✅ SOLVED What Kind of Native American Point Is This?

[The_Piratess]

I have found and collected arrowheads and points made by the Cherokee Indians near Murphy, North Carolina. Does anyone know what type this one is? It had been sheared along the left side where the bottom left point is shorter in the picture.



It always kind of reminded me of a martial arts star... Any I.D. or information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

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[AlabamaRelic]

Sex Stone.

 

[The_Piratess]

Really just a rock? It is sharper than than these two and most of my other points. It is also more finely worked on the two sides and had probably been on the third if the plow hadn't sheared it there.



These are also Cherokee found in the same tobacco field near Murphy, N.C.

 

[digger460]

First thing that came to mind. I don't think they had those tho.

 

[The_Piratess]

View attachment 1471759 First thing that came to mind. I don't think they had those tho.

The Native Americans known as the mound builders in Arkansas had these.

 

[1320]

Native American artifacts aren't given tribal names like "Cherokee". I've attached a link for named artifacts in North Carolina. I bet you can ID those Murphy knives rather quickly!
North Carolina Projectile Points

 

[Tony in SC]

The point on the left could be a savannah river. The one on the right looks like an atal point, which could predate the Cherokee. Have you looked over on the North American Indian Artifact Forum? A lot of good stuff comes from your area. We found points in the Valley river last year.

 

[DownNDirty]

The point on the right looks like a Guilford; that's a Middle Archaic point that would be 5,000 to 7,000 years old. Long before the Cherokee tribe existed.

 

[Plug N Play]

Just a side note.
I think the pics were deceiving folks a bit. If it were laying flat, and not pictured at an obtuse angle, I believe it would appear as being two sided with a flat break across the bottom

If that is a flat break across the bottom, it's appearing as a "third face" in the pics.
Arrowheads, dart points, knives, spear points are usually referred to as "biface" ... that is they have TWO faces.

When they break, they will generally have a flat, smooth surface across the break.
I think this is what you are seeing, in person, but it's not coming through in the pics. (now seeing only a single pic, after the edit)

A common complaint I have , sorry, but it needs to be said.
When someone only shows a single side and wants help ... especially when they show multiple pictures of only one side ... I cringe, inside.

Biface ... two sides ... need pics of both sides.
It's like showing multiple pics of a horse's belly and never showing the top side, and asking what kind of horse is this.
TWO SIDES on a biface.

That said, this does have the classic appearance of a bifacial quartz point that has been broken.
If found in a cluster of other artifacts, then it probably is.

The problem with quartz points from this region is the chip-scars do not show up well, ... very hard to see in pictures and requires close scrutiny in person. Much easier with flint, for example.
If you can examine the outer edges of this biface, and see tiny chip scars, (they should be there if this is a chipped artifact) that would be conclusive.

Another important trait to look for ... Bifaces will most often have a central ridge (not always, some are quite flat) running down the middle of each face. This gives the "break" a diamond shape, in cross section.
This shows a prominent central ridge running down the side that is pictured, but the cross section is not diamond shaped.
So, the immediate observation is "the answer may lie on the other side". And we can't see it.

Is there a central ridge on the other side ?

All that said, there is an additional problem ... you only have the tip.
Bifacial points were made in your area for some 14,000 years.

No one can tell you the length of this point, no one can tell you what the base of this point looked like.
It's far easier to classify a point if you find the broken base ... generally impossible by looking at a tip.

All this long winded stuff, ... sorry.
I do think this has the general appearance of an artifact tip ... but would never attempt to classify it because I know how hard it is to do from a pic, ... especially if we are dealing with quartz, not seeing a base, and only see one side.

If this shows minor chip scars upon close examination, the best you can deduce is that it is a tip of something.
There is also a big possibility it was broken during manufacturing a biface, is simply the discarded piece, and never was used as a tool.

I apologize for the long answer. (I've been making hundreds of points a year for 25 years and teach classes on this subject.)

 

[The_Piratess]

Native American artifacts aren't given tribal names like "Cherokee". I've attached a link for named artifacts in North Carolina. I bet you can ID those Murphy knives rather quickly!
North Carolina Projectile Points

Thank you for that link 1320! It was very helpful. I like hunting arrowheads and I'm park Cherokee so I guess I had a tendency in my ethnocentricity towards my tribe to attribute all of them to the Cherokee. I have quite a few of them and most are really old then.

 

[The_Piratess]

The point on the left could be a savannah river. The one on the right looks like an atal point, which could predate the Cherokee. Have you looked over on the North American Indian Artifact Forum? A lot of good stuff comes from your area. We found points in the Valley river last year.

Thanks Tony in SC. I don't live there but my mother was raised there and that's where her side of the family is mostly from. I visit there often. I have found most of my points in a small tobacco field that is next to the tiny church where many of my family members are buried including my great grandfather who was half Cherokee. My great, great grandfather was a missionary to the Eastern Band of the Cherokee and he fell in love with a Cherokee Indian and married her. I like hunting arrowheads, but really don't know much about them. I want to learn more and starting hunting in other areas too now. I will be checking out the North American Indian Artifact part of the Forum.

 

[The_Piratess]

Thank you Plug N Play for all of the great info. Sorry for not having posted better pics and I will keep that in mind. I have closely examined it and I do think that you are right on all counts. Since I don't live where I found it and it's been several years since I found it, I will never be able to find the base. Since you make points, do you have any idea what those star shaped items are or were used for in this display from Arkansas? We've always been intrigued by and wondered about those... Thanks!

 

[Icewing]

You should get in touch with the Museum of Native American History in Bentonville, AR
They have quite a few pieces of that 'eccentric flint'.

 

[Plug N Play]

[QUOTE=The_Piratess;5465785Since you make points, do you have any idea what those star shaped items are or were used for in this display from Arkansas? We've always been intrigued by and wondered about those... Thanks!

I'm sorry, Piratess, I blew the pics up and they lose all clarity. Can't see enough to make out anything helpful.

If there is no direct provenance concerning that frame, the approach would be to study them as a whole, and look for anything out of place.
If any points show signs of modern replication, then one could assume the five discs were modern made.

What concerns me is that it is a style that I've never come across, yet there are 5 matching ones.
Collectors would put beautiful frames together, such as this, and want center pieces. Very often, these turn out to be eccentrics of questionable provenance. A modern knapper can easily make those discs, and eccentrics of this sort were often included in frames of original points, usually in the shape of turtles, lizards, or thunderbirds, among others.

Multiple notched pieces were a common method for knappers to learn how to notch.
The ancient ones were most often very random looking pieces, which modern folks would interpret as some sort of animal.
I made several random pieces with many random notches, when I first started learning, and I encourage students to do so when they get to the point of making notches.
It's a struggle for new knappers to learn notching, and we would go through the struggle of making a point, then trying to not only make one notch, but have to make two matching notches to complete the point.
Well, you can imagine the disappointment when one barb would snap off. Now you have to snap of the other one as well.
Lots of stemmed points were intended to be notched points, but one side snapped in the process, and it's a running joke in the hobby when confessing that your average looking stemmed point was close to being a beautiful notched point when it broke on you.

Andice, Bell, and Calf Creek points are a perfect example of this. They required two long, matching notches. Old times and new times, they often ended up as a long stemmed point, because the wing snapped off one side, and the only option was to snap the other wing off also, leaving one with a stemmed base.
It's easier to simply practice lots of notches randomly, on a single scrap piece, not worrying if they broke or not.

Because this frame shows five matching forms of an odd form to begin with, I'd lean towards someone requesting a knapper to make centerpieces to balance out a nice frame of points.
In N.Carolina, the possible varieties of stone would have been pretty limited.
In Arkansas, the variety was far greater, hence we don't see crude quartz points included in this frame.

Boy, here I am getting long winded again !
There is another possibility here.
Some mounds might contain a form that is specific to only that mound or a few associated mounds.
Imagine a leader directing the mound and items cached in it.
They might ask that something specific be made by the knappers.
This might be jewelry or regalia type items ... thus you'd see odd pieces that were meant for an item not normally made anywhere else.

Cahokia Mounds had great numbers, (I want to say hundreds, maybe a thousand, I forget) of extremely well made Cahokia points.
Never used, multiple knappers of old contributing, and all cached away in the mounds. Something of this nature suggests a directive coming from above, to create specific designs, not for a tool, but for other reasons ... ceremonial, burial goods, wealth display, regalia ... who knows ?

It's possible these five discs were made for a single specific purpose along those lines.

I'll just leave this, that, they have the appearance of being modern eccentrics being made to balance out the beauty of the arrangement of the points in the frame.
By modern, I mean, this was somewhat common among early collectors to throw in later made items along with the old ones, and not think much of it.

I've never seen that form, of old, and a quick google search isn't turning up anything of old, ... so it concerns me that 5 matching ones suddenly turn up in a single frame, all made of the same stone, the same size, and the same knapping style.

Again, I apologize for the long answer. We knappers and archeologists will discuss things of this nature extensively, and still not come to any conclusions.

If you'd like a hint at "what in tarnation is he talking about ? " ...try - google images " TUSSINGER".
A long story of deception and intrigue, right there, alone.

I'm sorry I can't be of help here. I really don't have an answer to give you, other than offering possibilities.

 

[justinberry]

These are from Arkansas (Crowley's Ridge), those are rhinestones.

 

[The_Piratess]

View attachment 1472252View attachment 1472251View attachment 1472250
These are from Arkansas (Crowley's Ridge), those are rhinestones.