Whiskey Springs Maps

[cuzimloony]

Let's chat about all things Whiskey Springs (and surrounding area) in the Superstition Mountains. There are a number of maps with markings at Whiskey Springs or this area before it was named such (a Tom Kollenborn one is attached, the Barry Storm Wagoners map is another popular one) and also many stories, such as Jacob Waltz taking this route before turning around and threatening someone following him. Apparently there was a plane crash around here too.... Any and all discussion welcome.

 

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[SPARTANOC]

Let's chat about all things Whiskey Springs (and surrounding area) in the Superstition Mountains. There are a number of maps with markings at Whiskey Springs or this area before it was named such (a Tom Kollenborn one is attached, the Barry Storm Wagoners map is another popular one) and also many stories, such as Jacob Waltz taking this route before turning around and threatening someone following him. Apparently there was a plane crash around here too.... Any and all discussion welcome. View attachment 2180717

Joe

In taking the time to ponder on this 'Julia map', it is strange. The layout of North isn't correct if you look at where Weaver's Needle is positioned at. I've never put any consideration in it as legit - as I have gone over this one and others - which have proved to be somewhat none sense and lead to nowhere. Of course - many believe this one and others DO lead to "something", but as far as I know - no one has shown any results using this or the other maps that are out there. I'm in the camp of thinking - this is why the stories of said legends never get solved. Hunters keep using them as if someone will finally see something in them, that no one else did at the time of using them. The whole going in circles thing, includes these maps. Markmar likes to fuel the mystique of some of these maps - as he keeps saying many of them are cypher maps. I think he's full of it to be honest.

That being said - I have a theory that the Wagoner's story and the Lost Dutchman story have similar elements - crossing over Geo locations of paths taken into the Supes. From everything I check out on these 2 stories - I keep finding myself coming to the same general areas.

I know many here on TN are completely convinced that there's nothing of value on the West side of the Supes - but I disagree with that assessment. Seeing that Tom supposedly picked up some of Senner's gold - near the area of Flatiron AND having discussions with a certain TH that seems to have found a good location of sorts - leads me to believe there ARE some valuables hidden back in those mountains, favoring the West side. I'm also in the camp of believing the West side does in fact have Gold occurring naturally within the volcanic rock that lines the West side. Everyone (at least most) want to hold to just the East side - as gold has been discovered on that side as most of us know.

When it comes to Waltz and the Wagoner - both were elderly and weakened by their own health issues. Both men (who may be the same guy), couldn't have been able to traverse quickly into those steep canyons, nor do I believe they did that on a daily or weekly basis. I believe they didn't go that far into the Mountain and I believe they favored either the South end or the West side of the Supes. Many want to believe the North end is of interest and in some past cases, it was, but Waltz and Wagoner wouldn't have taken the time to go all the way up North, just to head back down into the Supes - just to get on the South end leading to Florence (for the Wagoner). Jacob had a residence in what is now Phoenix I believe- so he too didn't really have to go a long route just to reach the Supes. Waltz supposedly was able to get in there and back within a day. The Wagoner seem to have been able to get around quickly - in and out supposedly.

What I WILL say about Whiskey Springs - is that there was some work done back there and there are caves as you know - that were utilized by some for various reasons. I also have a theory that the De Grazia Paintings could very well be hidden in that general area - as he was known to cover some of that area and surrounding locations (i.e. Rogers canyon).

Attached is a version of the Julia map that I've obtained.

Again - I don't put much into this map.

And then there's this one, a version of Julia's map supposedly from Waltz himself:

The map I DO put my interest in is the Waltz map (see below). No one is sure as to who created it - whether that was Waltz or Pertrash - but recently its been used and it has lead to an area of great interest. I can't name the TH as of right now - as it's his work and I have to respect his privacy.

That particular Hunter is absolutely convinced he's found something huge in value. I don't think anyone has figured this one out - but the guy who I've mentioned has or so it seems.

-Matt

 

[cuzimloony]

I'm going to give you a better, more thought out response to this in a bit (I'm got a bunch of work today), but before I forget....... on those maps you posted, what is LITTLE MAN, or LITTLE MEN, along the Whisky Springs area? There has to be a story there.....

 

[cuzimloony]

Joe

In taking the time to ponder on this 'Julia map', it is strange. The layout of North isn't correct if you look at where Weaver's Needle is positioned at. I've never put any consideration in it as legit - as I have gone over this one and others - which have proved to be somewhat none sense and lead to nowhere. Of course - many believe this one and others DO lead to "something", but as far as I know - no one has shown any results using this or the other maps that are out there. I'm in the camp of thinking - this is why the stories of said legends never get solved. Hunters keep using them as if someone will finally see something in them, that no one else did at the time of using them. The whole going in circles thing, includes these maps. Markmar likes to fuel the mystique of some of these maps - as he keeps saying many of them are cypher maps. I think he's full of it to be honest.

That being said - I have a theory that the Wagoner's story and the Lost Dutchman story have similar elements - crossing over Geo locations of paths taken into the Supes. From everything I check out on these 2 stories - I keep finding myself coming to the same general areas.

I know many here on TN are completely convinced that there's nothing of value on the West side of the Supes - but I disagree with that assessment. Seeing that Tom supposedly picked up some of Senner's gold - near the area of Flatiron AND having discussions with a certain TH that seems to have found a good location of sorts - leads me to believe there ARE some valuables hidden back in those mountains, favoring the West side. I'm also in the camp of believing the West side does in fact have Gold occurring naturally within the volcanic rock that lines the West side. Everyone (at least most) want to hold to just the East side - as gold has been discovered on that side as most of us know.

When it comes to Waltz and the Wagoner - both were elderly and weakened by their own health issues. Both men (who may be the same guy), couldn't have been able to traverse quickly into those steep canyons, nor do I believe they did that on a daily or weekly basis. I believe they didn't go that far into the Mountain and I believe they favored either the South end or the West side of the Supes. Many want to believe the North end is of interest and in some past cases, it was, but Waltz and Wagoner wouldn't have taken the time to go all the way up North, just to head back down into the Supes - just to get on the South end leading to Florence (for the Wagoner). Jacob had a residence in what is now Phoenix I believe- so he too didn't really have to go a long route just to reach the Supes. Waltz supposedly was able to get in there and back within a day. The Wagoner seem to have been able to get around quickly - in and out supposedly.

What I WILL say about Whiskey Springs - is that there was some work done back there and there are caves as you know - that were utilized by some for various reasons. I also have a theory that the De Grazia Paintings could very well be hidden in that general area - as he was known to cover some of that area and surrounding locations (i.e. Rogers canyon).

Attached is a version of the Julia map that I've obtained.

View attachment 2180738

Again - I don't put much into this map.

And then there's this one, a version of Julia's map supposedly from Waltz himself:

View attachment 2180747



The map I DO put my interest in is the Waltz map (see below). No one is sure as to who created it - whether that was Waltz or Pertrash - but recently its been used and it has lead to an area of great interest. I can't name the TH as of right now - as it's his work and I have to respect his privacy.

View attachment 2180749

That particular Hunter is absolutely convinced he's found something huge in value. I don't think anyone has figured this one out - but the guy who I've mentioned has or so it seems.

-Matt

Ok....about the north layout on the Kollenborn (Julia) map: I don't see an issue with the north arrow. It seems, to me at least, you could put that north arrow anywhere on the map and as long as it's pointing the same direction that it's pointed currently, it's pointing north. I personally do believe in cypher maps, but not in generally in the Superstitions. If we were talking KGC or some sort of Masonic system, I believe cyphers are absolutely used. That said, none of what we have posted fit that category to me....so I'm with you, these aren't cypher maps.
About the Wagoners and Dutchman connections, I'll say this: I think the ACTUAL in REALITY Wagoners story has nothing to do with the Dutchman. BUT, for the sake of argument, the maps produced by Barry and Tom DO point to this area, whether fraudulently or not.
About Senner....his gold wasn't from the Superstitions. He just HID it here. That said....I've been up the flatiron and there are approximately 7,3425,768 crags and nooks to hide something. It would be very easy to hide some satchels in there.
About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion). And if the Mexican girl story is true, that means Jacob entered the mountains behind Miner's Needle, which an elderly man isn't doing even if he did manage to get the from the trailhead (video coming). It's very steep, loose rocks and slippery. However, when the entire town of Apache Junction needs this story to survive in order for they themselves to survive, it just needs to be true....right Loch Ness This is clearly a theory, however, but.....as I continue to hike the Sups, Im beginning to doubt ANY story of elderly walkers coming in to the Sups alone if they don't have horses to carry them (not their gear, but them). Tom Kollenborn even said the hike to Whisky Springs from Miner's Needle was strenuous, and he did it when he was young. I can't imagine an elderly man doing it. That said, I could be and am probably wrong, so I'm down to entertain the ideas and investigate them as I do.
About the DeGrazia paintings......do you think Bob Ward might've got those? He did know where they were.......
About your Waltz map..... I read a very good discussion about that on here the other day. Someone was explaining how one part is a "zoomed in" version of the other part, with GE pictures and all, but I don't remember a whole-heck-of-a-lot about what was said.... Interesting. He seemed convinced. Pic enclosed is of Flatiron and you can see some of the crags in the back.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Ok....about the north layout on the Kollenborn (Julia) map: I don't see an issue with the north arrow. It seems, to me at least, you could put that north arrow anywhere on the map and as long as it's pointing the same direction that it's pointed currently, it's pointing north. I personally do believe in cypher maps, but not in generally in the Superstitions. If we were talking KGC or some sort of Masonic system, I believe cyphers are absolutely used. That said, none of what we have posted fit that category to me....so I'm with you, these aren't cypher maps.
About the Wagoners and Dutchman connections, I'll say this: I think the ACTUAL in REALITY Wagoners story has nothing to do with the Dutchman. BUT, for the sake of argument, the maps produced by Barry and Tom DO point to this area, whether fraudulently or not.
About Senner....his gold wasn't from the Superstitions. He just HID it here. That said....I've been up the flatiron and there are approximately 7,3425,768 crags and nooks to hide something. It would be very easy to hide some satchels in there.
About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion). And if the Mexican girl story is true, that means Jacob entered the mountains behind Miner's Needle, which an elderly man isn't doing even if he did manage to get the from the trailhead (video coming). It's very steep, loose rocks and slippery. However, when the entire town of Apache Junction needs this story to survive in order for they themselves to survive, it just needs to be true....right Loch Ness This is clearly a theory, however, but.....as I continue to hike the Sups, Im beginning to doubt ANY story of elderly walkers coming in to the Sups alone if they don't have horses to carry them (not their gear, but them). Tom Kollenborn even said the hike to Whisky Springs from Miner's Needle was strenuous, and he did it when he was young. I can't imagine an elderly man doing it. That said, I could be and am probably wrong, so I'm down to entertain the ideas and investigate them as I do.
About the DeGrazia paintings......do you think Bob Ward might've got those? He did know where they were.......
About your Waltz map..... I read a very good discussion about that on here the other day. Someone was explaining how one part is a "zoomed in" version of the other part, with GE pictures and all, but I don't remember a whole-heck-of-a-lot about what was said.... Interesting. He seemed convinced. Pic enclosed is of Flatiron and you can see some of the crags in the back.
View attachment 2180757

Joe

Is this thread just you and I? Or is it opened to the public?

-Matt

 

[cuzimloony]

Joe

Is this thread just you and I? Or is it opened to the public?

-Matt

Open to the whole world brother . Totally public!

 

[SPARTANOC]

Joe

Check this out. A TN user just informed about this, this morning.

Watch the podcast and at the end - it talks of a bronze canon that was found in Arizona, Spanish in origin. Possibly Coronado's.

Fox 10 Phnx