Interesting New Information

[GreenBranch]

Several months ago, as I thought about all the clues Dutch Hunters have used to find the LDM, I realized that the only one that seems to be directly created by The Dutchman was the Doodle. I figured that if this is truly a view from above the cave adjacent to the mine as Helen Corbin believed, I should be able to find it on Google Earth. After many hours of flying around the Sups, I discovered a landform that I think matches it pretty well, so last week I planned a day trip.

After hiking through some of the most difficult terrain I have ever encountered, and after reaching the spot on Google Earth, this is what I found.

Intrigued, I climbed up the steep route to the right of the cave and once on top, turned around and saw this. A horses head with an ear laid back?

Excited, I hiked over to explore the area but it was getting dark and was forced to turn back and after hiking down by headlamp, I drove out at 2:00 a.m. Seems I never have enough time to devote to these excursions. But I am planning a longer stay in February and hope to have more information to share.

Now I know what you're thinking: Why doesn't he show the Google Earth view of the Doodle? I thought about it very seriously but realized that it might create a mad rush to find the spot by people not prepared to face the terrain and the approaching winter weather. I really don't want anyone to get hurt. So I decided to hold off until I've had a chance to explore the area further and perhaps find a better route.

Until next time, I hope many of you will comment and share your opinions. Politely of course.

GreenBranch

 

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[skyhawk1251]

"I figured that if this is truly a view from above the cave adjacent to the mine as Helen Corbin believed, I should be able to find it on Google Earth."

That was a great leap of faith; to expect to match a crudely drawn doodle to a view seen on Google Earth, when Google Earth can't even show the contour of Weaver's Needle accurately. Yet, despite the unreliability of Google Earth, you came up with a location and had the determination to test your hunch by putting boots on-the-ground. That's more than I would have done, so I have to salute you for your effort.

Of course, I'm sure you realize that the location you went to is only one of many other possibilities. The "horse's head" is an interesting find, but as for it also, many other horse's heads have been found.

Nevertheless, your post is another excellent one. I'm interested in seeing a photo taken from the same vantage point as the doodle.

 

[GreenBranch]

Here's a Google Earth image that shows the area adjacent to the horse head rock. Is it wishful thinking or does it look like three rocks in the shape of a pyramid and a square rock with an elongated corner? It was almost dark when I explored the area and I didn't find them. I also didn't find any evidence of mining. But then, I have to admit, I wouldn't know a mine if it bit me on the foot. This is the kind of thing I hope to look for next time and is why I'm posting these images so that hopefully people with more knowledge than I have can help direct my future explorations.

 

[skyhawk1251]

". . . does it look like three rocks in the shape of a pyramid and a square rock with an elongated corner . . ."

Just wishful thinking, in my opinion. Do you attach some significance to the three rocks and the square rock?

Thus far, I have you starting your hike from First Water Trailhead, crossing over to Garden Valley, then taking Black Mesa Trail toward Yellow Peak. To match the Waltz doodle, a person would need to be looking southeast toward Weaver's Needle. The view would be a mirror image of the doodle if a person was looking northwest toward Weaver's Needle, say from the junction of Dutchman's and Whiskey Springs trails, near Miners Summit. I'll post images demonstrating this later.

 

[GreenBranch]

I've accumulated a list of clues from various sources. Four of them are:

1. Near the mine, perhaps covering the entrance, is a square rock with one elongated corner.
2. Just to one side of the mine is a square rock waist-high.
3. Look for a triangle of Rocks.
4. Three stones by themselves are the key to the mine.

I don't think the peak in the doodle is Weavers Needle. I'll be posting about that later.

GreenBranch

 

[skyhawk1251]

The above photo is reported to have been taken near the junction of Dutchman's and Whiskey Springs trails, and it looks like the photographer was standing on some higher ground. The trail junction is near Miners Summit. I haven't been there, so I have to assume that the information given with the photo is correct.

From that vantage point, southeast of Weaver's Needle, the two main "lobes" of the needle are reversed from what is seen in the doodle drawn by Waltz. The highest lobe is to the right in the photo, but the highest lobe is to the left in the doodle. So, I have to surmise, if Waltz wasn't playing any tricks on Petrasch, that the view shown in the doodle can be seen somewhere northwest of Weaver's Needle.

My guesstimate of the route followed by Greenbranch takes into account the location of existing hiking trails and an easily accessible spot for vehicle parking. Those factors thus far lead me to think that he parked at First Water Trailhead, hiked to Garden Valley, then followed Black Mesa Trail toward Yellow Peak, where boulders of the kind he shows in his GE image can be found. Apparently, it is somewhere on the south slopes of Yellow Peak where he arrived at his "doodle viewpoint." Yellow Peak is very near the junction of Boulder and Needle canyons.

My deductions are based on a lot of assumptions. If anyone has any idea as to where Greenbranch's "doodle viewpoint" is located, please post here. Despite my being way off-target, I remain inclined to believe that the doodle shows Weaver's Needle.

Two Google Earth images of Yellow Peak are shown above.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I also didn't find any evidence of mining. But then, I have to admit, I wouldn't know a mine if it bit me on the foot. This is the kind of thing I hope to look for next time and is why I'm posting these images so that hopefully people with more knowledge than I have can help direct my future explorations.

Unfortunately very few posters on this forum know what a mine is.

Most are looking for holes in the ground to find a mine. The hole is the hardest part to find but you will know when a mine is present even when you can't find the entrance. The main feature of a mine that is always visible and much larger than the mine entrance is the waste pile from all the rock that was removed from the mine.

Every mine has a waste pile. No waste pile? It's not a mine. Simple, straight forward and always true. You can't hide a mining waste pile. They are obvious and visible even on Google Earth.

 

[Idahodutch]

I've accumulated a list of clues from various sources. Four of them are:

1. Near the mine, perhaps covering the entrance, is a square rock with one elongated corner.
2. Just to one side of the mine is a square rock waist-high.
3. Look for a triangle of Rocks.
4. Three stones by themselves are the key to the mine.

I don't think the peak in the doodle is Weavers Needle. I'll be posting about that later.

GreenBranch

Green Branch,
I want to make sure I’m understanding what you’re saying.
I’m hearing that you believe the doodle was drawn by Waltz, but that it’s not Weavers Needle.
The other thing I’m hearing, is that you have put together a list of clues, from various sources, that you believe are not from Waltz, but are for his mine … is that correct?

Thx,
Idahodutch

 

[skyhawk1251]

See this drone video of Weaver's Needle from the air. Notice how the lower "lobe", called by some a "chimney", becomes even less prominent as the drone swings around to a different direction.



The Waltz doodle does not show the thin pinnacle that is adjacent to the higher "lobe." Was this how he saw the needle from above the cave, or was it omitted by mistake? The doodle raises many questions and provides no answers.

 

[GreenBranch]

Thanks to everyone for posting. I'd hoped that my post would generate some dialog.

Before I get into more details about my find, I want to clarify my motives. I'm not trying to find the LDM to get rich, I'm interested in finding the truth. If that truth leads to finding gold, then it belongs to the American people and should be used for a good public purpose. My fear is that if the LDM is found and the location revealed, the Government will immediately seize it and the treasure it contains would go to less than noble purposes. For this reason, I'm trying to be careful to keep the information I provide vague. Plus, as I stated earlier, I don't want a bunch of ill-prepared people falling all over themselves storming the mountains and digging holes. And of course, I'm not convinced I've found the mine, I've only found some intriguing information so there's no need to get people's hopes up. Still, I think I'm on to something and want the experts to help me sift through the legendary clues to help me determine if this is a legitimate site or just another wild goose chase. Then in February, I'll make another, hopefully more informed trip to see what I can find.

Now on to the fun stuff.

I want to compare the Waltz Doodle to a GreenBranch Doodle.
Here' s supposed photograph of the original doodle.

Here's a sketch of the view I saw from a location just above the cave and across a ravine from the horses head shown in my original post above.

Proof I've found the LDM? Not in the least. Intriguing evidence? I think so.

What I hope we can all do is put our best thinking caps on and sift through the "clues" to see if we can come up with a plan for what to look for on my next outing.

So for now: I seem to recall that one of the clues was that the LDM was just under a cliff that had a formation that looked like a horses head with one ear laid back.

There is a patch of relatively rock and brush free ground just under the horse head cliff. A potential candidate for the LDM?

Let the discussion begin.

 

[skyhawk1251]

I think you can safely post a photo of what is seen above the cave and was used to create your doodle. Also, I'd like to know if this site complies with the clue, "four peaks can be seen as one" above the suspected mine site.

Also, concerning the patch of bare ground, did you see any evidence of ground subsidence/sinking?

 

[GreenBranch]

I'll try to respond to each post in order.

Clay Diggins:

"But then, I have to admit, I wouldn't know a mine if it bit me on the foot."

I said this mostly in jest. I live near many silver mines and have hiked around them and know the irreparable impact they have on the landscape (despite my inability to distinguish silver from mica schist. I'd always assumed that the small pieces I've found over the years was actually silver!).

My undergraduate thesis looked at coal mine reclamation so am aware that if there was a mine in the area of study, it should be easily visible. But Waltz spend a lot of time and effort skillfully hiding his mine and by 2nd and 3rd hand reports, his mine was very small, about the diameter of a barrel and about 12 feet deep. Not so much waste that an ambitious person wanting to hide it couldn't disperse it without too much difficulty. But the pit mine is a different story.

If the legend is correct that it was 75' wide and 75' deep then it would be extremely difficult to hide, even by a tribe of Indians spending a winter trying to do so. I saw nothing like that in the area of study. So either this isn't the right place or the legend is false. Some of the reports speak of Waltz sneaking up on the mine, some Mexican's poking their heads up over the top then scrambling up the other side and into the trees. As I try to visualize this, it sounds more like a smallish pit mine to me.

So for this study, I am assuming that neither mine was very large and that a good amount of effort was made by someone to hide them. Is this the right assumption to make? We'll see. And of course, I welcome your comments.

 

[GreenBranch]

IdahoDutch

"I want to make sure I’m understanding what you’re saying.
I’m hearing that you believe the doodle was drawn by Waltz, but that it’s not Weavers Needle.
The other thing I’m hearing, is that you have put together a list of clues, from various sources, that you believe are not from Waltz, but are for his mine … is that correct?"

I know that there is a piece of paper with a doodle on it reportedly made by Waltz and that according to several reliable reports sat on Rheinhart Petrasch's fireplace mantle, a photo of which I posted earlier. IMHO, this is the most reliable piece of evidence in the whole LDM story. But it is also the piece of evidence that I believe has led a hundred and fifty years of Dutch Hunters to the wrong place. If Weavers Needle is depicted in the doodle then why hasn't anyone found the LDM? Is it possible that a non-English speaker who only visited the Superstition Mountains a few times misnamed the geological feature he drew? Or that those people who were more familiar with the Sups assumed his drawing was Weavers Needle because of the uncanny resemblance? I'm approaching this study with the latter scenario. I may be wrong, but that's what investigation is all about - eliminating what's false so that whatever is left is more likely to be true. I found a physical location and a rock formation that fits the doodle and I'm going to test this hypothesis and hopefully with your help, will make less false assumptions.

Regarding the clues:

I don't think any of the clues are true. I also don't think any are necessarily false. I simply think they need to be studied in context with the current location. When I found a spot on Google Earth that seemed to fit the Waltz Doodle, and then later discovered an actual physical location that matched that doodle AND a cave directly below that spot AND a rock formation in the shape of a horse's head across a rocky potholed ravine chocked with shrubs, I figured it was worth posting to get other people's opinions about its alignment with the clues. I hope everyone who posts will put past assumptions aside about what is a legitimate clue and what isn't and look at all of them with an open mind.

 

[GreenBranch]

Skyhawk,

Here's a picture of Brown's Peak as seen about 40 or so feet above the mine. Seems to fail the "one peak" clue. So should I abandon this site? Not if the clue is false. Besides, if that clue was so important, why wasn't it in the doodle?

"did you see any evidence of ground subsidence/sinking"

I didn't notice any subsidence but then again I wasn't looking for it and unfortunately by the time I climbed up to the ridge and saddle looking for evidence of a pit mine, it was dark when I got back to the horse head rock. On a side note, the saddle had a large patch of thick grass, enough to graze several burros.

 

[Idahodutch]

GreenBranch,
I think you’re taking a different approach than others. The doodle is interesting, but for me, what makes it interesting, is that it’s supposed to represent a certain view of something specific, (or so is how I understood it).
The list of clues, that come from various sources, don’t really have any reasons provided as to why the clues selected , were selected over some others.
It sounds like you found a spot on google earth, (and then looked for any clue matches).
It does not sound like you followed any clues.

I jus think the approach has less chance of success, than other search approaches, but that’s my opinion.

In your search for the spot the doodle was drawn at, you don’t give us enough information to see if you’re on track.

To ask what we think, then the answers will be vague at best.
My response, is that I think you’re probably looking in the correct mountains, if you’re looking in the superstitions. 🤓👍

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Skyhawk,

Here's a picture of Brown's Peak as seen about 40 or so feet above the mine. Seems to fail the "one peak" clue. So should I abandon this site? Not if the clue is false. Besides, if that clue was so important, why wasn't it in the doodle?

View attachment 2115786

"did you see any evidence of ground subsidence/sinking"

I didn't notice any subsidence but then again I wasn't looking for it and unfortunately by the time I climbed up to the ridge and saddle looking for evidence of a pit mine, it was dark when I got back to the horse head rock. On a side note, the saddle had a large patch of thick grass, enough to graze several burros.

GreenBranch,
The 4 peaks clue, is part of a list of directions to Waltz’ mine.
It has a starting point, and once reaching the saddle, you are to go through it, up to the ridge it ties into, go up to the highest point of that ridge, look north, and 4-peaks looks like one peak.

Either the directions are good, or not.
If none could be found, no starting point makes it hard. If no starting point is found, but subsequent clues are found, then maybe the trail was correctly intercepted. The 4-peaks clue can make or break the site reached, depending if it fits.
Once the 4-peaks clue is matched up, then the final directions to the mine might just work.

There is another set of directions, coming from a different starting point, but finishing up in same place as the other directions.

The remaining clues, are not too much directional, but can still help identify the region of the mine ….. clues like ;
- water tanks below the mine.
- high up in an arroyo.
- setting sun shines on the gold.
- no miner will find my mine.

Stuff like that.
Good luck , and field checking your ideas, increases the chances of success 🤓👍
Idahodutch

 

[skyhawk1251]

Here's a picture of Brown's Peak as seen about 40 or so feet above the mine. Seems to fail the "one peak" clue. So should I abandon this site?

No, please don't abandon your site. Pursue your personal quest as far as you want it to go. It's my belief, however, that if the LDM is ever found it will be found mostly by chance and not by using the clues as a guide. After the mine is found, then all of the clues can be analyzed to determine which of them are valid and which of them are bogus.

I'll wait patiently until you're able to visit the site again. I'm satisfied that I've done my job by helping to contribute to your thread. You've probably noticed that your views are growing by leaps-and-bounds.

BTW, I want to add that it's very difficult to hide a mineralized vein. So, if you see no signs of mineralization at your site, you've arrived at the wrong spot. Prospectors don't dig holes at random. They always see something that catches their interest.

 

[GreenBranch]

A few more little tidbits:

The cave I found had a nice level dirt floor that looked well used but right in the middle of the cave a massive chunk of rock had dropped from the ceiling. There wasn't much dirt on the rock so it must have been fairly recent, say in the last one hundred and fifty years or so, or about the time of the big 1887 Sonora earthquake. Was the cave inhabited before the earthquake? The number of pottery sherds scattered below the cave would indicate that it was. Also, the fact that so many artifacts were still there leads me to believe few if any people have visited the cave, or if they did, they were uncommonly trustworthy not to take them.

I bring up the earthquake because the minor spire shown on my doodle doesn't have the skinny chimney-like top shown in Waltz's doodle. On closer inspection, however, the chimney used to be there but had been toppled over and lay in pieces below leaving the top of the spire on the right in sharp broken pieces.

One more thing and then I'll end. I found these two rocks below the cave and am very curious to know what they are. I shared these photos with several university geology professors who couldn't identify them. Any geologists in the audience want to give it a shot?

 

[GreenBranch]

Skyhawk

BTW, I want to add that it's very difficult to hide a mineralized vein. So, if you see no signs of mineralization at your site, you've arrived at the wrong spot. Prospectors don't dig holes at random. They always see something that catches their interest.

I was definitely looking for signs of mineralization or bull quartz or anything that might indicate a mine but there was absolutely noting. This doesn't bode well, except that I recall someone reported Waltz saying the mine was in an area where there was no mineralization and another that Waltz meticulously dug out the vein and covered it up, all 400 feet of it. I'm not sure I buy that line.

This fact alone (no mineralization) has made me reconsider this whole LDM legend as perhaps a very elaborate ruse Waltz created to cover the fact that he was high grading ore.

 

[GreenBranch]

IdahoDutch

In your search for the spot the doodle was drawn at, you don’t give us enough information to see if you’re on track.
To ask what we think, then the answers will be vague at best.

Point well taken. I know at some point in the near future I'll share the location. But for now I feel that this is the right approach.

Thanks to everyone who have contributed to this thread. Your knowledge is invaluable.

GreenBranch