WWII Battleship Graf Spee

Bigcypresshunter

Gold Member
Dec 15, 2004
27,000
3,339
South Florida
Detector(s) used
70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
Primary Interest:
Beach & Shallow Water Hunting
Salvaged Nazi artifacts' fate sparks dispute


Government fears far-right will buy them

By Larry Rohter
The New York Times
Posted August 26 2006


MONTEVIDEO · For more than 60 years, the scuttled wreck of the Graf Spee rested undisturbed in 65 feet of murky water just outside Montevideo's harbor. But now that fragments of the vessel, once the pride of the Nazi fleet, are being recovered, a new battle has broken out over who owns those spoils and what should be done with them.

The private syndicate that recovered them wants to put the pieces up for auction, with the money to be divided evenly with the government, as law requires. But Uruguayan officials, fearing that an auction might let neo-Nazi groups acquire the artifacts, are threatening to suspend the syndicate's permit and take control of the salvaging operation themselves.

"There are ethical limits on the promotion of Nazi symbols in museums, so who are the potential buyers of these icons if not neo-Nazis?" said Miguel Esmoris, director of the government's National Heritage Commission. "We're not against salvagers making a profit, but this is formally an archaeological site, and we cannot allow illicit trafficking in cultural and historical items."

The first items recovered, a cannon and a rangefinder, in 2004, caused little debate, except when the rangefinder was used in a fashion show. But the recovery of the vessel's imposing 9-foot-high tailpiece, an eagle atop a swastika, in February of this year and the announcement of plans to sell it ignited the current dispute.

Alfredo Etchegaray, who leads the syndicate salvaging the Graf Spee, said so far his group has sunk $100,000 into the effort, excluding donated equipment and services.

His lawyer, Daniel Ferrere, said most of the investors were Uruguayans but "risk capital put up by Europeans and foreigners resident in Uruguay" was also involved.

Commissioned in 1936, the Graf Spee was the most lethal of a class of pocket battleships developed by Nazi Germany. When World War II broke out, the vessel preyed on Allied shipping in the south Atlantic until British ships tracked it down at the mouth of the Rio de la Plata in December 1939.

Etchegaray cited recent reports in British tabloids that collectors in Asia and the United States were willing to pay $15 million or more if he succeeded in putting pieces of the Graf Spee up for auction.

"I've received e-mails from colleagues in Europe saying that neo-Nazi groups there are very interested in acquiring the eagle," said Roberto Bracco, a marine archaeologist here who is critical of the Graf Spee syndicate. "This shows that the past, especially the recent past, must be managed carefully and that Germany, Britain and the Jewish community all need to be involved in the disposition of these pieces."

Etchegaray said all potential bidders for the eagle would be carefully screened and that out of respect for the Jewish population, the insignia, at the moment in storage at a warehouse in Montevideo, had been covered up so that the swastika was not visible. Leaders of the Jewish population here, just under 1 percent of the country's 3.3 million inhabitants, have applauded those steps but say they still have concerns.

"We do not object to the recovery effort itself," said Ernesto Kreimerman, president of the Uruguayan Jewish Committee. "This vessel is an historical artifact that offers testimony to one of the darkest periods of modern times. But when it comes time to commercialize the insignia, we believe that it must go to a museum, not into private hands, and that photographs be controlled."
 

bigcypresshunter said:
But when it comes time to commercialize the insignia, we believe that it must go to a museum, not into private hands, and that photographs be controlled."

Sigh :-\
 

Shouldn't this be treated as a grave? Let those brave German sailors rest in peace.
 

It is not a rant, just stated fact naval vessel are grave sites.
 

Of course you're technically right, Free, but the post I gave you is a rant.
 

Still the discovery of this ship is good news. Too bad they scuttled the ship and did not come out and fight.
 

If they scuttled it there shouldn't be any "graves" right? I think the private company who recovers the artifacts should be free to sell them to who ever is willing to pay the highest money, it's not like if some neo nazi freak gets a hold of it the nazi's are going to rize to power again. In fact, to those who would be offened by it - it would probably be seen less if in private hands that if it were in the hands of a museum. My ancestors were attacked/killed by the british in the late 1600's because of their religeous beliefs but I don't find british artifacts from that time period to be "offensive". Maybe I'm just being shallow here, after all WW2 is a lot more recent but I just don't get it... ???
 

Cannonman17 said:
If they scuttled it there shouldn't be any "graves" right? I think the private company who recovers the artifacts should be free to sell them to who ever is willing to pay the highest money, it's not like if some neo nazi freak gets a hold of it the nazi's are going to rize to power again. In fact, to those who would be offened by it - it would probably be seen less if in private hands that if it were in the hands of a museum. My ancestors were attacked/killed by the british in the late 1600's because of their religeous beliefs but I don't find british artifacts from that time period to be "offensive". Maybe I'm just being shallow here, after all WW2 is a lot more recent but I just don't get it... ???
There are dead on it, they fought 3 british ships prior to entering the harbor.
 

Hi Gang,

The Graf Spee was a part of history.
The Nazi's were apart of history.
Same as the the German's use of the swastika.
History can be good or bad !
I know there were atrocities committed under the Nazi symbol.
There have also been thousands of atrocities commited under the US flag but we dont put OUR flag in a closet !

I certainly believe the Jewish people should read their own scriptures.
"If thine eye offend THEE, pluck it out."
In other words if you are offended by something ,then you are the one with the problem.

Just my 2 drachma's,

Mike in SC
 

Free2Dtect! said:
Still the discovery of this ship is good news. Too bad they scuttled the ship and did not come out and fight.
Free2Dtect! said:
...they fought 3 british ships prior to entering the harbor.
your own words
 

Cannonman17 said:
My ancestors were attacked/killed by the british in the late 1600's because of their religeous beliefs but I don't find british artifacts from that time period to be "offensive". Maybe I'm just being shallow here, after all WW2 is a lot more recent but I just don't get it... ???
It appears as if the war is not over for them. (Jewish) Maybe the next generation will forget and move on. :-\
 

I originally posted this topic as a recently discovered, historic shipwreck, in salvage. It may have to be moved to Rants, Religion, or Politics. :D :D :D
 

bigcypresshunter said:
Free2Dtect! said:
Still the discovery of this ship is good news. Too bad they scuttled the ship and did not come out and fight.
Free2Dtect! said:
...they fought 3 british ships prior to entering the harbor.
your own words
Read the history books, i'm correct on what i posted.
 

I believe ya, Free. 8) I just thought you contradicted yourself by saying too bad they didnt fight, yet they DID fight 3 British ships prior to scuttling.
 

How about if we NUKE Bagdad and then turn the sheet of glass into a Grave Site. Hell we could do the same thing to Iran and North Korea.
Peg Leg
 

If you google the ships name you will see that the ship was allowed to stay in port for
a couple of days to make repairs and bury their dead.The ship sailed with a skeleton
crew who where picked up by a german merchant vessel waiting at the scuttling site.
Any dead from the action with the british cruiser squadron were buried before the ship sailed,
the german funerals were attended by british naval officers,notice Captain Langsdorf laid out
the old first world war naval ensign and not the Nazi one when committing Suicide three days
later,also gave the old naval salute and not the Nazi one at the funerals.Not sure if this makes
the spee a war grave or not.??? :)
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top