When to stop searching and when to start searching for the original owner...

[Hunter101]

At what point would any of you start searching or the original owner of a find? What if there was a lead or no lead at all? At what point would you call it quits? For what kinds of finds do each of you try searching?

 

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[Hunter101]

I ask because I am getting ALOT of flack on a ring I just found.

 

[b3y0nd3r]

I found a lost class ring. After 1 year of trying to get it back to the original owner(she was reluctant to meet in person and I would not send it by mail), I was told officially by some on here, that I tried for a year and that was enough.

 

[Got-Good-Tones]

Guess it depends on how much info you have...(I.E. - Name inside ring, Initials of some sort, Class ring...etc...etc) Some items will have all kinds of info...others nothing at all... Pretty much a judgement call on your part...

Got-Good-Tones

 

[toddbbq]

Your call.. nobody can make that decision for you. Just my honest opinion

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I ask because I am getting ALOT of flack on a ring I just found.

Hunter101, Are you asking this question for legal purposes ? Or for moral/ethical purposes ?

If it's for legal purposes, here's your answer:

All 50 states have Lost & Found laws. Born out of wandering cattle laws of the 1800s I suppose. And there will be a dollar value criteria , in each state, where you are supposed to turn in lost items to the police. Typically a $50 to $100 value. And the laws make no distinction on when YOU think the item was lost. And the law makes no distinction on how the item is valued (eg.: melt value, or value when new, etc....) . Don't be so quick to think it's melt value (otherwise .... what's to stop you from claiming that a brand new I-phone that you "found" at the bus bunch is just a few cents worth of silicone and copper ?).

Hence, yes.... all those beach hunters on T'net who proudly post their latest ring show & tell finds, are all lawless miscreants for not running down the police station . To be in true compliance with the law, they're supposed to be turning them in, waiting 30 days, to see if someone claims it. And then paying storage and/or advertising (L&F in local paper) fees to the police, if they want to try to claim it . And if the police don't return it (claiming that someone else claimed it), they are under no obligation to tell you who claimed it.

Yes, I know all the beach hunters on T'net are now crying alligator tears of guilt for not keep the L&F laws of their states .

 

[Hunter101]

Hunter101, Are you asking this question for legal purposes ? Or for moral/ethical purposes ?

If it's for legal purposes, here's your answer:

All 50 states have Lost & Found laws. Born out of wandering cattle laws of the 1800s I suppose. And there will be a dollar value criteria , in each state, where you are supposed to turn in lost items to the police. Typically a $50 to $100 value. And the laws make no distinction on when YOU think the item was lost. And the law makes no distinction on how the item is valued (eg.: melt value, or value when new, etc....) . Don't be so quick to think it's melt value (otherwise .... what's to stop you from claiming that a brand new I-phone that you "found" at the bus bunch is just a few cents worth of silicone and copper ?).

Hence, yes.... all those beach hunters on T'net who proudly post their latest ring show & tell finds, are all lawless miscreants for not running down the police station . To be in true compliance with the law, they're supposed to be turning them in, waiting 30 days, to see if someone claims it. And then paying storage and/or advertising (L&F in local paper) fees to the police, if they want to try to claim it . And if the police don't return it (claiming that someone else claimed it), they are under no obligation to tell you who claimed it.

Yes, I know all the beach hunters on T'net are now crying alligator tears of guilt for not keep the L&F laws of their states .

Then are we required to turn in ALL finds? Seems to be a slippery slope.

As far as legal vs moral, it’s mainly moral. People say to donate to them or find the owner.

 

[dirtlooter]

Some things lend themselves to be returned much easier than others because they actually have some sort of info on them. Even so, not everyone is receptive (One family got their father's WWII dog tags returned but they were not exactly concerned about them, in fact they didn't care about him. Sounded like he had been not the best of fathers.) It still comes down to you as the finder, I have made some very happy people that still keep in touch with us. In some cases, there is no way of ever returning. One has to be careful on how one goes about it because there are a lot of people out there that would be more than glad to claim it as theirs and it is not. I have taken wallets to the police station as well as just returning them to the owner. I found that turning them in, I was less likely to be held accountable for any possible missing money etc. I have returned checkbooks, credit cards, driver licenses and other things and never got so much as a thank you but I felt good about what I had done and that was what counted to me. Good luck

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Then are we required to turn in ALL finds? Seems to be a slippery slope.....

Only required to turn in all things that exceed your state's L&F law value criteria threshold.

Yes, it's a slippery slope. There are various humorous (yet scary for md'r ) examples. Like :

The true story of the 3rd grader who took his dad's coin collection to school for show & tell (without his dad's knowledge). And then the numbskull kid passed out the coins to fellow classmates during recess. The kids, thinking that silver dollars, bust halves, etc... were like play-money, promptly went out and lost them in the school's sandbox.

Imagine the surprise of the next md'r to hit that sandbox, when he's finding bust halves, silver dollars, etc... ? The md'r figured that that it was his "lucky day", and that the coins must have come in with the sand that must have come from the beach (since the school was only a few miles from the beach). Woohoo.

When the father got wind of what had happened to his coins a few days later, the classmates were instructed by the teacher and principal to "turn back in all the coins that little Johnny had passed out". Needless to say, the father didn't get all his coins back.

Ok, you tell me: Who do those coins belong to now ? The lucky md'r ? Or the father ? If you were the father and got wind of the fact that some yahoo md'r had your coins, do you think you have any right to say "return them to me" ? Or is it now "finders keepers ? Is that Bust half worth 50 cents ? (the stated value printed on the coin). Or it is worth the numismatic value of hundreds of dollars, and thus should have been turned in to the police ?

See the slippery slope ?

Yet for some odd reason, these L&F laws are always ignored by md'rs . Yet those same md'rs will turn over heaven and earth to ask permissions and inquire of legalities when hunting any park or school or beach or forest, to "make sure md'ing is allowed".

 

[McKinney_5900]

I won't feel guilty enough to spend any time looking for an owner, unless there is at least some personal info stamped on it.

 

[b3y0nd3r]

Only required to turn in all things that exceed your state's L&F law value criteria threshold.

Yes, it's a slippery slope. There are various humorous (yet scary for md'r ) examples. Like :

The true story of the 3rd grader who took his dad's coin collection to school for show & tell (without his dad's knowledge). And then the numbskull kid passed out the coins to fellow classmates during recess. The kids, thinking that silver dollars, bust halves, etc... were like play-money, promptly went out and lost them in the school's sandbox.

Imagine the surprise of the next md'r to hit that sandbox, when he's finding bust halves, silver dollars, etc... ? The md'r figured that that it was his "lucky day", and that the coins must have come in with the sand that must have come from the beach (since the school was only a few miles from the beach). Woohoo.

When the father got wind of what had happened to his coins a few days later, the classmates were instructed by the teacher and principal to "turn back in all the coins that little Johnny had passed out". Needless to say, the father didn't get all his coins back.

Ok, you tell me: Who do those coins belong to now ? The lucky md'r ? Or the father ? If you were the father and got wind of the fact that some yahoo md'r had your coins, do you think you have any right to say "return them to me" ? Or is it now "finders keepers ? Is that Bust half worth 50 cents ? (the stated value printed on the coin). Or it is worth the numismatic value of hundreds of dollars, and thus should have been turned in to the police ?

See the slippery slope ?

Yet for some odd reason, these L&F laws are always ignored by md'rs . Yet those same md'rs will turn over heaven and earth to ask permissions and inquire of legalities when hunting any park or school or beach or forest, to "make sure md'ing is allowed".

The son took them without the father's knowledge, they are considered stolen and must be returned. The law is very clear on this.

Finder's keepers is more when the owner lost the item(item lost due to negligence).

"Hunter101, Are you asking this question for legal purposes ? Or for moral/ethical purposes ?

If it's for legal purposes, here's your answer:

All 50 states have Lost & Found laws. Born out of wandering cattle laws of the 1800s I suppose. And there will be a dollar value criteria , in each state, where you are supposed to turn in lost items to the police. Typically a $50 to $100 value. And the laws make no distinction on when YOU think the item was lost. And the law makes no distinction on how the item is valued (eg.: melt value, or value when new, etc....) . Don't be so quick to think it's melt value (otherwise .... what's to stop you from claiming that a brand new I-phone that you "found" at the bus bunch is just a few cents worth of silicone and copper ?).

Hence, yes.... all those beach hunters on T'net who proudly post their latest ring show & tell finds, are all lawless miscreants for not running down the police station . To be in true compliance with the law, they're supposed to be turning them in, waiting 30 days, to see if someone claims it. And then paying storage and/or advertising (L&F in local paper) fees to the police, if they want to try to claim it . And if the police don't return it (claiming that someone else claimed it), they are under no obligation to tell you who claimed it.

Yes, I know all the beach hunters on T'net are now crying alligator tears of guilt for not keep the L&F laws of their states".

This above is why I get along with you so well.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

And I always enjoy your forum inputs too b3yOnd3r

The son took them without the father's knowledge, they are considered stolen and must be returned. The law is very clear on this.....

Ok. But was the md'r obligated to "search for the owner" ? Was he within his rights to automatically assume they were period losses, and thus under no obligation to "seek out an owner" ? Ie.: the CA state's L&F laws don't apply ? Or do they ?

 

[Kray Gelder]

If the item found is traceable to the owner ( class ring, wallet, engraved jewelry ), then I would make a reasonable attempt...myself. I would not hand it over to local authorities. If, after an honest effort is put forth on my part, there's no joy, then the item is mine. Simple.

I once returned by mail, a Bishop's wallet I found in a gas station bathroom stall, stuffed with cash, and cards. Got no reply from the ungrateful character. I would do it again, however.

 

[RustyGold]

If there is info inside the ring then I would make the attempt to return it. Tiffany jewelry usually has a traceable Serial #.
With zero info then I would keep it. Good luck!

 

[b3y0nd3r]

And I always enjoy your forum inputs too b3yOnd3r



Ok. But was the md'r obligated to "search for the owner" ? Was he within his rights to automatically assume they were period losses, and thus under no obligation to "seek out an owner" ? Ie.: the CA state's L&F laws don't apply ? Or do they ?

If he is aware that they were stolen, then yes. Otherwise, it's fair game.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If he is aware that they were stolen, then yes. Otherwise, it's fair game.

I would agree with you.

But legally speaking, that's not the law .... as it is written. The law doesn't leave it up to the individual finder to decide "stolen vs not stolen", "abandoned vs not-abandoned", "lost a long time ago vs lost-recently", etc..... It merely states a dollar value cut-off point.

Again, not saying I don't agree with you, but .... just sayin', that if the question were one of legalities, all of us md'rs are lawless miscreants.

 

[Toecutter]

I would only look for owner if it was obvious, if its not obvious then its finders keepers for this guy...

 

[mh9162013]

I would agree with you.

But legally speaking, that's not the law .... as it is written. The law doesn't leave it up to the individual finder to decide "stolen vs not stolen", "abandoned vs not-abandoned", "lost a long time ago vs lost-recently", etc..... It merely states a dollar value cut-off point.

Again, not saying I don't agree with you, but .... just sayin', that if the question were one of legalities, all of us md'rs are lawless miscreants.

I would love to see a court case make it way all the way up to the US Supreme Court challenging these L&F laws as violations of due process (not saying they are, just saying that's one possible legal argument the finder could potentially make).

I think that despite what the law says, I think with the right facts, a court could modify or strike down these laws on public policy grounds, using the argument that the finder should be compensated for what he or she did (find a lost object of value). I'm thinking about the laws in England (or are they UK laws?) where certain relics found by a metal detector must be turned in to the appropriate authorities and then returned to the finder or fair market compensation provided if the relic is kept by the government or public institution (source: Brandon Neice, aka: Dr. Tones).

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I would love to see a court case make it way all the way up to the US Supreme Court challenging these L&F laws as violations of due process (not saying they are, just saying that's one possible legal argument the finder could potentially make).

I think that despite what the law says, I think with the right facts, a court could modify or strike down these laws on public policy grounds, using the argument that the finder should be compensated for what he or she did (find a lost object of value). I'm thinking about the laws in England (or are they UK laws?) where certain relics found by a metal detector must be turned in to the appropriate authorities and then returned to the finder or fair market compensation provided if the relic is kept by the government or public institution (source: Brandon Neice, aka: Dr. Tones).

Good post mh-9162013 . Keep in mind that the UK laws, that you speak of, would a) never apply to this topic, and b) never apply to the USA

Because: a) Those "wonderful" UK laws you allude to , do not apply to personal property (eg.: if someone just lost their Apple I-phone there), and b) the "crown" here in the USA does not own all the resources @ the ground. Versus in the UK, where .... yes ..... resources (oil, gold, coal, etc...) on/under the ground does belong the crown, in the UK.

Thus those UK rules have utterly no-bearing on the subject. Nor should/would we seek any such laws here in the USA. Lest ..... we simply open up a bigger can-of-worms, and only get STRICTER laws employed against us. D/t our "swatting hornet's nests".

 

[mh9162013]

Good post mh-9162013 . Keep in mind that the UK laws, that you speak of, would a) never apply to this topic, and b) never apply to the USA

Because: a) Those "wonderful" UK laws you allude to , do not apply to personal property (eg.: if someone just lost their Apple I-phone there), and b) the "crown" here in the USA does not own all the resources @ the ground. Versus in the UK, where .... yes ..... resources (oil, gold, coal, etc...) on/under the ground does belong the crown, in the UK.

Thus those UK rules have utterly no-bearing on the subject. Nor should/would we seek any such laws here in the USA. Lest ..... we simply open up a bigger can-of-worms, and only get STRICTER laws employed against us. D/t our "swatting hornet's nests".

I was thinking an American L&F law could be a heavily modified version of the UK law. Something along the lines of:

You find something of value (what the threshold should be, I have no idea, but $300 sounds like a good number) and you're legally required to take it to an appropriate authority (let's say your local police department). The authority would have some website or publication where they list things that have been found. They list it and if it's not claimed within a set period of time (30 days, for example), you get to keep it. If it is claimed and the owner can prove ownership, the only way they can get it back is to pay the finder the greater of fair market value of what it took to find the item or 50% of the item's fair market value (could be any percentage really, but I would think 25% would be the minimum). If the owner doesn't want to pay, then they don't get the item back and it stays with the finder. The only way to owner can get out of paying to recover the lost item is to show that they were making a reasonable and good faith ACTIVE effort to find the item at the time it was found.

The bottom line is that I don't think we, as a society, should be allowing owners of items that have been long lost to recover the item when they aren't willing to spend the time or effort to search for the item themselves.