Victorian Powder Keg?

[romeo-1]

This was found on an old property in Nova Scotia, Canada which had been used in the 1860s to house and train troops. I'm assuming it was a barrel of rifles for shipping but really no idea...

 

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[DCMatt]

Re: Rifle Barrel

I guess it's a lid...?

It says 12 GROSS. That's 1728. I doubt the barrel had that many rifles in it. Probably not ammo... Repair or accessory parts?

Cool item!

DCMatt

 

[DCMatt]

Re: Rifle Barrel

I googled "Rifle F G". I found that FG might refer to gunpowder - This grain size of black powder has the largest grains and normally is used in muskets and small cannons.

A powder keg? How cool would that be...

I'm sure some of the muzzle loader guys will chime in on this if you change the title of the thread to "Powder keg" or something similar.

DCMatt

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Rifle Barrel

there are differant "sizes" of grain of blackpowder* FG is quite large powder ( read cannon type) military muskets used FG as well ( the old military use one "gunpowder" for two types of weapon mind set) but smaller grainage blackpowder was prefered by the troops as it lit easier - thus less chance of misfires

the numbers 4 /9/77 ( 1777 or 1877) are most likely the date --blackpowder was famous for absorbing mositure and thus going bad -- so dates were very important on black powder --one did not want "old" powder

that looks like a "gross" --144 --a gross is a "dozen /dozen" of FG grade blackpowder rifle charges --that was the keg top --for musket type use.

 

[DCMatt]

Re: Rifle Barrel

19th C gun powder tin. Note the F G on the label.

DCMatt

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Re: Rifle Barrel

You could narrow down the age by determining when the stencil cutter was invented. I'm thinking the 4/9/77 is a date. 1977. Maybe 1877, but it looks to be in too good a shape for that.

The "G" added to black powder wasn't used until DuPont started adding graphite to it for milling ease. Way later than 1777.

In the Navy and Artillery a "rifle" can mean a cannon with a grooved barrel. (i.e. Parrot Rifle)

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Rifle Barrel

yes forgot the cannon term "rifled cannon" (* which of course would us FG cannon type powder)-- a old salt like me --for shame -- 144 charges of FG gunpowder for a rifled cannon -- 1877 * sounds good . since he says they trained troops there around the 1860 ish era -- and the rifled cannon came into being about the time of the american civil war --ie 1860 ish-- so it fits time frame wize as wll

 

[DCMatt]

Re: Rifle Barrel

You could narrow down the age by determining when the stencil cutter was invented. I'm thinking the 4/9/77 is a date. 1977. Maybe 1877, but it looks to be in too good a shape for that.

The "G" added to black powder wasn't used until DuPont started adding graphite to it for milling ease. Way later than 1777.

In the Navy and Artillery a "rifle" can mean a cannon with a grooved barrel. (i.e. Parrot Rifle)

I've seen plenty of CW stuff with stencil lettering. I agree the condition is remarkable, but I'm thinking 1877.

I found the FG reference in an 1890's catalog (Google books).

It would make sense for the military to get powder by the barrel/keg with 1728 (12 gross) loads in it. As Ivan points out, datingwould be important, too.

Was the military still using muzzle load rifles in 1877? I know by the late 1890's the US was using smaller (relative to CW) caliber cartridges.

If we can confirm muzzle loading rifle use by Canadian military in 1877, I'm satisfied with the "powder keg lid" ID.

DCMatt

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Rifle Barrel

matt I'm thinking "rifle" as in military speak for "rifled cannon" artilleymen / and navy gunners used this type of term -- not "cannon" -- FG would be the proper type grainage for a "rifle" (cannon) * and in 1877 rifled cannons like the "parrot" gun used in the american civil war would still be in use.- in canada most likely. --they were breech loaders and so many "charges" were were used depending upon range desired -- a "gross" or 144 cannon charges in a keg . --

muskets could use FG powder as well --and 12 gross is alot -- 12 x 144 = 1728 == so "premeasured" rifle loads makes sense if they were still using muskets in canada in 1877 .

hum seems the ( the queens own) vollenteer milita *** candains used the english made model 1842 musket (.753 --large bore) and the model 1853 enfeild (58 cal--large bore)----both black powder rifles * bet they were the ones used while training there. -- often national guard or milta types do not get first rate new military items but "older" left overs -- it would not surprize me to see the candains training with the older weapons -- USA nationial guard troops used single shot old 45 -70 rifles in the spanish american war (1899 to 1901) althought they were clearly very outdated by then -- matter of fact it was said the custers troops having single shot "trap doors" vs the indains lever action multi shot able rifles --winchesters -- help cause his troops to be wiped out in 1876 -- over twenty five years earlier.--and lead to the 30 -40 krag " bolt action" rifle

 

[TiredIron]

Re: Rifle Barrel

This might be more information than your looking for.

Black Powder Grades & Equivalent Sizes (in mm)
Sporting Grades (G) Grain Size (in mm) Blasting Grades (A) Grain Size (in mm)
1FA 8.0-4.0
Cannon Grade 4.76-1.68 2FA 4.76-1.68
1FG 1.68-1.19 4FA 1.68-.84
2FG 1.19-.59
3FG .84-.29 5FA .84-.297
4FG .42-.15 7FA .42-.149
Meal D .42
5FG .149 Fine .149



1fg: This powder has the largest grains and normally is not used in firearms, but if you happen to have a cannon, this is the powder for you.

2fg: The actual grain size of the powder is smaller than that of the 1fg powder. This powder is most commonly used in larger bored rifles starting at about .45 caliber and up.

3fg: This powder has an even finer grain and is used primarily in pistols and small bore rifles of up to .54 caliber.

Note there is some overlap between the uses of 2fg and 3fg. My personal preference, and I make no claims that it will work for everyone, is 3fg powder in pistols and all my rifles up to .50 cal, and use 2fg in all larger calibers.

4fg: This is the finest powder and is usually reserved for use in the flash pan on flintlock rifles.

Tirediron

You could narrow down the age by determining when the stencil cutter was invented. I'm thinking the 4/9/77 is a date. 1977. Maybe 1877, but it looks to be in too good a shape for that.

The "G" added to black powder wasn't used until DuPont started adding graphite to it for milling ease. Way later than 1777.

In the Navy and Artillery a "rifle" can mean a cannon with a grooved barrel. (i.e. Parrot Rifle)

I think I agree with Charlie in that the wood, condition, and stenciling don't look that old.
It looks more like 1977 to me. The "Stencil Cutter" was first invented and put into use by most Militarys in about 1893-1895. I also think they started using metal lined containers pretty far back with a securable lid. If the lettering does refer to "12 Gross" I don't think that would have any reference to Powder of any type. In the Canadian Military the term "Rifle Type C7" referes to the Colt M16 style rifle the U.S. Forces have been using since the late 1950's....but the Canadians didn't adopted till 1984?

Just my usual WAG.

 

[DCMatt]

Re: Rifle Barrel

So you guys think this was a barrel lid for cannon gun powder?

I found a chart for gun powder amounts to fire a black powder cannon (How to load a black powder cannon). It says use 4 ounces of powder for a 3 inch bore. That is 1/2 cup. There are 16 cups to a US gallon. If this barrel is 12 gross loads (1728), that makes it 54 gallons. I know that a big assumption on the 3 inch bore, but do you think the barrel was big enough to hold that many measured cannon loads?

I'm thinking - not that big - and therefore musket loads, not cannon.

Again, as Tirediron said, this may be more information than necessary. But I thought of it so I had to do the calculation and ask the question...

DCMatt

 

[DCMatt]

Re: Rifle Barrel

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see a diameter for the said lid. I shoot about #80lbs of cannon grade powder most years....and we try to re-inact the actual Military procedures used for the period.
I can assure you that MilitaryArtillery pieces were loaded with pre-measured charges and not scooped out of a barrel. Not to say this couldn't have been done in an emergency... I just doubt you would find a military container stated for such. As usual I'm not sure exactly what this is.... just pretty sure what it isn't.....and just my opinion. Its a cool find and I would think there might be other items in the area to possibly support different theories.

One other piece of Black Powder information ( maybe not relative to this subject) is that the larger Naval Ships guns WW1-WW2-Korea....clear up to 16" like used on the Iowa Class...used Black Powder as the priming charge for igniting the main propellents that launched the big projectiles.

http://www.tortugatrading.com/data/...Armor&Name=An+Antique+DUPONT+Black+Powder+Keg

http://www.tortugatrading.com/data/...chive&Name=A+Good+Antique+Colonial+Powder+Keg

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Kentuck...temQQimsxZ20100331?IMSfp=TL100331006007r31638

http://www.prices4antiques.com/fire...er-Wood-Stave-Construction-9-inch-C228514.htm

http://www.michaelsimens.com/Admin/mikesimages/1243.jpg

OK. That said... Would powder for musketry have been issued in a barrel such as this? Dipped and poured into powder flasks?

And just for my edification, who assembled and packaged the measured charges for the cannons. The manufacturer or would it have been done by soldiers?

I toured the USS Missouri last summer at Pearl Harbor. They had mock charges for viewing. The guns (the docent called them rifles) were AWESOME! I can't even begin to imagine sometiming like that raining down on me.

DCMatt

 

[romeo-1]

Re: Rifle Barrel

Great info guys! This is definitely 1877 because it was found by the homeowner prior to 1977. I was found in a dry cellar which would account for the condition.

 

[DCMatt]

Re: Rifle Barrel

Great info guys! This is definitely 1877 because it was found by the homeowner prior to 1977. I was found in a dry cellar which would account for the condition.

Can you give us an idea of the size?

I think we've determined it is a powder keg lid. The question now is cannon powder or musket powder... Knowing the size might help us .

DCMatt

 

[Lucas]

For the record...

Cask is the generic term for a staved container.

By Act of Geo. III, a barrel of gunpowder was 100 pounds.

A keg is 1/4 barrel or 25#.

FG was popularly called "Duck shooting powder" because it was used for shotgunning (slower burning, better pattern).

If we can get the diameter of the head I can check it against avg. measurements of Brit powder casks.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Re: Rifle Barrel

Was the military still using muzzle load rifles in 1877? I know by the late 1890's the US was using smaller (relative to CW) caliber cartridges.

If we can confirm muzzle loading rifle use by Canadian military in 1877, I'm satisfied with the "powder keg lid" ID.

DCMatt

Surprisingly the U.S. was one of the last "modern" nations to drop blackpowder for munitions. In the Spanish-American war (1898+/-) the Spanish were using smokeless 7mm Mausers (and most of Europe using Mausers or close variants and cellulose or cordite powders) and we were using .30-40 Krags with a charge of 40 grs of FFg blackpowder . . . that gave away the positions of our riflemen with disasterous results.

Politics and lawsuits were killing our boys. Finally we just gave in and stole the Mauser design and infringed on the patent for our 1903 Springfield.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Rifle Barrel

In the Spanish-American war (1898+/-) the Spanish were using smokeless 7mm Mausers (and most of Europe using Mausers or close variants and cellulose or cordite powders) and we were using .30-40 Krags with a charge of 40 grs of FFg blackpowder . . .

40 grains of blackpowder doesnt seem like much for a rifle.

 

[TiredIron]

Re: Rifle Barrel

In the Spanish-American war (1898+/-) the Spanish were using smokeless 7mm Mausers (and most of Europe using Mausers or close variants and cellulose or cordite powders) and we were using .30-40 Krags with a charge of 40 grs of FFg blackpowder . . .

40 grains of blackpowder doesnt seem like much for a rifle.

The 32-20 was really a pipsqueek....but it still was. But the first
22 Short....developed for S&W contained "4" grains of black powder. Can
you imagine the consistency or lack of it with those early cartridges?
Just sayin'

I'll just bow out of this I.D. I wish you guys luck on nailing it.

 

[truckinbutch]

Re: Rifle Barrel

In the Spanish-American war (1898+/-) the Spanish were using smokeless 7mm Mausers (and most of Europe using Mausers or close variants and cellulose or cordite powders) and we were using .30-40 Krags with a charge of 40 grs of FFg blackpowder . . .

40 grains of blackpowder doesnt seem like much for a rifle.

.32/20 win , .38/40 win . , .30/30 win , .30/40 krag , .44/40 , .45 long colt , .45/70 ,.56/50 spencer .......... All of them were pretty 'pissant' but folks did right well with what they had to work with .