What is your opinion on this converted U.S. to C.S. buckle

HutSiteDigger

Silver Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
2,849
Reaction score
1,283
Golden Thread
0
Location
Stafford,Virginia
Detector(s) used
Fisher 1266x and a shovel
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting

Attachments

  • cs.webp
    cs.webp
    391.7 KB · Views: 181
  • cs1.webp
    cs1.webp
    266.7 KB · Views: 148
Last edited:
As an eBay Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
Buying that buckle would bother me. It certainly looks old, but why is the patina scraped away like it is?
I remember several years ago, there were a number of US buckles for sale on ebay, that had bullets stuck in them.
There were just too many of those, and it seemed to me they had to be counterfeit. Doing business on ebay, buyer beware.
 

Upvote 0
Here is one listed in "Plates and Buckles of the American Military 1795-1874 by Sydney C Kerksis

The one in the photo would have been photographed in the 1970s since this book was published in 1979. I am certain (the one in the book) is legit, it was owned by Dennis Cox's father Ernest... (well known civil war dealer and metal detector in the Fredericksburg/Stafford area)
 

Attachments

  • P9040587.webp
    P9040587.webp
    439.6 KB · Views: 126
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Here is one listed in "Plates and Buckles of the American Military 1795-1874 by Sydney C Kerksis

The one in the photo would have been photographed in the 1970s since this book was published in 1979. I am certain (the one in the book) is legit, it was owned by Dennis Cox's father Ernest... (well known civil war dealer and metal detector in the Fredericksburg/Stafford area)
.likely where the counterfeiter got the idea.....I wouldnt touch that(one in question) with a ten foot pole!!!
 

Upvote 0
I am always suspicious of a plate that is missing all of its hooks.
 

Upvote 0
I personally wouldn't give him A dime for a dozen of those, It's a fake..............IMHO
 

Upvote 0
about 1 mile from Lookout Mountain in Northern Alabama was the location he said of the find. Thing is there was a ton of Confederate and Union movement in that area. He must have known his history though. The patina and acidity is about right for the soil and on that Brass. Being that it is eaten away ! lol $1000.00 bucks. I looked that place is full of buckles.
 

Last edited:
Upvote 0
The item is a screaming total modern fake.

First, the lettering style of the US is consistent with the shape of modern reproduction oval US buckles, of rolled stamped brass with solder fill. Secondly, a primary feature to watch on the reproduction oval US buckles, is the shape of the two arrowhead hooks, and long clip hook. These reproduction hooks have never been an exact match for original hooks. Over the years, fakers have learned that removing tell-tale features such as the buckle hooks, can fool some people.

Having dug a few US buckles over the years, as well as seeing countless more, I cannot recall seeing any legitimate ones with ALL the hooks missing (usually the original buckles are lost or discarded as soon as one hook breaks, or they try a field repair, etc.). Next, take a look at the solder around the missing hooks on this spurious example, and notice how the solder filling is broken away completely encircling where each hook was coming out, and all three places are exactly the same. This is due to each of the brass hooks being bent and twisted repeatedly back and forth, until breakage was achieved (like they were gripped with pliers, being bent back and forth). Compare this with a legitimate broken hook on a known original US buckle, and we may note that actual wear and stress in 19th Century field use, would not create precisely the same such breakage with encircling solder loss on a single hook, much less contribute such impossible odds as having all three missing in the same fashion. Additionally, the consistency of solder filling on original US buckles dug in recent years, from most soil conditions, will generally exhibit a more overall brittle appearance with cracks and flaking of material.

Furthermore, the alteration of the letter U is very odd and sloppy, as there appears to be white lead or solder around the flattened areas. The pitting on the face of the buckle is inconsistent with what we might normally see with original excavated buckles even from harsh ground conditions. More likely this pitting is caused by something like an acid that was used to artificially age the piece.

With all relics, including original excavated examples, there are certainly exceptions to the known rules. However, when assessing a piece for legitimacy, the many repeated points that break these rules, throw out so many red flags, that soon we may be sure the item is deep in bogus territory!!!


CC Hunter
 

Last edited:
Upvote 0
The way the hooks are attached makes it highly unlikely all three would break without pulling out the bar they are all attached to. I have one US plate with just one hook missing, but never all three. Being from Chattanooga I can attest there was a lot of troop movement in the area.
 

Upvote 0
EXCELLENT reply by CC Hunter. :)

Also, Duggap's reply is particularly noteworthy. Soldiers would throw away a buckle when one of its attachment-hooks broke off. Very important question: Why would a soldier put the needed amount of labor into breaking off all three hooks? (Which, by the way, were thick brass, not thin sheetbrass, and thus didn't break off easily.)

As some of you already know, I've served the civil war relic-collecting community as an Educator against misidentification (and fraud) for several decades, learning about the "tricks" used by fakers to make Reproduction relics like like genuine civil war relics. I must mention that the number-one trick (besides using acidic chemicals to artificially age the relic) used by buckle fakers is to remove the Reproduction attachment-hooks, which are an obvious clue that the buckle is a Repro.

To people who know about that faking-trick, the absence of attachment-hooks on the buckle HutSiteDigger is asking about is a brightly-glowing red flag sayng "Beware!"

Still,as CC Hunter mentioned, despite all the Negative clues, there is a slight possibility that this buckle is a genuine 150-year-old one. But the only way to be sure would be to have it X-rayed, to see if the internal part of the attachment-hooks structure is the 150-year-old form or the Reproduction form. You'd have to use an Industrial X-ray machine, because a doctor/dentist's X-ray machine is not powerful enough to penetrate the buckle's lead-solder filler metal. Industrial-Strength X-raying is expensive, so you'd have to add that cost onto whatever you're willing to pay for this hookless buckle. If you're a collector who has that much money to gamble on this very suspicious acid-eaten buckle, go for it. If not, don't.
 

Last edited:
Upvote 0
Sad part is,some poor sap will buy this p.o.s.
 

Upvote 0
This buckle has circulated around the "Relic Collector" community for more than 30 years. About 50% of those who have examined it say it's fake (including a good friend of mine from Savannah), and about half say real. Toss a coin. Personally, I just don't trust the piece.
 

Upvote 0

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom