence of a purported Roman shipwreck off the coast at Beverly Mass, (Roman coins washing ashore fairly regularly at a particular spot) is very likely an accidental crossing. This kind of accidental visitor would not leave massive stone cities in ruins, but that is what some folks expect to see before they can accept that the Americas were not in complete isolation from the Old World prior to Columbus.

Sorry for drifting off topic there - please do continue amigos;
Oroblanco

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