🔎 UNIDENTIFIED What is the difference between a crotal bell and a sleigh bell??

[DownEast_Detecting]

I just need some clarification on these terms from the experts. What makes one a crotal and one a sleigh bell? Shank style, size, construction method, material?
I have also seen the term rambler bells.

From another Tnet thread:
xxxx said:
“Small bells were used on straps that went around a horse as part of the harness. They jingled as the horse moved, alerting people along the way. They also sounded nice. They are part of horse tack today.”
Yes, xxxx i always thought those were called sleigh bells because they were smaller and the way they were attached. I thought crotal bells were always only a single bell hung around the neck of an animal. As opposed to sleigh bells which are usually smaller and strung close together on a leather strap or harness?"

xxxxxx said: "Crotal" apparently refers to the sound these bells make. I just looked it up. I always thought it referred to their shape. So the name could probably be applied to many bells. They have been used for hundreds of years.

So now I’m a little confused. What are #1,#2,#3 called and most importantly why?
thanks

 

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[Tedyoh]

#1 and #3 are Crotal bells.....#2 is a sleigh bell... sleigh bell attachments were riveted / pressed into the leather....crotal bells usually tied to the animal, I've dug them with string still in the attachment. Crotal bells have been around much longer as well.....sleigh bells only late 1880's? Sleigh bell metal is also a lesser quality alloy in my opinion.
Google search has a ton of info on Crotal Bells

 

[sibbley]

https://classicbells.com has great info on crotals and sleigh bells.

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

#1 and #3 are Crotal bells.....#2 is a sleigh bell... sleigh bell attachments were riveted / pressed into the leather....crotal bells usually tied to the animal, I've dug them with string still in the attachment. Crotal bells have been around much longer as well...

ok yes that’s where I was at when I started this thread. But after reading the link below
It’s a little different. They are all sleigh bells.

https://classicbells.com has great info on crotals and sleigh bells.

That’s a great link thank you

So according to that website all crotal bells are sleigh bells. Crotal is a sub category
of sleigh bells.
Crotal bells

Like my#2 is actually a globe bell which is a Sleigh bell.
Globe bells

So why aren’t my #1 and #3 called petal bells? Another category of sleigh bells? Did crotals have pedal designs sometimes as well?
Pedal bells

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

So my #1 and #3 are petal bells? And my #2 is a globe bell? And they are all sleigh bells. Right ? This is correct?
Just trying to call things by the correct terms.

 

[sibbley]

So my #1 and #3 are petal bells? And my #2 is a globe bell? And they are all sleigh bells. Right ? This is correct?
Just trying to call things by the correct terms.

Yes, they're all "sleigh" or "crotal" bells. The bells with the petal design are called "petal" bells as a description. Like your #2 could be called an "acorn" bell.

 

[CRUSADER]

So my #1 and #3 are petal bells? And my #2 is a globe bell? And they are all sleigh bells. Right ? This is correct?
Just trying to call things by the correct terms.

Nope, they are one or the other.

'Rumbler Bells' are a sub-set/alternative name of Crotal Bells & can be interchanged.

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

Yes, they're all "sleigh" or "crotal" bells. The bells with the petal design are called "petal" bells as a description. Like your #2 could be called an "acorn" bell.

that's not what im getting from this website 👉sleigh bell designs They make it sound like everything is a sleigh bell. then they get broken into sub categories. (Crotal,globe, petal, etc..) Is the website wrong? Also my #2 could not be called an acorn its a globe bell. Again from that website. That's pretty much my exact #2 bell i circled in green below. Just trying to get my facts straight here.

Nope, they are one or the other.

'Rumbler Bells' are a sub-set/alternative name of Crotal Bells & can be interchanged.

Im sorry im really just trying to get this nailed down as there seems to be so much confusion. I would just like to call artifacts by their correct name. So this website is wrong?👉sleigh bell designs which makes it sound like they are all sleigh bells. then there are sub categories like crotal,petal,globe, etc... an excerpt below from the crotal section which is in sleigh bell designs.

"Crotals are known by many other names, including pellet bells, rumblers, sleigh bells, horse bells, hawk bells, and jingle bells. The terms "sleigh bell" and "horse bell" include but are not limited to crotals. They refer to any open bell, chime, or crotal that would traditionally be fastened to a horse or other equine or to any horse-drawn vehicle, including a sleigh"
The material quoted above comes from Classic Bells at https://classicbells.com

 

[CRUSADER]

that's not what im getting from this website 👉sleigh bell designs They make it sound like everything is a sleigh bell. then they get broken into sub categories. (Crotal,globe, petal, etc..) Is the website wrong? Also my #2 could not be called an acorn its a globe bell. Again from that website. That's pretty much my exact #2 bell i circled in green below. Just trying to get my facts straight here.
View attachment 2101572

Im sorry im really just trying to get this nailed down as there seems to be so much confusion. I would just like to call artifacts by their correct name. So this website is wrong?👉sleigh bell designs which makes it sound like they are all sleigh bells. then there are sub categories like crotal,petal,globe, etc... an excerpt below from the crotal section which is in sleigh bell designs.

"Crotals are known by many other names, including pellet bells, rumblers, sleigh bells, horse bells, hawk bells, and jingle bells. The terms "sleigh bell" and "horse bell" include but are not limited to crotals. They refer to any open bell, chime, or crotal that would traditionally be fastened to a horse or other equine or to any horse-drawn vehicle, including a sleigh"
The material quoted above comes from Classic Bells at https://classicbells.com

Not really bothered what some sites say, that would be like listening to ebay descriptions.

The British Museum PAS categorise them as;

Bells

A bell is a hollow object, which can be spherical, conical or of various domed shapes. It can be sounded by an internal clapper, an external hammer or (for spherical bells) an internal pellet or pe…

finds.org.uk

''Cast spherical bells''​

That would be the only true description that covers all these types of bell.
The PAS doesn't discuss 'Sleigh Bells' as they are not a UK find, but if they did they would be Recorded as 'Bell'. So you could use that type to describe them all, but they would than have a sub-set (or further description) under 'Bell' for 'Crotal' & for 'Sleigh' (because they have different functions like a 'Hawking Bell'), they would NOT have Sleigh as a sub-set of Crotal under Bell. Get it?

People/www/books have caused the confusion, you just need a simple cataloguing system to sub-divide them.

 

[pepperj]

Not really bothered what some sites say, that would be like listening to ebay descriptions.

The British Museum PAS categorise them as;

Bells

A bell is a hollow object, which can be spherical, conical or of various domed shapes. It can be sounded by an internal clapper, an external hammer or (for spherical bells) an internal pellet or pe…

finds.org.uk

''Cast spherical bells''​

That would be the only true description that covers all these types of bell.
The PAS doesn't discuss 'Sleigh Bells' as they are not a UK find, but if they did they would be Recorded as 'Bell'. So you could use that type to describe them all, but they would than have a sub-set (or further description) under 'Bell' for 'Crotal' & for 'Sleigh' (because they have different functions like a 'Hawking Bell'), they would NOT have Sleigh as a sub-set of Crotal under Bell. Get it?

People/www/books have caused the confusion, you just need a simple cataloguing system to sub-divide them.

The other link in the one you provided is a good read for many that are looking for makers and the timeline of when the bell was casted. I would highly recommend the OP to read the information as it will add to the knowledge base.

Crotal bells - ukdfd

Crotal bells, Crotal, rumbler, rumbler bell, animal bells, sheep bell

www.ukdfd.co.uk

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

Not really bothered what some sites say, that would be like listening to ebay descriptions.

The British Museum PAS categorise them as;

Bells

A bell is a hollow object, which can be spherical, conical or of various domed shapes. It can be sounded by an internal clapper, an external hammer or (for spherical bells) an internal pellet or pe…

finds.org.uk

''Cast spherical bells''​

That would be the only true description that covers all these types of bell.
The PAS doesn't discuss 'Sleigh Bells' as they are not a UK find, but if they did they would be Recorded as 'Bell'. So you could use that type to describe them all, but they would than have a sub-set (or further description) under 'Bell' for 'Crotal' & for 'Sleigh' (because they have different functions like a 'Hawking Bell'), they would NOT have Sleigh as a sub-set of Crotal under Bell. Get it?

People/www/books have caused the confusion, you just need a simple cataloguing system to sub-divide them.

Ok I think that clears it up. From the the website you linked.
“CROTAL is only used for a very rare Bronze Age artifact”
So us yanks over here, probably have never even seen a real “crotal bell or will never find one. I guess I’m just gonna start calling them bells.

 

[CRUSADER]

Ok I think that clears it up. From the the website you linked.
“CROTAL is only used for a very rare Bronze Age artifact”
So us yanks over here, probably have never even seen a real “crotal bell or will never find one. I guess I’m just gonna start calling them bells.

Not sure which bit you were reading to get that confused.
Of course the US can find Crotal Bells/Rumblers they date from;
''Post-medieval cast spherical bells are often known as ‘crotal’ bells''
16th C - mid 19th C.

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

im sorry Crusader i was just reading the website you linked. I read the whole thing and started at the top. Where it says: "Always use BELL. The PAS database avoids ANIMAL BELL because in most cases we are unsure about the function of any particular bell. CROTAL is only used for a very rare Bronze Age object." .....so that right there had me scratching my head. Then under its "Medieval and post-medieval bells" section is Crotal. I thought the post-medieval times where right at the end of medieval times ending in 1400. I didnt realize they extend all the way to the 1800's. But either way its conflicting info on the same page. But anyway..

so you are saying my #1 & #3 are Crotal bells and not petal bells(petal may be a subset or describer of Crotal but crotal always come first?). And #2 is the only sleigh bell? because of the way it attached? The shank? Why?
Im not pulling your leg or a troll. I genuinely want to know how to classify these things in the future. And there is so much conflicting information on here and on the web.

 

[pepperj]

im sorry Crusader i was just reading the website you linked. I read the whole thing and started at the top. Where it says: "Always use BELL. The PAS database avoids ANIMAL BELL because in most cases we are unsure about the function of any particular bell. CROTAL is only used for a very rare Bronze Age object." .....so that right there had me scratching my head. Then under its "Medieval and post-medieval bells" section is Crotal. I thought the post-medieval times where right at the end of medieval times ending in 1400. I didnt realize they extend all the way to the 1800's. But either way its conflicting info on the same page. But anyway..

so you are saying my #1 & #3 are Crotal bells and not petal bells(petal may be a subset or describer of Crotal but crotal always come first?). And #2 is the only sleigh bell? because of the way it attached? The shank? Why?
Im not pulling your leg or a troll. I genuinely want to know how to classify these things in the future. And there is so much conflicting information on here and on the web.

Just like I stated for a ID on the crotal and the jingle bell, when you first posted them up.
Crotal bells in the link I provided (post#10) the site has a list of makers and when they were made.
From digging crotal bells from the 16th-20th century not much changed.
Bronze, Brass, Tombac alloys were used at different times.
If anything you probably now know more about the topic than a lot of folks.

 

[Red-Coat]

I feel this is a case where what have come to be “accepted” terms for various bell types don’t necessarily respect the etymology of the words nor the names by which such items were originally called at the time they were made. There are lots of similar instances where our compulsion to conveniently group items into neat categories rides roughshod over subtle differences in origin, construction, and usage.

The word “crotal” comes to us from the ancient Greek “krotein” (meaning “to clap”) and a percussion instrument resembling a pair of castanets known as a krotalon/crotalon (usually expressed as the plural “krotala/crotala”). The subsequent Latin derivative used by ancient Romans was “crotalum” describing various similar rattle-like instruments. In “modern English” parlance, the first known use of the word “crotala” (as a plural) was in 1683.

The first known use of the word “crotal” to describe a small, hollow, perforated spherical bell enclosing a loose pellet that causes the bell to jingle when shaken was in 1790, although such bells of course existed long before that but weren’t called “crotals”. Various other terms were in use, including “cascabel” from the Spanish meaning “small bell” and “rumbler bell”.

The term “sleigh bell”, referring to any of various bells commonly attached to a sleigh or to the harness of a horse drawing a sleigh has a first known usage of 1772 and includes hemispherical bells with an attached clapper as well as crotal-types. The term “pellet bell” for crotal-types has a first known usage of 1907.


For what it’s worth, Wiki has this to say:

Crotal bells (Greek 'crotalon' – castanet or rattle) are various types of small bells or rattles. They were produced in various pre-Columbian cultures. In Europe they were probably made from before the early Middle Ages; though many founders cast bells of this type, the Robert Wells bell foundry of Aldbourne, Wiltshire, produced the largest range. The first medieval designs came in two separate halves into which a metal pea was introduced and the two halves were then soldered or crimped together. Somewhere around 1400 they were cast in a single piece with a ball of metal inside.

Crotal bells, also known as rumble bells, were used on horse-drawn vehicles before motor vehicles were common. They were often made of bronze with a slot cut down the side. These bells were used to warn other users of horse-drawn vehicles (mostly on country roads) that another vehicle was approaching. On smaller vehicles, they were hung on a small leather-and-iron harness bracket above the horse's collar; on larger vehicles, such as delivery wagons, they were driven into the wooden frame of the wagon.

Bronze Age crotals

A different form of crotal is found in Prehistoric Ireland. The National Museum of Ireland and the British Museum have several examples on display dating from the late Bronze Age which were found in the Dowris Hoard, alongside various brass wind instruments. These are bronze cylinders in the rough shape of a teardrop, with a piece of baked clay or a pebble inside. It is presumed that they functioned as a type of rattle. The hoard had 48 of them in total, in two sizes. Only two other examples are known, both Irish.

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

First off anybody who commented on this thread... Thank you for taking the time to try and explain to this curious guy, what make a Crotal bell, well Crotal.

Just like I stated for a ID on the crotal and the jingle bell, when you first posted them up.
Crotal bells in the link I provided (post#10) the site has a list of makers and when they were made.
From digging crotal bells from the 16th-20th century not much changed.
Bronze, Brass, Tombac alloys were used at different times.
If anything you probably now know more about the topic than a lot of folks.

Yes thanks for that. I have seen it before. When i dig one with a known makers mark i will be sure to reference it. But that site (the one you linked) also talks about different metals used in the manufacturing process to date earlier Crotal bells
"Many of the earlier bells were cast in alloys that have a distinctly white or grey appearance. The metal is white and consistent across the section. The most likely interpretation is that it is a high-tin copper alloy, possibly with a small addition of lead to facilitate casting. For the present purposes, the point to note is that bells cast in this white metal are unlikely to post-date the 17th century.
of course my #3 is not that old, from the shank style, (without drilled hole). Im thinking 19th century from the site where it was found. But just wanted you to know since you said "From digging crotal bells from the 16th-20th century not much changed. Bronze, Brass, Tombac alloys were used at different times.
I am confident know i probably do know more than most. Especially after reading so many inaccurate Tnet Crotal bell posts. There is a lot of misunderstood information. So this thread succeeded in my mind. I hope others read it.

I feel this is a case where what have come to be “accepted” terms for various bell types don’t necessarily respect the etymology of the words nor the names by which such items were originally called at the time they were made. There are lots of similar instances where our compulsion to conveniently group items into neat categories rides roughshod over subtle differences in origin, construction, and usage.

The word “crotal” comes to us from the ancient Greek “krotein” (meaning “to clap”) and a percussion instrument resembling a pair of castanets known as a krotalon/crotalon (usually expressed as the plural “krotala/crotala”). The subsequent Latin derivative used by ancient Romans was “crotalum” describing various similar rattle-like instruments. In “modern English” parlance, the first known use of the word “crotala” (as a plural) was in 1683.

The first known use of the word “crotal” to describe a small, hollow, perforated spherical bell enclosing a loose pellet that causes the bell to jingle when shaken was in 1790, although such bells of course existed long before that but weren’t called “crotals”. Various other terms were in use, including “cascabel” from the Spanish meaning “small bell” and “rumbler bell”.

The term “sleigh bell”, referring to any of various bells commonly attached to a sleigh or to the harness of a horse drawing a sleigh has a first known usage of 1772 and includes hemispherical bells with an attached clapper as well as crotal-types. The term “pellet bell” for crotal-types has a first known usage of 1907.


For what it’s worth, Wiki has this to say:

Crotal bells (Greek 'crotalon' – castanet or rattle) are various types of small bells or rattles. They were produced in various pre-Columbian cultures. In Europe they were probably made from before the early Middle Ages; though many founders cast bells of this type, the Robert Wells bell foundry of Aldbourne, Wiltshire, produced the largest range. The first medieval designs came in two separate halves into which a metal pea was introduced and the two halves were then soldered or crimped together. Somewhere around 1400 they were cast in a single piece with a ball of metal inside.

Crotal bells, also known as rumble bells, were used on horse-drawn vehicles before motor vehicles were common. They were often made of bronze with a slot cut down the side. These bells were used to warn other users of horse-drawn vehicles (mostly on country roads) that another vehicle was approaching. On smaller vehicles, they were hung on a small leather-and-iron harness bracket above the horse's collar; on larger vehicles, such as delivery wagons, they were driven into the wooden frame of the wagon.

Bronze Age crotals

A different form of crotal is found in Prehistoric Ireland. The National Museum of Ireland and the British Museum have several examples on display dating from the late Bronze Age which were found in the Dowris Hoard, alongside various brass wind instruments. These are bronze cylinders in the rough shape of a teardrop, with a piece of baked clay or a pebble inside. It is presumed that they functioned as a type of rattle. The hoard had 48 of them in total, in two sizes. Only two other examples are known, both Irish.

Thank you so much RedCoat!
So pretty much people assigned the name Crotal to a type of bell in the middle of its usage period. Which has its own problems. And crotal bells were certainly used as "sleigh bells". I guess this is where i might of been getting hung up. From the stuff i read on Tnet. I thought a crotal was only a bell that was hung around the neck of an animal singularly. And sleigh bells were only the type where there were multiple bells strung together that hung on a sleigh or horse harness.
So really a crotal bell is any bell that doesnt have an attached clapper, it has a loose pellet. And has a suspension loop (or shank as i have been calling it incorrectly above) not a rivet attachment. See photo below.... right? 🤞🤞🤞 or is everything just mixed around so much now there is no definitive answer? 😌

There is so much conflicting info out there. And not just on Tnet. The 3 websites that are linked here all say the holes on top of crotals were for different things.

#1 From ukdfd.co.uk: These are, in fact, primarily to facilitate positioning of the core, rather than for transmission of the sound
#2 From classicbells.com: These holes are often incorrectly called "sound holes", but the holes are really required to manufacture the bells, not for the bells to produce sound
#3 From finds.org.uk: ....the number and shape of the sound holes

well actually i guess after re reading those quotes, maybe site numbers 1 & 2 could possibly be taking about the same thing. Not sure if #1 is talking about the core as in the suspension loop half they need to center during manufacturing. ( when they were cast in 2 pieces) or what.