Ok Cornelius, I'll start posting/answering more, though I'm not as well researched as you, I'll try and do my part. I have noticed that thanks to you, the boardhas become more active. Here's my question- any info on WA or OR wrecks? I've got most of the usual suspects, but would like to see what you may have- especially on some of the Spanish ships(The Beeswax Wreck for one), Ships of Discovery, and the Revenue Cutter service. Even locations where the survivors set up camp would be of help- very usefull in locating wrecks and even on-shore detecting. Whatever you guys can pass on, I'd love to hear, and I'll share what I have as well. thanks!
WA/OR Wrecks, Info on
- Thread starter modrian
- Start date
Cornelius,
Can you give me any information or reference on the Silver Goblet found off Yaquina Bay ? I am pretty familiar with the Oregon coast, but have not heard about that one.
There are wrecks near the mouth of many rivers in Oregon,including at least one at Three Rox at the mouth of the Salmon River, and one near the entrance to Schooner Creek in Siletz Bay.
There are at least two wrecks at Nehalem,including the famous Beeswax ship. An English shilling from 1560-61 was found on Nehalem Spit in 1962, though whether it came from a wreck or was transported there fromelsewhere is impossible to tell.
Mariner
Can you give me any information or reference on the Silver Goblet found off Yaquina Bay ? I am pretty familiar with the Oregon coast, but have not heard about that one.
There are wrecks near the mouth of many rivers in Oregon,including at least one at Three Rox at the mouth of the Salmon River, and one near the entrance to Schooner Creek in Siletz Bay.
There are at least two wrecks at Nehalem,including the famous Beeswax ship. An English shilling from 1560-61 was found on Nehalem Spit in 1962, though whether it came from a wreck or was transported there fromelsewhere is impossible to tell.
Mariner
Cornelius,
I have spent twenty five years studing the early European exploration of Oregon and the West Coast, and live just a couple of miles north of Yaquina Bay, so my question about the Silver Goblet found there was not for lack of research.? I come across all sorts of references to artifacts found along the Oregon coast and try to track down each of them. Mostly they are apocryphal, but occasionally you find a genuine new lead.? You have to chase down each one to find whether it is real or not, and your advice about doing the research is very sound.? Besides, that's where a lot of the enjoyment lies.
You probably know that that first part of the Siletz River is where they shot the movie "Sometimes a Great Notion" starring Paul Newman and Henry Fonda.? It contains some great footage from this part of the Oregon coast, and if you haven't already seen it, the video will bring back a lot of good memories for you.
Mariner
I have spent twenty five years studing the early European exploration of Oregon and the West Coast, and live just a couple of miles north of Yaquina Bay, so my question about the Silver Goblet found there was not for lack of research.? I come across all sorts of references to artifacts found along the Oregon coast and try to track down each of them. Mostly they are apocryphal, but occasionally you find a genuine new lead.? You have to chase down each one to find whether it is real or not, and your advice about doing the research is very sound.? Besides, that's where a lot of the enjoyment lies.
You probably know that that first part of the Siletz River is where they shot the movie "Sometimes a Great Notion" starring Paul Newman and Henry Fonda.? It contains some great footage from this part of the Oregon coast, and if you haven't already seen it, the video will bring back a lot of good memories for you.
Mariner
- Thread starter
- #4
Thanks for the info guys- I've got a few questions to keep this rolling- 1) The Nehalem Wreck, or the Beeswax ship- this most certainly exists, though it's true orgin is still up there. Gibbs states that it may be that of the San Jose, a Spanish caravel, while some others point to it as the San Francisco Xavier. Both are logical assumptions, but until truely identified, they can be one of the many Spanish wrecks along the coast, including the Clatsop beach wreck. The interesting thing about this wreck is the large ammount of artifacts that have washed up that point to it- from the blocks of beeswax that are marked with numbers(some say dated to 1679) to a Spanish rigging block that was found during a survey by the University of Oregon that was dated to around 1635. I've attached a pic of the beeswax with a quick question: though it's believed to be Spanish from a Manila galleon, would the Spanish really have used typical numbers instead of Roman numerals? Also, this wreck(or another like it) has been mentioned as accessable from shore at low tide(teak timbers have been identified as well), and this makes sense as materials still wash up. It would be interesting to try and map where these items have been found along the beach and compare that to currents to possibly locate where these ites are coming from for further investigation. Since the beach is so choppy, it most likely that whatever is down there is beaten to mere shards at this point though. This is true with many of the sites along the WA/OR coasts. 2) The Neahkahnie wreck- this may be the same as the above options, but I highly doubt the buried treasure exists. 3) I've heard stories of this but is there any evidence? Does the goblet really exist or is it merely a story? I'd assume there would be more wreckage washed up than one goblet. 4)The Sunshine- any more info on this Cornelius? I can't find anything off the bat. 5) The Pacific- this actually coule be one that may be fairly simple to locate- it was well documented, and is well known- records from the time as well as the logs from the Orpheus could help locate it. Since it had walking beam engines, that would be a large, identifiable metal target on the bottom- and as shown with the recovery of the Central America and the Republic, these same techniqies could work to locate and recover the strongbox, but if it's really worth it is the question. Any more tips/ideas? I live in Seattle, so I'm familliar with locale history and rsources, so I'd love to hear more ideas on places to poke around...
Attachments
Modrian,
The Beeswax ship is generally believed to be a Manila galleon because of the large amount of beeswax found at Nehalem. The wax was used both for domestic and religious candles, and also to light the silver mines operated by the Spanish in Mexico and Peru. There are various reports available which show that it came from the East Indies and date it as far back as the 16th Century. The block you show is in the Pineer Museum at Tillamook. Looking at the spacing on that block, the 67 is almost certainly not part of a date, though the Spanish did use this form of numbers for dates more often than Roman numerals. There is also a little silver oil jar in the Museum which was actually taken out of the wreck one time when it was exposed because of shifting sands. I have never been able to find reliable records about its location, but from snippets of info I believe it is about due west of the Airfield. If it is a Manila galleon wreck, then it is probably a very early one, prior to 1590, when they started to arm thenselves after Cavendish had captured the Santa Ana. The Francis Xavier was a large ship and would have had a lot of guns on board, and surely at least one of these would have been found over the years. There has been an amazing amount of energy spent looking for this wreck, and for the Neahkhanie treasure. There is even a good chance that there is more than one wreck on the Manzanita/Nehalem stretch of beach. There are Indian house sites along the Nehalem spit, several of which were excavated by Portland State University a few years ago. They contained lots of Chinese ceramic shards, some of which date back to the 16th century, but some are later.
Neahkhanie is so close that the chances are that the marked rocks there are mostly connected with one of the Nehalem wrecks. There have been suggestions that these rocks form some kind of early survey, perhaps to establish the longitude. One proposal is that it was made by Drake in 1579 but the basis for this logic is very suspect. I think the rocks probably do form a treasure trail, and I have personally seen most of them. However, so many people have tried to crack the code over the years that if there ever was any treasure there it has probably been found and secretly taken away. One of the rocks has a date of 1632 in a triangle, but I have never been able to associate this date with a missing ship, Spanish or otherwise. However it does correspond with the ship's block found at Nehalem and recently dated by the University of Oregon.
I hope that somebody solves the riddle of the marked rocks one day, and manages to identify the Beeswax ship. It could be you, but only if you try to do so,and are luckier than the many who have tried so far.
Good luck,
Mariner
The Beeswax ship is generally believed to be a Manila galleon because of the large amount of beeswax found at Nehalem. The wax was used both for domestic and religious candles, and also to light the silver mines operated by the Spanish in Mexico and Peru. There are various reports available which show that it came from the East Indies and date it as far back as the 16th Century. The block you show is in the Pineer Museum at Tillamook. Looking at the spacing on that block, the 67 is almost certainly not part of a date, though the Spanish did use this form of numbers for dates more often than Roman numerals. There is also a little silver oil jar in the Museum which was actually taken out of the wreck one time when it was exposed because of shifting sands. I have never been able to find reliable records about its location, but from snippets of info I believe it is about due west of the Airfield. If it is a Manila galleon wreck, then it is probably a very early one, prior to 1590, when they started to arm thenselves after Cavendish had captured the Santa Ana. The Francis Xavier was a large ship and would have had a lot of guns on board, and surely at least one of these would have been found over the years. There has been an amazing amount of energy spent looking for this wreck, and for the Neahkhanie treasure. There is even a good chance that there is more than one wreck on the Manzanita/Nehalem stretch of beach. There are Indian house sites along the Nehalem spit, several of which were excavated by Portland State University a few years ago. They contained lots of Chinese ceramic shards, some of which date back to the 16th century, but some are later.
Neahkhanie is so close that the chances are that the marked rocks there are mostly connected with one of the Nehalem wrecks. There have been suggestions that these rocks form some kind of early survey, perhaps to establish the longitude. One proposal is that it was made by Drake in 1579 but the basis for this logic is very suspect. I think the rocks probably do form a treasure trail, and I have personally seen most of them. However, so many people have tried to crack the code over the years that if there ever was any treasure there it has probably been found and secretly taken away. One of the rocks has a date of 1632 in a triangle, but I have never been able to associate this date with a missing ship, Spanish or otherwise. However it does correspond with the ship's block found at Nehalem and recently dated by the University of Oregon.
I hope that somebody solves the riddle of the marked rocks one day, and manages to identify the Beeswax ship. It could be you, but only if you try to do so,and are luckier than the many who have tried so far.
Good luck,
Mariner
- Thread starter
- #6
Thanks for the info Mariner- I agree with you an many of the points you put forward- chances are there are several wrecks in the area, with the Beeswax wreck being the best known. I've read numerous reports of it(or one of them) being visible at extreme low tides, but like you, never anything credible, always hearsay. I wonder if there is any actual published surveys out there on any of the location attempts- doe the U of O survey pinpoint where they found the block? I was also unaware of the silver jar- I'll have to add that to the list of item believed linked to the wreck. I too assume it to be Spanish, but your point about the cannons is an intersting one- again, even if simple timbers could be found, a true origin could be determined. Again, if we only has points to where all these items were found it would maybe be possible to create a debris-field chart an get an idea of where their origin might be. It fascinates me because it could be a very interesting wreck to excavate, and a simple coffer-dam surrounding the site would possibly allow that. Once located that is....
As for the markers, I've never seen full images or drawings of them, so I'm not in a position to really guess at their origin and purpose. Drake would be interesting, though slight, but it would fin in with Samuel Bawlf's claims in his book "The Secret Voyage of Sir Francis Drake". Do you have pics of these? I'd love to take a look at them so as to bundle more of this info together.
Another thought is the wrecks of stray junks from Japan and China- there's been many reports of drifting vessels and stranded sailors being rescued from these- so I'd assume there's wrecks as well, including several reported up in BC. There's a great book on these that really opens up the extent to which these boats drifted and where they ended up- "The Shogun's Reluctant Ambassadors" by Katherine Plummer. This scenario is often looked at as another reason why porcelain and iron has been found in the local Native American sites.
As for the markers, I've never seen full images or drawings of them, so I'm not in a position to really guess at their origin and purpose. Drake would be interesting, though slight, but it would fin in with Samuel Bawlf's claims in his book "The Secret Voyage of Sir Francis Drake". Do you have pics of these? I'd love to take a look at them so as to bundle more of this info together.
Another thought is the wrecks of stray junks from Japan and China- there's been many reports of drifting vessels and stranded sailors being rescued from these- so I'd assume there's wrecks as well, including several reported up in BC. There's a great book on these that really opens up the extent to which these boats drifted and where they ended up- "The Shogun's Reluctant Ambassadors" by Katherine Plummer. This scenario is often looked at as another reason why porcelain and iron has been found in the local Native American sites.
Modrian,
If you send me your mailing address via a PM I will send you copies of various photographs of the marked rocks, plus a copy of the report suggesting that it was an early survey. At least that shows the relative position of all the marked rocks.
Incidentally, Sam Bawlf's book was largely plagiarised from my own research that I was stupid enough to share with him about ten years ago.
Mariner
If you send me your mailing address via a PM I will send you copies of various photographs of the marked rocks, plus a copy of the report suggesting that it was an early survey. At least that shows the relative position of all the marked rocks.
Incidentally, Sam Bawlf's book was largely plagiarised from my own research that I was stupid enough to share with him about ten years ago.
Mariner
washington state====11/4/1875, pacific,,sank off cape flattery,$80,000. in gold coins n nuggets onboard======1901, condor, off tatoosh island, $100,000. gold n silver onboard=====unknown, off cape alava, coins washing ashore=====6/7/1942, coast trader, at 48 degrees-15' lat----125 degrees-40' long.,, $100,000. gold n silver onboard========unknown, few mile west of port angeles, coins washing ashore=======1875, sunshine, undetermined amount gold, ===== 1550, unknown spanish, mouth of quinnalt river======= mid 1700s, unknown dutch , near hoquiam, coins washing ashore,======1904, challenger, mouth of willapa river, off hawk point in the bay, burned======unknown,,south side of columbia river at mouth,,$ 50.00 gold coins have been found here, several wrecks in this area======4/3/1941, vazlav vorovsky, in 15 fathoms on peacock split, just below cape disappointment, $ 1 1/2 million in gold n silver specie on board,=====1/19/1947, drexel victory, off peacock split, $ 60,000. in safe onboard, 1/4 mile due west of bouy # 6=======within 20 mile off sand island over 600 ships lost centered at mouth of columbia river, estimated $ 600 million total in area, many near sand island========gldhntr
- Thread starter
- #9
Here's a great list of shipwrecks in the area assembled, amazingly enough, by a resturant- aparently they have a big shipwreck map painted on the ceiling. By checking the list with manifests, it could be a great resource- many are not listed by Gibbs. Enjoy.
http://www.portrenfrew.com/wrecks.htm
http://www.portrenfrew.com/wrecks.htm
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