What do you guys use for moving big rocks and boulders? Making a "bouldering" kit

[SunshineMiner]

What do you guys use for moving big rocks and boulders? Making a "bouldering" kit

I'm looking into making a little "boulder" kit for those rocks that are too big to move by pry bar and hand. I'm also not very good at judging the size and weight of these rocks.. I saw a nice little formula somewhere online that was basically: L'xW'xH' x 170lbs = mass in lbs / 2000(for tons) Basically the rock/s im looking to move are about 6'x3.5'x1.5/2ft, basically right around 5-7Klbs. or 2.5-3.5 tons. But its also where they're positioned that makes a pry par ineffective in addition to not being in a safe spot, and the even worse tragedy of ending up in the hole im tying to clear in the first place Maybe im over estimating my rock because I havent measured it, but i also like to give a little bit of a safety margin so i try to overestimate. Especially moving heavy objects.

I will say one thing first. Cables freak me out. Not in an omg im going to run away.. But in a, I have a very healthy respect for what they are capable when things go wrong sort of way

That being said I'd PREFER to try and use chains(which i realize aren't that light, but most of my trips aren't more than a 1/4 mile from a car) because when they break, they kinda drop instead of the good ol cable whip. Having trouble finding a cheap come along or cable winch at the moment.

Straps - Most straps that have tighteners on them are rated at 2Klbs or under, and the 2Klbs ones are $$$. BUT i will be using these normal straps for anchors and reach:
for normal trees
Erickson 4 in. x 6 ft. Tree Saver/Tow Strap - Tractor Supply Co.
for those slightly nicer anchors/double wrapping/or extra reach
Traveller® Winch Strap with Shackle, 2-1/2 in. x 12 ft., 10,000 lb. Capacity - Tractor Supply Co.
and for wrapping rocks for now, 1-2 of these. i'm going to try and get some sort of liner(possibly used fire hose?) to put on the straps where it rubs the rock
Reese Towpower® Tow Strap with Loops - Tractor Supply Co.

Now to the cable part I dislike. Sometimes you just can't beat the prices for the budget builds but an 8Klb cable winch from HF... I extremely dislike being near the cable that im cranking on being the weakest link in the "chain." I don't have the luxury of being able to afford power winches, and i'm trying to keep it as portable as possible as well. But it does have some decent reviews as well for being pretty reliable and moving decent sized objects.
8000 Lb. Cable Winch Puller

I have thought about putting chain in there somewhere that is rated at saaaay 6,000lbs, 2K less than the winch. That way, if something breaks, its hopefully the chain.

My biggest problem is inexperience. I was able to take a Rescue Systems 1 class where we moved 10,000lb slabs of cement around on bars and things like that. But we never did any sort moving heavy objects with anything other than very heavy duty chains and chain come along systems that were built like a tank. So I dont have experience moving heavy rocks out of holes. I've watched a fair amount of videos and spent most of the night/and morning researching as much as I could but that doesn't cut it when I'm working under a rock that can potentially roll on me

Thats where you guys come in Learning from others experience can be VERY valuable

Whats the average size boulders/rocks you guys move? What do you guys use to move them and whats the rating on said equipment? Any recommendations and safety tips? What do you guys think about said posted equipment for this little "boulder" kit?

Thanks!

Sunshine

 

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[SunshineMiner]

Oi. I forgot to mention pullies and snatch blocks! Just in case i need a change of direction, but again.. that means im dealing with cable... I guess the other question should be what size/rating cable do you guys use :P

 

[minedog]

Hi, I don't have the answer but saw this and was interested because just yesterday I was down at harbor freight looking at winches thinking of using one as a way lower myself down a mine shaft.(anyone done this) Anyhow the only thing I can think of and this may sound dumb but if you knew the pivot point of what you wanted to move and really wanted to move it you could drill a hole into it and attach an eye bolt so as to use the best angle. (long time since physics class, I probably mean center of gravity)

 

[SunshineMiner]

minedog - I will say there is a way to do it with a cable grabber.. But safety wise. NOT recommended. There are certain techniques and equipment rock climbers use to haul themselves and their gear up out of caves like those in south america that are hundreds of feet deep. You'd have to try google for that one though.... As for mine shaft safety.. You should also look into a gas monitor or air circulation as mine shafts and any confined space for that matter can be a unsuspecting killer. Drop 5' into a whole with a nasty atmosphere and you're toast. Also, don't mess with the bats.

As for the drilling for an eye bolt, that would take more time and effort i believe than slinging the boulder... But i get what you're saying in terms of finding the ideal pulling angle for using a bolt

 

[joncutt87]

You can remove the risk of cable whip, by placing an old jacket on the cable. We keep an extra old Carhardt style coat in the truck, I use it when using both cables and chains. Just in case something goes pop.

 

[Hoser John]

Trucker straps are the best and last for many MANY 1,000s of pulls. They conform to the rocks and grip very well and NO snapback like cables. Chainlink fencing sections have 2 uses-wrap around a boulder to move and cobbles removal out of the hole. Simply lay flay,pile on cobbles and winch 2 ways-double over and wrap pull or anchor one end and pull the other end over-think taco wrapping. Comealongs work great(grip hoist more better BUT $$$$$$) but must buy a decent one that ratchets both pulling and releasing other wise you can't releave the pressure and what a mess then. John

 

[minerrick]

This topic is right up my alley..... I've had a little experience on this topic. Every day I am at my claim, I am winching all day long. And winching 6-8' diameter rocks (rock after rock after rock....) needless to say I am working in a rockpile.

1. Winching- I've used a griphoist, but too slow for me. I like using motorized winching. Look at capstan winches for portable power winches. I use a winches plus motorized hydraulic winch and I have abused it for years and it just keeps working with no issues whatsoever. Warning- it isn't a cheap winch.

2. Winch cable- I use synthetic winch cable. It is nylon, but when using any winch cable- especially and really tight pulls, make sure everyone is out of the way. I've never had a problem, but if something snaps, the whiplash would be catastrophic if someone was in the way.

3. Winch attachment points: Bedrock. I bolt Simpson Titen bolts to the bedrock and to boulders I need to move. Especially the round ones that every strap that you can imagine will slip off of. I weld up a metal attachment point for both the bedrock and boulders to attach the cable hook to.

4. Straps: you get what you pay for. i don't bother what Harbor Freight. The biggest issue with straps is abrasion against other rocks. I rarely break a strap from the pull, but they will break like pieces of string as they abrade away being dragged across other rocks. Go to Whitecap construction supply and buy the sling straps (I get all different lengths for different sized rocks). They are 3 and 4 layers of strapping sewn together and they last a long time before abrading away.

5. Drilling winch attachment holes: Best deal (not in a wet evironment) is a harbor freight $60 generator and their cheap rotohammer ($60). If you are working where it is wet, go onlline at ebay and buy a Ryobi ER160 gas powered rotohammer. They were built in the 1980's and they work pretty good. There are chinese ones being sold currently that are apparently pretty good too.

6. I make big rocks smaller with a Sierra Blaster. I did a review in the Western Mining Alliance Newsletter in the Dec 2012 issue. I love that device and use the hell out of it. In my book, its a game changer.

Hope this helps.

 

[SunshineMiner]

So I noticed that a lot of cable winches are using 3/8 cable or something like that.. I noticed the 8,000lb rating one i posted used only 1/4" cable. Yikes. My question with that is then.. Should I just replace the cable with 3/8" cable.. or amsteel as i saw in another thread?

Was able to find a 3ton chain lift similar to this one: http://www.amazon.com/Chain-Hoist-Come-Along-Puller/dp/B00B1ZZJZY on craigslist for $50 today... I think i'm gonna throw down :P
Any recommendations for using chain come alongs? Is change of direction needed?(i dont think so?) Any safety concerns you guys would like to point out when using chains and straps?

And can anyone who has used both cable and chain systems comment on the pros vs cons in terms of ease of use, safety, quickest methods?

Joncutt - I seem to see a lot of people mentioning this. I don't know that I would trust it, even to an amazing carhartt, but I can see where it would work and its growing on me >.<

Hoser - Always a pleasure reading your posts. Always full of good info and straight to the point, sometimes very on point That being said I have an aunt and uncle who live up in the Weaverville area on Browns Creek.. They actually own a little Red Barn Mercantile/food joint on 299 right near the turn off for Douglas City/Weaverville. They haven't touched their creek since the dredge ban. I'm pretty stoked to get up there sometime this year(hopefully this month!) and do some digging... and if all goes well.. even put my uncles dredge back in the water! :P

I like the idea of the chain link fence! Whats your experiences using it? Whats the recommended weight/rock size for chain link usage? Can you layer it for more weight?

Whats so great about a grip hoist? I'm not a cable fan I'm assuming bigger cables? = bigger load = bigger safety margin?

Minerrick - Someday i'll be able to get an electric winch.. once I find that proverbial once(s) :P
I love how you have access to a Sierra Blaster.. I saw that and thought holy cow! But then I'd need a drill and such.. After those ounces

Sunshine

ps: Sunshine was a nickname i got in college due to being a california kid on the east coast when Remember the Titans was popular.. But i'm just stoked TNet has a Sunny Smiley

 

[minerrick]

So I noticed that a lot of cable winches are using 3/8 cable or something like that.. I noticed the 8,000lb rating one i posted used only 1/4" cable. Yikes. My question with that is then.. Should I just replace the cable with 3/8" cable.. or amsteel as i saw in another thread?

Was able to find a 3ton chain lift similar to this one: http://www.amazon.com/Chain-Hoist-Come-Along-Puller/dp/B00B1ZZJZY on craigslist for $50 today... I think i'm gonna throw down :P
Any recommendations for using chain come alongs? Is change of direction needed?(i dont think so?) Any safety concerns you guys would like to point out when using chains and straps?

And can anyone who has used both cable and chain systems comment on the pros vs cons in terms of ease of use, safety, quickest methods?

Minerrick - Someday i'll be able to get an electric winch.. once I find that proverbial once(s) :P
I love how you have access to a Sierra Blaster.. I saw that and thought holy cow! But then I'd need a drill and such.. After those ounces

Sunshine

3/8" cable: 3/8" Superline XD Winch Line - 21,700 lbs - Master Pull this stuff is bomb-proof. and this particular brand actually is very abrasion resistant. I bought the cheaper stuff and it frays almost instantly and it is almost as expensive. Again, you get what you pay for.

chain? ugh.... I have to carry everything on my back. Chain is not an option.

Electric winch? don't waste your money. Mechanical or hydraulic- an electric won't be able to run all day long without tearing up batteries.

Like I said, the Sierra Blaster is a game changer. In my book, it would be the FIRST tool I buy, because you can get under the rocks that NO ONE else EVER has. Actually, I just started reading a book that is a compilation of newspaper articles from the 1850's on in CA. There are stories of guys going out and with a pocket knife, digging out lbs of gold. POUNDS. And us modern day miners are happy about a few flakes in our pans and boxes. THE ONLY place there is even a SLIGHT POSSIBILITY you will (easily) find big gold in this modern day, is where the old timers never went. Under BIG ROCKS is my guess. Even outside of the waterline. BIG ROCKS. The kind that you look at and think "damn, that's a big rock". I am hoping one of the BIG ROCKS I move where I am working will uncover the bedrock seen in 1848, where I too can dig lbs out with my pocket knife.

 

[goldenIrishman]

the only thing I can say on this subject is that you might want to shrink the boulders down a bit if they're too heavy for your equipment. As we used to say in the Army... "There's no problem that the proper application of high explosives will not solve!". If you're not qualified to use them, there are the options of using "Sierra Blasters" or doing Chinese Blasting is you have a good supply of water available.

 

[Bejay]

Lots of good ideas. Fear of cables is very valid, and years ago this topic was discussed in great detail. The best answer I heard at that time was to drape sleeping bags or heavy blankets over the cable when fearful of them snapping. The sleeping bags/blankets remove the energy of the snap/whip. A jacket was mentioned earlier.....same principle but on a smaller scale.

If a cable system is desired I might suggest something that works good for us. The very large multi geared boat cranks for pulling large boats up onto trailers works very well (remember the sleeping bag/blanket trick!). If you attach the boat crank to a frame and then chain it to a tree or larger monument you can pull almost anything. No batteries or elect power needed.

Another, yet costly, approach is Dexpan: http://www.archerusa.com/

Bejay

 

[fowledup]

Replacing 1/4" cable with 3/8"s- Not a good idea as the framework on the come along (especiallly Harbor Frieght) is probably not designed to handle it.

Boulder slings- couple sizes
snatch blocks
screw jacks
cribbing- wouldn't pack it in but have a means to make some and have it staged nearby.
Secondary winch/come along in case of failure of stuck or bound rigging
Bars, axe, and beaters
wedges -several, asst sizes
clevis's
firehose wrapped chokers
"Things ta make it go boom!"

There is also a very cool vid on youtube showing the Army Corp. of Engineers pulling out a hummer burried in the sand using only ropes, snatch blocks, and people. not mining related but interesting to see leverage in action.

 

[joncutt87]

The jacket acts as a damper, absorbing the cable's energy.

 

[minerrick]

The reason I like my Winches Plus winch is the control is on a 25 foot cord, and I am far, far away from the action- and I make sure everyone around is aware of the winching and is out of the way.

 

[Ecominer]

It sounds like most everyone drives up to the area where they are working, drops off their stuff, and goes to work. I use a slightly different system.

Most of the boulders I have moved are usually several miles off the road. I thought a long time and tried a few different methods before I found a system that works for me and has a minimum of danger attached to it.

I use a four ton winch like Sunshine mentioned above. Instead of using a cable (which is not only heavy to carry great distances, but can be dangerous) I use a mountain climbing rope that is 120 feet long and has a strength of 6000 pounds. The combination probably doesn't weigh much over twenty pounds. (I have several ropes of different thicknesses and tensile strength, but it depends on the job.)

The reason I use a 120 foot rope is that with it I can reach out and attach to a tree or another boulder. The first thing you do is tie on to the boulder you are trying to move, then go out and find something that is strong enough to pull your boulder in the direction you want. Tie off on the second object.

Now create a couple of slip knots. One fairly close to the second object (tree or boulder). If you have a lot of slack in your rope create another slip knot or loop and attach your winch to both loops or knots. The idea is to stay away from the boulder you are trying to move.

Now start winching. You should be able to pull a 4 -6 ton boulder fairly easy this way. I have used this method multiple times and it just amazes me that it is so simple, safe, and useful. I have never come up against a boulder I couldn't move and have never had a rope break.

As in all things, safety first, and practice with the small boulders first.

 

[Bonaro]

I have a old style Warn upright 8000 lb. winch mounted to a trailer hitch so I can just drop it onto the ball on my truck when I want to pull rock. I am fortunate to have road access near where I work. I also have a wireless remote control that allows me to operate the winch about 100' away.
I use chain link fence to pile cobbles on as I work then winch them out of the hole out of my way. The fence is spent after 10-15 winches but it serves the purpose.
Synthetic winch rope can't be beat. It is stronger than steel of the same diameter, you never get a cable burr to cut your cold wet hands open and when you finally manage to snap it, It just goes limp instead of recoil.
I dont use tow straps for chokers, abrasion kills them. I use wire cable about 15' long with loops woven in each end. Two wraps around a rock and it will follow me anywhere. It odd cases I will bust out the tire chains to use as a rock net. I have a set of chains linked together side by side for this purpose.
Lifting the boulders should not be your goal. Try to roll them. Slide them if you have to.

Making the big rocks into smaller rocks does make the winching easier but explosives are dangerous. Look into using Dexpan. You have to drill a few holes then mix up the Dexpan into a mortar like soup and pour it in. Come back the next day and the Dex will have hardened and swollen and split the rock....no kaboom....no looky-loo's.

 

[Hoser John]

My PAs folks live on Browns and my bud Randy Davis RIP worked the confluence with weaver for years. Looked at much property up there but couldn't find a piece big enough(80 acres) to get the seclusion needed. Simply go to any briggs dealer and get the "super lowtone muffler" and install to quiet your engine down 80% in that canyon as folks mind each others business in there. No mods needed-simply pop off the 2 bolts on old and same same holds new one in place)that's for minerrick also as his poor ears taking a beating). #1 rule is always err on the side of caution and it'll be a cold day in hell when I use cables again as just seen toooooo many folks mangled,even with caution.John

 

[meMiner]

A couple of quick thoughts. Each rock and situation is different. Study the old boy to figure out the best approach. Sometimes, it is simply to let gravity work for you by digging a hole beside it and letting it fall in (hopefully, after you are out of the hole). Sometimes, you can dig under it a short ways to confirm there is gold before you spend tons of time for no good reason. There are various techniques to make it smaller and most require a great deal of work. If winching it out of a hole, make you life easier by building a ramp to pull it up and if the going is slow, drop rocks behind it so it does not return to where it came from. It is sometimes not allowed to tie off to a tree because you may rub off the bark and kill it. I heard about one fellow who was caught winching out his stuck truck on an unmaintained (4x4) road and he had to pay for the tree (replacement value).

 

[IMPDLN]

Hello gentlemen. I am a professional recovery specialist. Been winching over 20 years. Wire rope, or cable, handled properly is very difficult to break. A few things to remember when using wire rope is to always wind it properly. Never overlap wrap it on a spool like a fishing reel. Always replace cable with what the winch is rated for. Flat spots or kinks are guaranteed failures. Friction will ruin a cable, Snatch blocks are your friend, and used properly will do more with less power. Always use cable with properly manufactured terminations. Never use cable clamps. Combinations of chains and straps are also used along with cable for proper operation during recoveries. Hydraulic winches will work much harder and longer than electric winches.

Industry standard for a 8,000lb rated winch would have 3/8'' cable...10,000lb-12,000lb 7/16'' and 15,000lb 1/2'' cable. Snatch blocks, straps, and chains should always be matched to the line pull or rating of the winch. We do lots of vehicle recoveries around boulders and trees that would destroy synthetic cable, so we only use wire rope. When everything is properly matched and properly maintained, your winch will stop pulling before you break anything, cable strap or chain.

Wire rope should be replaced anytime it is flat spotted, kinked, crimped or has more than 6 wires broken in a 12 inch section. Wire rope will lose it's shape over time and after lots of use. It will become oval over time after being wound on the spool under tension. When kept wound on the spool properly and flat it will last many thousands of uses. The main deck cable on my truck which is used many times daily is almost 2 years old and still in good useable condition. The cable on my side puller, although not used as much, works harder when it is used and is the same age and still like new.

I have broken everything at one time or another over the years. Cable, chain, and straps can all fail. Usually it is operator error. Properly setup equipment that has been maintained, I have never seen fail. The key to not getting hurt by cable is to use proper setup and stay out of the bite when winching.

Snatch blocks are our best friends. You can always get more power by adding another snatch block. Whenever you go straight out to an object, through a snatch block and directly back in the same direction as the pull, you can effectively double the power. I've pulled 80,000lb loaded semi trucks with a medium duty wrecker equipped with two 15,000lb winches by using multiple snatch blocks on each line effectively bringing the amount of pull up to around 120,000lb. The biggest problem in this situation is anchoring the smaller, lighter weight vehicle.

Whenever using a tree or anything else as a snatch point you always want to attach your strap as low as possible. Pine trees are not advised as they have shallow root systems. Oaks and junipers and most hard wood trees are much stronger and less likely to fail when using trees as snatch points. When winching on things like boulders, I would advise a setup that would effectively roll the boulder as opposed to dragging or sliding it.

This might be a little difficult to explain without a drawing or picture, but here goes. Say you have a tree you could use as an anchor that you could set your winch up behind. You could dig a shallow trench from the tree to the boulder you want to move which you could lay a chain into. Attach your strap to the tree and then a chain or cable to the strap, and run that out to the boulder. Using chain, cable, or strap you could fashion a basket or cradle around the boulder with a connection towards the top for your winch cable. Attach a snatch block high on the boulder with your winch cable and pull from behind your anchor tree. The trench should allow you to easily recover your chain when done. You could also reconfigure this setup multiple times and flip the boulder continuously towards the tree. You might be surprised just how large of an object you can move using this method with even a fairly small winch like what you would find mounted on a quad or side by side.

No matter what you decide to use, match all components to the rated line pull. Winching is fairly basic physics. Done properly you can move just about anything safely. Another quick note.....Wire rope is kind of like piano wire. It will sing before it breaks. If you pay attention it will tell you when you are doing something wrong and about to cause a failure. If you are worried about a cable failing and snap back, just hang a weight, like a small boat anchor on the cable half the distance you are trying to pull. This will drop the cable and prevent the recoil from reaching you should it break under pressure. We never do anything like this and have never had a problem in over 20 years of recovery work.

I hope some of this info is helpful to some of you guys. Be careful and have fun finding lots of gold under those boulders. Dennis

 

[minedog]

good point on the gas, but I have never experienced any bad gas in a mine. yet.... of course the idea with the winch is you have a man on top keeping an eye out and maintain contact with a walkie talkie. As you may have guessed I have a particular shaft I want to check out and I don't think its more than thirty feet deep. reading on here I do like the idea of replacing the cable with climbing rope though. I dont think it would be that dangerous with the proper set up. As for the bats. yes they do like those old mines sometimes don't they?