✅ SOLVED What type of weapon used this Ctg?

[Dug]

Hi;

We got into a small site where a 1855 dime, bunch of toe taps, old suspender buckle, and a large rectangular rifle sling were dug. We also dug about six of these bullet cases. By my reckoning they had a .54 or .58 bullet loaded in them. The base of the case measures 21mm and the ctg is 33mm long. As you can see the cartridge lacked a primer and whatever weapon fired it left a double strike in the center. All the ctgs had the double strike mark. Can anyone ID the round and the weapon that would have fired it?

 

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[TomPA]

Could it be a 50 Remington (M71 Army) pistol? In use in some variation from around 1865 through WWI. Originaly the 50 Remington Navy (1867)

 

[creskol]

sure its not the base to a lipstick tube or a perfume bottle?

 

[tennessee]

Field Gatling gun. 58 cal. Page 88 cartridge no. 131 McKee and Mason " Civil War Projectiles ". Very interesting, congratulations, thanks for sharing.

 

[Dug]

These are bullet cases

sure its not the base to a lipstick tube or a perfume bottle?

These are definetly very old brass bullet or very early shotgun shell cases. I have dug Spencers and Sharps, but this is the first time I have dug shell casings that had a double pin strike mark on the center instead of the rim. As stated we dug six of these, and there are likely more out there as it was the last spot of the day with the sun going down on us. The area is wilderness of the SC lowcountry.

Was hoping someone with some early firearm knowledge would wade in on this post.

 

[Dug]

Thanks!

Field Gatling gun. 58 cal. Page 88 cartridge no. 131 McKee and Mason " Civil War Projectiles ". Very interesting, congratulations, thanks for sharing.

Thank you Sir! That is so cool.

 

[creskol]

These are definetly very old brass bullet or very early shotgun shell cases. I have dug Spencers and Sharps, but this is the first time I have dug shell casings that had a double pin strike mark on the center instead of the rim. As stated we dug six of these, and there are likely more out there as it was the last spot of the day with the sun going down on us. The area is wilderness of the SC lowcountry.

Was hoping someone with some early firearm knowledge would wade in on this post.

Maybe it's just the photo angle, but most casings seem to have a pretty well defined rim, whereas yours does not. That is why I asked.

 

[Dug]

Maybe it's just the photo angle, but most casings seem to have a pretty well defined rim, whereas yours does not. That is why I asked.

Sorry about the picture, I'm an old dog trying to use new technology with a digital camera and having to use a desk lamp for lighting since the camera's flash has a tendency to blot out detail. I'll try to pay more attention to the angles in the future.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Field Gatling gun. 58 cal. Page 88 cartridge no. 131 McKee and Mason " Civil War Projectiles ". Very interesting, congratulations, thanks for sharing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that the gatling cartridge was a rimfire.....

 

[Critical Recovery]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that the gatling cartridge was a rimfire.....

You are correct sir.

It first used a paper cartridge system, and then a .58 caliber copper cased rimfire projectile and later the .45-70 government.

(there were also smaller runs of different calibers for different applications.

http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/antitorpedoboatguns/Gatling/gatling1862.html

 

[Dug]

Admin Up!

You are correct sir.

It first used a paper cartridge system, and then a .58 caliber copper cased rimfire projectile and later the .45-70 government.

(there were also smaller runs of different calibers for different applications.

Gatling1862

Well that being the case, can an admin remove the solved banner for me? I was wondering what a limited use weapon would have been doing in an isolated area where the ctgs were found.

Back to the drawing board.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

It would help out a lot if you could straighten one of them out and get an accurate measurement of the diameter in inches with a caliper. I've had fairly good results by putting a steel rod in the shell and rolling it on the edge of a table....

 

[Dug]

What creates a double strike is the question

It would help out a lot if you could straighten one of them out and get an accurate measurement of the diameter in inches with a caliper. I've had fairly good results by putting a steel rod in the shell and rolling it on the edge of a table....

Not trying to sound argumentative, but kind of a moot point if it is .54 or .58 since no one has stepped forward to describe any weapon that leaves a double mark in the center of a primerless ctg. A gent in another forum has the same ctg except his has a single center mark and a .58 fits in his. No one has identified his shell casing either.

Could be an early shotgun shell, but I would have thought the shell to be much longer. A 20 gauge shell base is the same as my casing.

I need to hunt out an antigue firearms forum somewhere that might have someone who knows ctgs and firearms.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

well knowing the caliber gives a starting point to look at different guns, the more information you can put into a search the better chance you can get results.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

We need several well-focused closeup side-view photos of your six casings. They might be Benet primer casings, which resemble a rimfire casing because they lack a visible primer on the center of the casing's base -- but they are not rimfire.

For accurate measurement of a dented/bent casing's diameter, use a caliper to measure across it just slightly above the base-rim. Then roll the casing a bit, and re-measure. Do that again. Calculate the average of the three measurements.

 

[Dug]

We need several well-focused closeup side-view photos of your six casings. They might be Benet primer casings, which resemble a rimfire casing because they lack a visible primer on the center of the casing's base -- but they are not rimfire.

For accurate measurement of a dented/bent casing's diameter, use a caliper to measure across it just slightly above the base-rim. Then roll the casing a bit, and re-measure. Do that again. Calculate the average of the three measurements.

17mm 18mm 19mm averages to 18MM

 

[Dug]

We need several well-focused closeup side-view photos of your six casings. They might be Benet primer casings, which resemble a rimfire casing because they lack a visible primer on the center of the casing's base -- but they are not rimfire.

For accurate measurement of a dented/bent casing's diameter, use a caliper to measure across it just slightly above the base-rim. Then roll the casing a bit, and re-measure. Do that again. Calculate the average of the three measurements.

I have two of the casings but my partner has the other four. All were bent, because they were dug out of a timbered area. Once I get his I will take a group photo.

 

[tennessee]

The illustration, page 91, crtg no. 184 is from a field Gatling, says...always has two firing pin indentations. From McKee and Masons.....I did assume that if the long cartridge had two firing pin intentions, then the shorter one would also.

 

[oooldman]

Dug, To get better photos take it outside in direct sunlight. Change the camera setting to macro (which is usually a digital picture of a flower) and change setting to NO FLASH which will keep camera lens open a couple hundredths of a second longer take photo from about 10 - 12 inches away. you will be happier with the results.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Dug, thank you for the casing-diameter measurements. Using a calculator, 18mm equals .708-inch. Inside diameter would of course be a few hundredths smaller. A very unusual diameter for a metallic-cartridge bullet. Your casing's diameter excludes the .58 Gatling Gun as a possibility.

A request: When you make the sideview photos, please also make baseviews, so we can see if there's any difference between the firing-pin marks on the six casings.

Meanwhile, here's a sideview photo showing some Benet-Primer cartidges. Note that just above the casing's base-rim, there is a shallow indentation, one on each side of the casing. There is a small gap between their ends of the indentations, meaning they do not completely encircle the casing.

Benet-Primer casings have a tiny short projection at the center of the inside of the casing's bottom. Is that like yours, or is the inside of the bottom simply flat?

There is another type of slightly-post-civil-war casing primer which resembles a rimfire, but isn't. It is the Bar-Anvil primer. Go to the following webpage (a cartridge-collector Glossary), and scroll down for definition and illustrations of the Benet-Primer and Bar-Anvil primer. Does your casing have the bar across the bottom of its interior? A Cartridge Collector's Glossary - International Ammunition Association