What would you do? (School responded)

[FooserPaul]

I was detecting at our schools admistration building today that used to be a school... A gentleman approached me, he asked what I was doing as he presented his business card with the title of Director of Buildings and Grounds for the School system...

He told me that I could not be there and I asked if this was public property and he confirmed that it was... He explained that I should be checking in and asking permission to be on the grounds... I asked if I needed permission to use the swings or play with my kids there on the weekend and he said that was different...

The only state reg in CT for metal detecting cover state parks... there no local town regs and nothing at the state school web site or the local schools web site about property usage or metal detecting... After he asked me to leave the 4th time I left... I suggested that he call the town clerk and or board of ed concerning any regulations... He was not aware of any but kept tell me he did NOT think I could be there... He is the Director of building & ground... He should know right... I was trying to be polite, but was not doing a good job at making any point... He said that someone complained that I was digging the place up... I explained that I had dug about 200 holes over the last week and asked him if he could see any of them and I showed him how I cut a pug, put the dirt on a towel and only leave footprints as I am very respectful to the property...

Here is the Email I sent him:

Mr. XXXXXXXX,

I wished that we had meet under different circumstances, but that being said my recall of the state regulation only speaks to State Parks and is the only state regulation to deal with Metal Detectors...

I have talked to the town clerks in XXXXXXXX asking for local regulations regarding metal detectors and was told there are none. I have been to the Ct. State Department of Education and the XXXXX Public school site and don't see regulation regarding property usage or the specific call out of metal detectors or metal detecting .

Having said that I thought I had checked the federal side (Can't be on National Historic site... like Ft. Griswold or Ft. Trumbal), CT State, and local laws and/rules. There are no posted signs and I would not think that I have to get permission to use say the swings on a weekend day.

Additionally I would not enter a school property during school hours with the knowledge that children were present... I know the XXXXX building is administration as listed in the groton schools web page.

I've attached the State Regulation for your review.

As a metal detector I would never want to knowingly break the law or go against regulations. I have never left any holes or trash, even the trash we dig up is removed (IE pull tabs, cans, etc...) I always leave gates and the grounds as I found them only leaving behind footsteps at most. I am always respectful to the property and have been back to most public places I hunt at dozens of times. I have talked with local park rangers and the police over the years and have never had an issue, been challenged or caused any type of issue.

For today I am sorry that I startled someone for them to make a complaint...

How do we proceed from here? I would like to be respectful and metal detect at the local schools, but want to make sure that I am following all federal, state and local laws. I can't seem to find any regulation banning metal detecting or the use of this public property but would like to do whatever I can ensure you I am not someone here to do any type of harm to the property, facilities, or people within...

I only pointed out the number of targets I recovered last weekend so you could see that you can't tell I've been there. I have spent hundreds of hours at local schools recovering targets with the same results... Respect for the property and the people.

Thank you for your time today and again I'm sorry to have startled anyone and I look forward to your response in this matter.

Respectfully,
Paul XXXXXX

Did I handle all of this right, will this be on the next agenda for a town / board of education meeting? Should I wait to hear back from him... Should I head back over I've never had an issue or been challenged... The police wave to me all of the time...

Frustrated... confused... Not sure what to do...
Paul

 

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[Charlie P. (NY)]

Re: What would you do?

You did right in the latter. But he is "Director of Buildings and Grounds for the School system" and so it is his decision. If you had asked first you'd probably have made out fine.

You can't detect at Ft. Knox, the White House, Ellis Island, any State prison, any NY state park (well, you can detect but you can't disturb the soil or remove objects from it) - all "publicly owned" facilities.

For all he knows you are a child molester and there are no batteries in your detector. Or, he is afraid you'll mess up the grounds he gets paid to keep nice. No school I know of allows an adult on-site that hasn't first checked in at the main office.

ALWAYS ask first even if it is public property. If you ain't mowing it or paying taxes on it then it is not yours. The "public" owns the military and the air-traffic control system in the U.S. But you can't just show up and start using what you want.

 

[FooserPaul]

Re: What would you do?

Understood and point taken... but... I can use the grounds for anything else I want after school or on the weekends... and I don't have or can't check in on the weekends to use the swings with my daughter....

And this was the school administration build... No children... the school closed in the 60's as a school...

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Re: What would you do?

Ah. The letter was well done and hopefully you'll get permission. Plan B would be to bop in and ask the main office/Admin folks if you can detect off hours. They will probably say "OK".

I can tell you if they are allowing R/C airplanes that I do more damage to the ground on occasion with my aircraft than I do when digging coins.

 

[Texasgopher]

Re: What would you do?

Hey Paul, I not only think you did the right thing, I think you are representing us all very proudly. Your responses were the most polite and compotent I have ever heard in one of these situation. While at the same time you did not back down or cave under accusation when we all know you were doing nothing wrong. I have only ever been asked to leave a public property once and I know how you feel. It's a strange feeling when you know someone thinks you are doing something wrong when you know that, not only are you not doing anything wrong, you are more careful and respectful then most people when they simply walk their dog. I wouldn't sweat it. I could think of no better way to handle it then how you did. I might even be asking you for advice on how to word something in the future, you are good at it! Let me know what his reply is. I'll bet, after your continued cautiousness and knowledge of the law, he agrees to let you metal detect. You might ask him if he would like to try it sometime and you can show him the ropes. Ya never know.

TG

 

[DKinPA]

Re: What would you do?

Great letter, I look forward to seeing his reply!

Dave

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: What would you do?

Paul, thanx for typing out this play-by-play for open comment here.

First I would say that county, state, and federal laws have nothing to do with city level laws. So to have said "I checked with state laws" is detrimental to your argument. Because, let's say, that your state did have something there (like some state parks dept's supposedly say no metal detecting), it would still have nothing to do with your situation. So don't even bring it up, as they are entirely different governmental entities, that have entirely different rules.

Ok, next I agree with you that you don't need permission to hunt public schools where it's not specifically disallowed (much like your swing set or a jogging the track analogy). To think otherwise, is to have already lost the battle. Because to ask "can I detect?" merely pre-assumes something is inherently wrong with your hobby, that you had to ask ..... to begin with Ie.: why would you be asking if it isn't inherently damaging or wrong in some way? You certainly wouldn't have asked to whistle dixie would you? So with that inescapable psychology, you could risk getting a "no", where quite frankly, no one would ever have cared or noticed (till you ask). Sure this doesn't gaurantee you'll never run into a busy-body, as in your example. Here's a post on that subject:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,249049.0.html

Now on to your specific situation: I too had something similar happen, that I followed through with an attorney friend of mine. The results were quite telling, and I believe will apply to your situation as well:

I, like you, was detecting at a public place, where public access is not disallowed (walking, jogging, flying frisbees, etc...). It was a city property in a city that had nothing specific addressing metal detecting. Lo and behold a city gardener came up and booted me (I wasn't even in the midst of any target recoveries, so "holes" or "digging" had nothing to do with it). I, like yourself, rehearsed with this gentleman that I was doing nothing wrong, breaking no rules, etc... He, like your situation, continued to rehearse "you can't be doing that here" for essentially what was only "because I said so". I didn't want to argue with him anymore, so I left. I then got in contact with a lawyer friend, and told him the whole story. My basic thought was that, if there's no law prohibiting an activity, then they can't boot you, right? I mean "doesn't it have to be written somewhere?? Otherwise it's arbitrary!! I mean, it would be like if a cop or gardener said 'you can't be in this park because you're wearing a purple shirt, so scram' " Here's the answer my lawyer friend gave, and I think it will apply to your situation too:

Any government employee, who is tasked with any form of enforcement, on any level, is given a BIG leeway/latitude of interpretation. And no, it does not need to be specifically written. Judges will usually always side with appointed powers. They can morph some other bologna like "don't disturb the earthworms", if they want, and their supervisors above them will most likely side with them, not you. To me, this still reaked of arbitrary enforcement, and nilly-willy interpretations. So he explained it like this: If there were a rule in a park that said "no dog walking", and let's say you had a 3-legged dog and walked him there. When an officer attempts to give you a ticket, you point out: but officer, my dog only has 3 legs. Thus he HOPS, not WALKS. Therefore I wasn't in violation". You will loose that argument in front of a judge. Another example would be "But officer, I didn't violate the nudity laws, because I had one sock on. Therefore I wasn't technically nude" And on and on the semantics would go. For these reasons, in the interest of allowing appointed powers to do their jobs, law enforcers are given a great deal of interpretation and enforcement judgement calls, lest everyone be arguing with them all the time.

So in your case, although we here on the forum would all agree you are in the right, yet he can truly say "because I think you'll harm the grass" (even if you proved by a team of scientists that this was not so, you will still end up at the whims of image, not reality).

BTW, in this situation, you could never face a ticket or fine or any other such legal consequences, since this is a situation where there was nothing specifically written. You would have to violate a warning again and again to get into any actual legal problems, IMHO. I know of one fellow who...... just like yourself felt this wasn't fair, and he wasn't doing any harm. So he purposefully went back to the same parks again and again wanting to be seen. Eventually he got a ticket (which is what he wanted). He waited for his day in court, and pleaded his case. In the space of 30 seconds, the judge dismissed it as frivolous and the md'r went on his way, never to be bothered in those parks again. Now this was for the big city of San Francisco (where cops and judges are dealing with murders, drugs, etc...) so I don't think it would work in a small mayberry RFD town

If you're in a small town, you may just have to fight it (or else find some place else to go). If you were doing real good in that spot (what were you finding?) then I'd continue to fight it just like you're doing. Or, if you want to make matters simple, just stay off his radar, and detect at more discreet times. After 6pm is a magical time. Nice, peaceful and no busy-bodies

 

[Saturna]

Re: What would you do?

Tom_in_CA, I always enjoy your "real world" posts.

 

[watercolor]

Re: What would you do?

A tactfully written response on your part. However, I think you made a mistake
by challenging him on his own ground. Even though you may have been LEGALLY
within your rights, it's still every public employee's job to know who's on first or
on third, especially when schools are involved. In your situation, you caught him
off guard explaining your rights and he felt backed into a corner. . . and his immediate
reaction (he felt he had no choice) was to read you the riot act.

When all his feathers are smoothed, I hope he'll see it your way with no hard feelings.

 

[bula]

Re: What would you do?

Just a new guy with a new job & a big title, trying to push his weight around. I think you will have to go higher up the ladder to get this resolved. Good luck.

 

[OldOwl]

Re: What would you do?

I find it amazing how little people who should know the rules do not. Especially since I have become a fire arms instructor in a liberal state. I MUST know what I'm doing and talking about. cops are the last ones to ask the laws.

But it reminds me of way back when I was in commercial fishing. One of my product lines was seaweed. I would collect it at low tide, into new onion bags, and as the tide came in load them all, often 50 to 100 bushels into my boat. Once, in the dead of winter with snow and ice on the rocks, a middle aged gentleman risked his life navigating the rocks and mud several hundred yards out to where I was working in the harbor to ask me "What are you doing?" Like it was some of his business. So, be in a Christmastime mood, I told him I sold it wholesale to lobster pounds. He then asked me if a license was required. I told him "No," and he went away. But I watched where he went, and later found out he was a town selectman, probably just didn't want me making any money in front of HIS water front property. Weeks later, I was confronted by a town game warden just a half mile down the coast. The harbor was iced up, and I was dragging about 60 bags to my truck on the shore line in a wooded area. She said to me, "I don't know if it's OK for you to be taking this stuff, I don't want you removing iy until I find out." Every fiber of me wanted to say "Here's my driver's license. When you DO find out, you know where to find me." But it was a short drive home to get warm and I figured the tide would come higher and make it easier to get the weed to my truck, and I told her, "I'll be back in one hour and I'm taking it, so find out fast."

While I was home changing and having coffee, I called a friend at the state level, and he said, "She has no right to impede your activity, and if for any reason you lose the sale because of the time lost, SHE is liable for the value and will have to pay you for the loss." When she returned I already had the truck half loaded, and she said something stupid to cover her butt. I ignored her.

Another time, my buddy and I were scuba diving for coins and jewelry under a bridge people dive off of and have for ages. While my partner was hand fanning the bottom, I surfaced for a moment, and heard a voice from on top the bridge. It was a town cop. "Come up here, I want to see your license." I said I'm not driving what do I need a license for?" He said "Your lobster license." I siad "I'm not diving for lobster." He yelled down, "What are you diving for then?" I pondered that for a moment, and said "None of your business," and deflated my BC and sunk back to the bottom 20 feet below. When I got done for the day, I found a parking ticket on my car, LOL! I immediately drove to the selectman's office and told him what had happened, and he tore up the ticket.

The world is full of people with badges who know little or nothing.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: What would you do?

old-owl, great post. thanx

 

[FooserPaul]

Re: What would you do?

old-owl, great post. thanx

I agree... 10000% Great post... After all he is the grounds keep and said the same thing... I don't think you can do this...

We'll see how this all plays out... I'll give him this week and see if he replies...

Thank you for the responses... I feel much better about my position after reading all of your words and encouragement...

Paul

 

[BIG61AL]

Re: What would you do?

I would have stood my ground. Public property and no written laws means he has no LEGAL right to tell you to leave. Let him call the cops. Let the cops tell him to him to leave you alone.

 

[FooserPaul]

Re: What would you do?

He responded:

These are some the issues I see with anyone digging holes on school property without the knowledge of those responsible:

· An unidentified person on school property is not an issue as long as that person does not appear to be doing anything unusual or is not on the grounds when school children present. When school children are not present and school is in session it is our practice to challenge strangers.
· Digging holes in the lawn that could damage turf or create a hazard is an issue.
· If something of value is discovered on or under public property, that item is likely the property of the Town.
· While people using the recreational equipment on school grounds are welcome and are rarely challenged, I believe someone digging holes in the lawn is not a typical use of public property and should be questioned every time by those responsible for the safety and security of school property.
· Digging holes on public property where there could be buried utilities requires “call before you dig” to affected utility companies and to the property owner. I am not sure how deep you may dig to unearth an item but it could be deep enough to require mapping of underground utilities first. At Fitch High School for example, until recently high voltage wires were buried with no conduit just 24 inches below grade between the school and Groton Long Point Road.
· Should a person digging holes on public property be injured for any reason, Groton could have exposure to liability.


I do not want anyone unduly denied access to public property. As required under Board of Education P1330 approval for use of school facilities will require insurance naming the district as additionally insured. Also, an application must indicate where the proposed digging would take place and when, and we would have to know when the digging was complete so the area could be checked. It is also possible that the area would have to be mapped for underground utilities prior to digging as required by law.

Please let me know if you would like to request permission to continue digging on school grounds. If you do, we will have to work out the details before you can continue.

 

[BigDan]

I feel really bad for you Fooser

I think you've run up against a zealot. Although a simple, "live and let live" attitude would probably serve this administrator best...he's chosen to challenge you with every circumstance, situation, problem, that comes to his mind. The thing is, he doesn't have to let you dig...or not without at least making it hard for you. (Utility lines) And, he's thrown away good public relations in favor of exhibiting his power.

Our high school closed the tennis courts to the public due to "vandalism" (There had been none, some kids got caught parking their bikes inside the court.) A father of a girls tennis team member wanted to help her practise on her own time..and fought the decision, correctly pointing out that the school uses the city park courses for games as well. His argument for "share and share alike" won out and the athletic director opened the courts back up.

All I can think of, is you go over this guys head, you might mention that next time a vote comes up for more money for the schools...you and those you speak with might recall the poor community spirit exhibited by the administrator. Good luck, oh..and don't get "injured" digging into those lines underground.

Big Dan

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Big-dan, I don't think it's going to help to go over this guy's head. The very second anyone mentions that evil word "holes", you can just kiss any hope good-bye. Just as I said in my earlier response, there need not be a specific rule, since appointed powers are given the latitude to morph rules to fit a variety of situations. Let's face it: rules and law books simply can't list everything that is dis-allowed. Therefore they are written loosely, to apply to a myriad of situations that may arise. And the powers-that-be will always side on the side of their underlings in the field.

Now, with that said, do I think that therefore we must "ask permission", where it's not specifically dis-allowed? No. It just means though that you'd have to violate multiple warnings to be in any sort of trouble. As opposed to violating a posted rule, is a different matter. 99% of the time, none of us hear any flack from busy-bodies, right? So better just to keep a low profile and avoid busy-bodies (after-hours hunting is so peaceful anyhow! ) to begin with.

As for the "utilies" thing, I've heard line given to another md'r, when he "sought permission" to hunt in his city's parks (as if permission were even needed). The desk clerk in that situation looked hard all through her rule books, and could find nothing addressing the question, so she was about to tell him "go ahead". But just as she did, the md'r chimed in "and I'll be sure to cover my holes and you won't even be able to tell I was there!" (I'm sure he thought he was a real winner with that line, eh?). When the desk clerk heard that, she says "hold on", and proceeds to go back to various office doors behind her, apparently talking to various superiors. She comes back to the front desk with a utility company brochure that had the printed warning "call before you dig" She tells the guy "I'm going to have to tell you no, because according to this, you have to call before you dig". The frustrated md'r tries to tell the lady, "But mamm, I'm only going to be digging a few inches! Pipes and lines are multiple feet down " The lady looks again at the pamplet, leafs through the pages, and tells the guy "sorry sir, the warning doesn't say HOW deep, it just says "any" digging, so I'm still going to have to tell you no"

Now obviously this is bogus, and we all know we'll never even approach the depth of pipes and stuff, right? So I still say out-of-site is out-of-mind. If YOU know you'll do no harm (leave no marks, etc...) and YOU know you'll never harm utilities, then that seems good enough to me. Because you will usually never win the "image" debate. Image is everything, and reality means nothing, unfortunately. Therefore I do not make myself a subject to begin with, and have gotten to where I just do all my hunting very early, weekends, very late (even night hunting mostly these days), etc... And it's so peaceful No pesky kids, no busy-body adults, etc....

 

[lafatlife]

I live in CT as well and had a similar problem. I had received permission from the Towns Rec department who takes care of the fields and parks, to include the high school. I also received permission from the Custodians and the Principal and Vice Principal. Didn't have any problems with that.

I had problems with the everyday busy bodies in town that kept calling the police on me. I finally typed up a letter and had the Principal sign it and got it in writing from the Rec department and went and talked with the Chief of Police. He took a copy and had it posted on the blotter so that all the officers would see it and leave us alone.

The officers were always nice about it and I left as soon as they asked me to. I just got the permission in writing and that was the end of it, so far anyway. I don't know how this year will go but we will see.

 

[truckinbutch]

Take your little girl to swing on a weekend . Then call this jackweed at home and tell him you are on the way to the emergency room with her after she was injured on his swings . You need
to know what to tell the ER relative to 'his' insurance and ability to pay for the visit since this
happened on 'his' property . Lawyers and such could also be mentioned . Worst/best case the
jerk will ban everyone ..... Then you got all the other po'ed parents as a large group raising cane . Capitalise on it to get equality for all

 

[BARGuy]

Very interesting reading. Not sure which route I would take. I would bet however, that this is a coming trend...Along with gated/fenced/locked schools after hours. The weirdos & sickos are going to see to that. And the $50 Walmart dectorists with their folding camp shovels.

Fortunately, I've been able to finesse approval for all my excavations, but schoolyard coinshooting will soon be a thing of the past. And the dude I saw this evening with an old BXXXXXXXX detector & a miner's pick...No pouch for trash...No headphones...will be a large part of the cause.

And I'd bet next month's SS that he doesn't belong to/read any forum on this net, so there's no way we can reach/teach this yo-yo anything.

And today, while spending an hour of this beautiful day at a soccer field, I refilled 12-15 holes left by another, unseen 'tectorist.