Mackaydon said:
The Bourbon shield pattern is similar to that of Philip V during the period 1714/1715. One difference, that I can't distinquish is the number of small fleurs-de-lis to the right of the central pattern of the three f-d-l. If three are to the right, then it's 1714; if two, then its 1715.
Trez said:
The dot in the center...leads me to believe 1714. That dot appears on Gold Escudos dated 1714. I never seen it on any other year, but that doesn't mean anything
cuzcosquirrel said:
I agree with this. That dot pellet in the Bourbon shield is also found on gold 1714 cobs. The coin has enough detail to be desirable and is above average when compared.
First... We're assuming this is a 1715 Fleet piece... This same general design (referring to the Austria bar with space all around it, the stretch of the Naples/Sicily crest, and the standing block-footed lions) was used from 1714 through about 1724. Of course, most of the extant pieces of this design were salvaged from the Fleet, so that's "probably" where this came from... but others do exist.
If it IS 1715 Fleet material, it does have to be 1714 or 1715.... it has the shield style of 1714 and following (plus the lion style of 1714 and following). This is as specific as Ponterio, for example, gets when auctioning undated Fleet cob 8R ("shield of 1702-14" vs. "shield of 1714 and up" - mainly using the Austria bar as a point of reference, I assume). I don't know the specifics (if any) of what could differentiate the shields of 1714 from 1715 on the SILVER pieces. Hard to figure it out simply by comparing photos, even of multiple coins, since a piece that shows a date is often missing most of the right half of the shield). I have never seen a specific write-up or diagram of this info (granted, I don't have a lot of the really detailed books). Does anyone know of one? Maybe that "Shipwrecks and Their Coins: Volume 3 - 1715 Spanish Treasure Fleet" booklet, or the book by Alan Craig on the 1715 Fleet pieces owned by Florida?? The Calico book?
I have the Schulman Nov. 1972 catalog (major 1715 Fleet auction) which diagrams the breakdown of the shields on the GOLD... However, this does not carry over perfectly to the silver. For example, they don't show any of the 1714 shields on the gold escudos being of the "1713 style"... but some 1714 silver 8 Reales do indeed bear this older shield style. Don pointed out using the Burgundy crest as a diagnostic -- (3) small f-d-l in 1714 but only (2) in 1715. The Schulman catalog's diagrams for the gold generally indicate this, EXCEPT they also include a diagram of a transitional late 1714 style with only (2) f-d-l. Maybe that setup doesn't exist on the silver?
Also, regarding that dot in the middle of the central fleur-de-lis escutcheon... In a short search, I find at least (2) 1715-dated 8R with the dot (incl. the example in Sedwick's upcoming auction), so that can't be used as a diagnostic. As an aside, from looking at a few pieces and from what the auction catalog shows, the dot you are referring to on the gold pieces also seems to be in a higher position - above/between the two upper fleur-de-lis, as opposed centered between all three as on this silver piece. See this undated 1714 4 Escudos from a Ponterio auction:
Long story short... It's an undated 1714-24 Mexican 8R, likely 1715 Fleet (which would make it 1714 or 1715), appears genuine, with decent detail and strike plus good centering, front and back well matched... somewhat 'ticky' surfaces, but no corrosion. $140 is about right, not outrageous, not a bargain.
![:-\](https://www.treasurenet.com/smilies/undecided.gif "Undecided :-\")
I've had a couple of copper cobs but no silver.
