✅ SOLVED What is it...better pics + size

[garycobb]

What is it...better pics + size is 3.25x 2.25. Dug in area of Raft River near Mobile.

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

Thank you for the better photos, and especially for the precise size-measurements.

Your find is the correct size, shape, and contruction to be what we civil war relic-hunters call a "clipped corner" Militia plate. Specifically, because yours has just two solder-spots, oriented horizontally on the plate's back, it would most probably be a shoulder-belt/breastplate. The two solder-spots anchored either a long pin-clasp or two loops. This type dates from the Colonial era through the civil war era. It was used by various Militias, rather than being limited to just one particular state or city. Some had an engraved emblem/letters/numbers, others had an "applied" emblem, and others were blank.

Examples of the basic style of your "clipped corner" Militia shoulder-belt plate are shown in the book "American Military Belt Plates." In it, see:
plate #51, Massachusetts Militia (page 43)
plate #60, New York Militia (page 49)
plate #731, Boston Light Artillery (page 438)
plate #732, Rhode Island Militia (page 438)
plate 439, New York Light Guard (page 439).

 

[garycobb]

Thanks man I appreciate you nailing it down for me.

Gary

 

[nhbenz]

CannonballGuy, is it feasible on these plates to figure out what applied emblem might have been on such an item based on the location of the additional attachment "wires" which seemed to have existed? Not that they're exactly clear on this one, but in general, is it something that could be done? Thanks, well done, as we've come to expect.

 

[Breezie]

Thank you for the better photos, and especially for the precise size-measurements.

Your find is the correct size, shape, and contruction to be what we civil war relic-hunters call a "clipped corner" Militia plate. Specifically, because yours has just two solder-spots, oriented horizontally on the plate's back, it would most probably be a shoulder-belt/breastplate. The two solder-spots anchored either a long pin-clasp or two loops. This type dates from the Colonial era through the civil war era. It was used by various Militias, rather than being limited to just one particular state or city. Some had an engraved emblem/letters/numbers, others had an "applied" emblem, and others were blank.

Examples of the basic style of your "clipped corner" Militia shoulder-belt plate are shown in the book "American Military Belt Plates." In it, see:
plate #51, Massachusetts Militia (page 43)
plate #60, New York Militia (page 49)
plate #731, Boston Light Artillery (page 438)
plate #732, Rhode Island Militia (page 438)
plate 439, New York Light Guard (page 439).

TheCannonballGuy, Have you seen these where the corners were not clipped, which were used predominately by the South? Thanks, Breezie

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Nhbenz, sadly the answer is generally no. The few exceptions are when you can EXACTLY match the size, location, and shape of the attachment-holes to a plate that is pictured front-&-back in a book. And even then, some of the clip-corner plates were what is known as a "stock" plate ...meaning, the manufacturer made a large quantity of blank ones, and would attach whatever emblem the customer wanted.

Breezie, the corners are "clipped" (or sometimes, neatly rounded-off) for an important functional reason. They HAD to be clipped/rounded to prevent the plate from snagging on or slicing various things during use. Sharply square-angle corners on these relatively thin sheetmetal plates would be dangerous.

That being said... the book "Confederate Belt Buckles & Plates" by Steve E. Mullinax does show a single "sharp-square-corners" thin sheetbrass waistbelt plate (page 92). But note that the other square-cornered one shown on that page is thick-bodied and the square corners are beveled to reduce their sharpness.

So yes, there is nook-documentation that the Confederates (or as the book says, a local Militia unit) did have at least one version with sharp corners. But I must mention here that I've seen many 90-degree-cornered sheetmetal "plates" which aren't actually shoulder-belt or waistbelt plates. Some are from luggage-trunks, and some are photograph plates. They can be distinguished from Military plates by having no solder-spots where belt-hooks or loops were attached to the plate's back. Collectors need to make absolutely certain that a square-cornered "plate" isn't a non-military lookalike.

 

[Breezie]

TheCannonballGuy thank you for your explanation; I would appreciate your opinion on my plate. GaryCobb, my intentions are not to high-jack your post, but I feel having a composite of knowledge about these 'plates' in one post will be more beneficial, especially for those searching in the future.

Below is a pic of a plate I dug at a North Carolina battlefield with permission. In the same area (within 10 feet) I found CW bullets, buttons, and other CW items. It measures approximately 3 inches by 4 inches as can be seen by comparison with the Confederate note. The holes appear to have been 'field made' at a different time than the plate. These holes do not look machine made since they are irregular. It's hard to see solder marks on the back, but I can make out 2 areas where it looks to have had solder. It was found in an area that was very close to salt and estuary water, plus sand, which may help to explain the difficulty viewing the solder areas. What is your opinion on this 'plate?' I'm calling it a 'plate' for lack of a better name. Thanks so much, Breezie



Here is a site that shows a plate with 2 holes in it.
http://www.mytreasurespot.com/main/read.php?3,61931,62128

 

[skeeterd]

Breezie, what are the dementions of your plate and what do you think its made from? I don't know anything about it or CW plates at all, but you stated that the holes look to be field made and I'm interested in how a soldier could make these holes in his camp without many tools. Thanks.

 

[Breezie]

Breezie, what are the dementions of your plate and what do you think its made from? I don't know anything about it or CW plates at all, but you stated that the holes look to be field made and I'm interested in how a soldier could make these holes in his camp without many tools. Thanks.

Skeeterd, The dimensions are 3" x 4" and it is made of brass. I said I thought they were 'field made' because the whole are not uniform. I'm assuming they used some type of hand drill. Hopefully the CannonballGuy will give us his opinion. Breezie

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

As the mytreasurespot.com photos show, at least a few sheetbrass beltplates were converted for other use after their soldered-on attachment hooks broke off.

Breezie, about your plate:
You say it measure 3-inches by 4-inches. That size is significantly larger than the military belt-plates (which typically measure 2-to-2.25-inches high, and 3-to3.25-inches long). If your 3"-x-4" sheetbrass plate was manufactured for use on a belt, that would indicate it was a heckuva wide belt. Not impossible, of course, but it seems not very likely.

I wish your plate wasn't so heavily corroded & concreted, which causes uncertainty about whether it actually does have solder-spots or not.

The holes in your plate seem to be at least 1/4-inch wide, which strikes me as oddly large. If it was to be attached with small nails, or rivets, the holes wouldn't need to be that big ...unless it was going to be used in "very rough service" situations.

Sorry to be unable to be more helpful, but the above is all I caan think of for now.

 

[Breezie]

Thanks CannonballGuy for the attemp. Actually, the plate is somewhat smaller than the 3"x4" I took it out of the display case to photograph it, but didn't measure it at that time. My measurements were approximate through the glass, but still close. I am clueless on this plate, but do know the history of it's location, but that doesn't really mean a great deal since I've dug a 1950's lipstick tube within 4 inches (and the same depth) of a CW bullet! LOL Breezie

As the mytreasurespot.com photos show, at least a few sheetbrass beltplates were converted for other use after their soldered-on attachment hooks broke off.

Breezie, about your plate:
You say it measure 3-inches by 4-inches. That size is significantly larger than the military belt-plates (which typically measure 2-to-2.25-inches high, and 3-to3.25-inches long). If your 3"-x-4" sheetbrass plate was manufactured for use on a belt, that would indicate it was a heckuva wide belt. Not impossible, of course, but it seems not very likely.

I wish your plate wasn't so heavily corroded & concreted, which causes uncertainty about whether it actually does have solder-spots or not.

The holes in your plate seem to be at least 1/4-inch wide, which strikes me as oddly large. If it was to be attached with small nails, or rivets, the holes wouldn't need to be that big ...unless it was going to be used in "very rough service" situations.

Sorry to be unable to be more helpful, but the above is all I caan think of for now.