Tombac Button? need help identifying

[Dellaina]

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

It's not a Tombac button. It appears to be a typical brass 1-piece button. The backmark saying "B.V.R.D." and "SURDORE--" doesn't seem to be British, so I think your button was made by a Continental Europe button-maker. Can you read the last part of the backmark? Knowing the complete town-name would be helpful for determining the button's origin. A raised-lettering backmark on a brass 1-piece button tends to date it from the very late 1700s into the early 1800s.

 

[Icewing]

How you can look at that and tell what it's made of (brass vs tombac) is beyond my skill level.

 

[Dellaina]

Thanks so much for your reply. The most I can make out is B.V.R.D. SURDOREE. It was found in Fort Morgan, Alabama. My dad is actually the one that found it a long time ago and we are just now trying to figure out what some of the items are because they have been stored for atlas 15 years but he did say he for sure detected it in the water at Fort Morgan. Sorry I didn't give that info in the beginning.

 

[CTwoods]

How you can look at that and tell what it's made of (brass vs tombac) is beyond my skill level.

Nothing beats looking at it in person, but, :

Looking at the face of it, at 5 o'clock position, it sure looks like peeling/corroded gilt, exposing the base metal.

(meaning it seems to be a base metal with gilt plating) Base metals for gilt buttons are usually a brass alloy. Brass is made from mixing copper with cheaper zinc, as well as other metals in certain blends...... but they still classify as "brass"

Tombac is normally found in a solid dull silver color, and close looking, shows it to be a solid unplated metal.

Once you have a tombac in person, it's much easier to tell the differences

 

[Icewing]

Nothing beats looking at it in person, but, :

Looking at the face of it, at 5 o'clock position, it sure looks like peeling/corroded gilt, exposing the base metal.

(meaning it seems to be a base metal with gilt plating) Base metals for gilt buttons are usually a brass alloy. Brass is made from mixing copper with cheaper zinc, as well as other metals in certain blends...... but they still classify as "brass"

Tombac is normally found in a solid dull silver color, and close looking, shows it to be a solid unplated metal.

Once you have a tombac in person, it's much easier to tell the differences

Funny, Tombac is a high copper brass alloy, and is used in gilding.

 

[ironhorse]

I stole this pic from another poster who finds lots of buttons

Top left and centre are examples of tombac, the rest are brass
Brass tends to corrode in greens, browns and black
Tombac is less reactive in some soils and remains in very good condition in the ground although it will tarnish green; as mentioned usually a dull silvery look

 

[Wildcat1750]

Can't give an exact ID but it is not a Tombac. Nice button with a good amount of gilt left.

 

[CTwoods]

Funny, Tombac is a high copper brass alloy, and is used in gilding.

I don't think I have seen a mix ratio of what metals are in tombac buttons. I would like to know someday.

As far as adding zinc and other metals to copper; copper if thin, bends too easily for a cloak/dandy button. Zinc adds strength but also reduced the amount of valuable copper to make something.....just like counterfeit large coppers we find in the East, that have zinc or other cheaper metals mixed in.

I am totally just guessing, but I wonder if tombac has a very high ratio of zinc, because thin zinc will break before bending, just like so many broken tombac buttons are found in plowed fields

I stole this pic from another poster who finds lots of buttons

Top left and centre are examples of tombac, the rest are brass
Brass tends to corrode in greens, browns and black
Tombac is less reactive in some soils and remains in very good condition in the ground although it will tarnish green; as mentioned usually a dull silvery look
View attachment 1414657

I looked at some tombacs I found, and they all seem to have some sort of dome at the shank, and looking closer, the backs always seem to be cut on a lathe to shape them? They don't look cast to me. They have concentric lines like you'd get if cutting while spinning it, like a lathe-made part has.

 

[ironhorse]

I don't think I have seen a mix ratio of what metals are in tombac buttons. I would like to know someday.

As far as adding zinc and other metals to copper; copper if thin, bends too easily for a cloak/dandy button. Zinc adds strength but also reduced the amount of valuable copper to make something.....just like counterfeit large coppers we find in the East, that have zinc or other cheaper metals mixed in.

I am totally just guessing, but I wonder if tombac has a very high ratio of zinc, because thin zinc will break before bending, just like so many broken tombac buttons are found in plowed fields




I looked at some tombacs I found, and they all seem to have some sort of dome at the shank, and looking closer, the backs always seem to be cut on a lathe to shape them? They don't look cast to me. They have concentric lines like you'd get if cutting while spinning it, like a lathe-made part has.

I've always attributed the lines to primitive metal milling at that time on the mould that the buttons were cast in; although, there's many examples of carved, etched, and ones with machined faces on them too
Some high end ones could have been finished that way, part of the polishing process maybe

 

[Icewing]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombac

 

[nhbenz]

In the hopes of finding out more about this backmark I'd found another, but alas there was no info. It hadn't been cleaned, so their reading of the back was just a bit off, but it is the same: https://www.mytreasurespot.com/main/read.php?3,230362,230362

 

[ivan salis]

might it be BYRD .. SUNDOREE ---THINK PHONIC SPELLING FOR ( SUNDRY ) SINCE MANY FOLKS HAD POOR READING / WRITING SKILLSIN THE LATE 1700 EARLY 1800 ERA --- BEING IT WAS ONCE A FORT --fort morgan * --many forts had "approved" vendors / suppliers called "sundry or sutlers " on post to deal with the military personal that lived there ....they could run a tab for military folks against their future pay --this might be the military suppliers name ( button companies would make your "name" on a batch of buttons if so requested )-- or the name of the maker / company name of the button manufactor

 

[Student of History]

BUMP ! RE: Your Plain Gilt Button, Backmark B.V.R.D // SURDOREE

View attachment 1414081View attachment 1414082

BUMP ! RE: Your Plain Gilt Button, Backmark B.V.R.D // SURDOREE

I am working on a very long term project to write a research book regarding early Plain metal buttons. This post caught my attention.
The backmark SURDOREE is French in origin. it means "Sure Gilt" in English, that mark is similar to the English backmark of "Warranted Gilt" , which means it is guarranteed by the maker to be real Gold Gilt. There is another Early English mark that corresponds , it is "Real Gilt". This mark, by it's form is a very late 18th century mark, last decade of the 18th century so 1790s. One was found in Alabama, at Fort Morgan, another was found in Resaca, Georgia. What I believe is that this button came in to the Southern United States with the great influx of French Hughenots fleeing the French Revolution at the end of the 18th century. Many labourers were needed to build Fort Morgan in Alabama, it is probable that a French immigrant lost this button as he worked on the Fort. Similar scenario for the button found near Resaca Georgia. the French were not completly out of Southern America until 1803. So my opinion is, that this is a French Plain gilt button of the very late 18th century 1795-1800. Do not have a line on the maker, will have to consult French collectors for the maker. Takes a long wile, if ever. Value to the right collector is modest $25-$50, and only because of the historical value.