Who were they?

[Old Silver]

Who were these men who were supposed to go through the country of Santa Fe, from St. Louis, in 1816, but didn't go? Whoever they were, might they have gone the following year (1817)?

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...erican captives held at Santa Fé 1817&f=false

These are only 3 thumbnails. Read the whole passage.

 

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[franklin]

The men listed were not released until Mexico got it's Independence in 1822. Two of those men traveled East to St. Louis with the Jacob Fowler Expedition. Another traveled on his own and published an article about Indians in 1822 St. Louis Newspaper.

 

[Old Silver]

The men listed were not released until Mexico got it's Independence in 1822. Two of those men traveled East to St. Louis with the Jacob Fowler Expedition. Another traveled on his own and published an article about Indians in 1822 St. Louis Newspaper.

Who do you think the "some gentlemen" were that didn't go the Santa Fe in 1816?

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Who do you think the "some gentlemen" were that didn't go the Santa Fe in 1816?

Interesting If it was Captain Beale's associates they would have had a pass from the Governor of that Spanish Territory as Beale's wife knew the Governors in most of the areas .

 

[ECS]

Interesting If it was Captain Beale's associates they would have had a pass from the Governor of that Spanish Territory as Beale's wife new the Governors in most of the areas .

"Everything necessary for our purposes and for the prosecution of the work had been obtained from Santa Fe"- Jan 4, 1822, Thomas Beale letter to Robert Morriss from the 1885 Beale Papers.
There would have been a record if the governor of Santa Fe had issued a "pass".

 

[Old Silver]

Interesting If it was Captain Beale's associates they would have had a pass from the Governor of that Spanish Territory as Beale's wife new the Governors in most of the areas .

The prisoner's family in St. Louis was looking for someone to take to Santa Fe "something like an order" for their release. This was something that had been procured from the Spanish minister by the American Government, in triplicate. One copy was to be sent to Santa Fe by "some gentlemen who were expected to go shortly through, but who did not go." That was 1816.

 

[Old Silver]

"Everything necessary for our purposes and for the prosecution of the work had been obtained from Santa Fe"- Jan 4, 1822, Thomas Beale letter to Robert Morriss from the 1885 Beale Papers.
There would have been a record if the governor of Santa Fe had issued a "pass".

This document said it was not a passport.

 

[ECS]

This document said it was not a passport.

Are you referring to the documents concerning the Americans held prisoner that you posted above?

 

[Old Silver]

Are you referring to the documents concerning the Americans held prisoner that you posted above?

Yes. It said that the papers procured were not a passport. It called them "something like an order."

 

[ECS]

...and how is this related to the narrative text in the 1885 Beale Papers?
As I have mentioned on another thread, it was common practice of the Spanish to detain and hold captive Anglo- Americans who trespassed in their territory.
Thank you for posting these papers that support my statements on the other thread.

 

[Old Silver]

...and how is this related to the narrative text in the 1885 Beale Papers?
As I have mentioned on another thread, it was common practice of the Spanish to detain and hold captive Anglo- Americans who trespassed in their territory.
Thank you for posting these papers that support my statements on the other thread.

To know for sure if this is related to the Beale story I would have to know who they were. I don't have that information. Likewise, to know for sure that this does not relate to the Beale story I would have to know who they were. I don't know.

Why were these gentlemen going to Santa Fe in 1816 before changing their minds? Who were these gentlemen? Did they go the Santa Fe later? Can you answer these questions? If you can, then you might have the answer to how this relates to the Beale story. On the other hand, you might prove it has nothing to do with the Beale story, which is just as much a possibility.

 

[Old Silver]

As I have mentioned on another thread, it was common practice of the Spanish to detain and hold captive Anglo- Americans who trespassed in their territory.
Thank you for posting these papers that support my statements on the other thread.

And as I have said, what was the supposed fate of the Beale party? The Beale story saying that the party never returned is in line with the fact that they were traveling in a forbidden place. For all we know they may have died in a Mexican prison.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

If you knew the Governor of that Spanish Territory it is possible to visit with out paperwork at all, just a guest of the Governor at that time with no papers to prove you were there at all . The place they were getting gold from was in US territory and there is the possibility of one other town called Santa Fe that shows up in some old documents in the US territory at the time .

 

[Old Silver]

"After leaving St. Louis we were advised by our guide to form a regular military organization, with a captain, to be elected by the members, to whom should be given sole authority to manage our affairs, and, in cases of necessity, ensure united action. This was agreed to, and each member of the party bound himself by a solemn obligation to obey, at all times, the orders of their captain, or, in the event of refusal, to leave the company at once. This arrangement was to remain in force for two years, or for the period of our expected absence. Tyranny, partiality, incompetency, or other improper conduct on the part of the captain, was to be punished by deposing him from his office, if a majority of the company desired his dismissal. All this being arranged, and a set of laws framed, by which the conduct of the members was to be regulated, the election was held, and resulted in choosing me as their leader."

They left St. Louis on the 19th of May, 1817. AFTER leaving St. Louis is when they decided to elect a captain, which means that until then they were a nameless group of gentlemen, just as those in the article are called (those in St. Louis just before then, in the winter of 1816). The Beale Party was not called the Beale Party while they were in St. Louis. They were just 'some gentlemen.' And they were headed for Santa Fe.

 

[franklin]

"After leaving St. Louis we were advised by our guide to form a regular military organization, with a captain, to be elected by the members, to whom should be given sole authority to manage our affairs, and, in cases of necessity, ensure united action. This was agreed to, and each member of the party bound himself by a solemn obligation to obey, at all times, the orders of their captain, or, in the event of refusal, to leave the company at once. This arrangement was to remain in force for two years, or for the period of our expected absence. Tyranny, partiality, incompetency, or other improper conduct on the part of the captain, was to be punished by deposing him from his office, if a majority of the company desired his dismissal. All this being arranged, and a set of laws framed, by which the conduct of the members was to be regulated, the election was held, and resulted in choosing me as their leader."

They left St. Louis on the 19th of May, 1817. AFTER leaving St. Louis is when they decided to elect a captain, which means that until then they were a nameless group of gentlemen, just as those in the article are called (those in St. Louis just before then, in the winter of 1816). The Beale Party was not called the Beale Party while they were in St. Louis. They were just 'some gentlemen.' And they were headed for Santa Fe.

True they were not called the "Beale Party" They were called the "Benjamin Cooper Party" for their guide and his two nephews, Braxton and Stephen.

 

[Old Silver]

True they were not called the "Beale Party" They were called the "Benjamin Cooper Party" for their guide and his two nephews, Braxton and Stephen.

Where did you find that?

 

[franklin]

Where did you find that?

The Benjamin Cooper Party was traveling West while Jacob Fowler's Party was traveling East in 1822 at the exact date that Beale's Party would have in early July, 1822 in the Kansas Territory. If it was not the Beale Party then there is no Beale Party. That is the only party that showed up in Sante Fe beside the William Becknell party. Some of each party stayed in Sante Fe while Benjamin Cooper returned to St. Louis. It is all in the Journal of Jacob Fowler. All is written in my CD Book if anyone had read it. I know Rebel KGC has.

 

[Old Silver]

The Benjamin Cooper Party was traveling West while Jacob Fowler's Party was traveling East in 1822 at the exact date that Beale's Party would have in early July, 1822 in the Kansas Territory. If it was not the Beale Party then there is no Beale Party. That is the only party that showed up in Sante Fe beside the William Becknell party. Some of each party stayed in Sante Fe while Benjamin Cooper returned to St. Louis. It is all in the Journal of Jacob Fowler. All is written in my CD Book if anyone had read it. I know Rebel KGC has.

Thank you. That's very interesting.

 

[masterpoe]

The Benjamin Cooper Party was traveling West while Jacob Fowler's Party was traveling East in 1822 at the exact date that Beale's Party would have in early July, 1822 in the Kansas Territory. If it was not the Beale Party then there is no Beale Party. That is the only party that showed up in Sante Fe beside the William Becknell party. Some of each party stayed in Sante Fe while Benjamin Cooper returned to St. Louis. It is all in the Journal of Jacob Fowler. All is written in my CD Book if anyone had read it. I know Rebel KGC has.

Big territory not just one road in and out.

 

[ECS]

The Benjamin Cooper Party was traveling West while Jacob Fowler's Party was traveling East in 1822 at the exact date that Beale's Party would have in early July, 1822 ...

If the Cooper Party was traveling West at 9 miles a day while the Fowler Party was traveling East at 12 miles a day, how many miles a day did the Beale Party travel with leaden wagons of gold and silver in the July heat?