The validity of the Knights Templars and Oak Island

I'm not up for arguing and I never made any claim of the sorts.

Since this find is in Canada and I'm Canadian and I love history I am simpley waiting to see what exactly it is FinderKeeper has discovered in Nova Scotia.

Good Luck Finder!
 

lamar said:
Dear group;
Does anyone seriously believe that the remnants of the Knights Templars ventured West and buried something on Oak Island?
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...


You, of all people, should know it's quite astonishing what 'some people seriously believe'.


Propose anything, and somebody somewhere will believe it.
 

Saturna said:
lamar said:
Dear group;
Does anyone seriously believe that the remnants of the Knights Templars ventured West and buried something on Oak Island?
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...


You, of all people, should know it's quite astonishing what 'some people seriously believe'.


Propose anything, and somebody somewhere will believe it.
Click to expand...
Dear Saturna;
And that is the truth of it, my friend!
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

CanadianTrout said:
I'm not up for arguing and I never made any claim of the sorts.

Since this find is in Canada and I'm Canadian and I love history I am simpley waiting to see what exactly it is FinderKeeper has discovered in Nova Scotia.

Good Luck Finder!
Click to expand...
Dear CanadianTrout;
Did I refute FindersKeepers claim? In fact, I do not even recall mentioning him until you brought it up. I am simply attempting to establish the validity of a claim.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Rebel - KGC said:
:D lamar, "establish VALIDITY of a claim"? LOL... WHAT would YOU accept? :wink:
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Dear Rebel-KGC;
I would accept something a wee bit more substantial than a rumor, for starters. With that having been stated, let's start at the beginning. A local native American tribe SUPPOSEDLY told a story about a group red haired invaders who came to North American shores on the back of a whale. It's an intriguing tale and one which would warrant further investigation, BUT is it an actual tale?

Where does the tale originate from and more importantly, WHEN did it originate? Is it fairly recent, or has it been firmly established that the tale pre-dates the first European settlers in the area? This is always a good place to start, I think. I wouldn't invest in a field trip at this stage until the validity of the tale has been firmly established. I believe that they call this *putting the cart before the horse*.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

:D TY, lamar... good place to start. MAYBE Keith could "help" you, "google"... "Keith Ranville - Oak Island Mystery". I know FK was "working" with Mic Mac Nation; NOT sure of THEIR legends... which are NOT rumors. Being of "the blood" (Monacan & Powhatan Nations), legends are NOT rumors, AND! "Red-haired ppl" DOES sound like Vikings... STILL possible, I recken. AMERICAN native ppl OR... CANADIAN native ppl? :dontknow:
 

Rebel - KGC said:
:D TY, lamar... good place to start. MAYBE Keith could "help" you, "google"... "Keith Ranville - Oak Island Mystery". I know FK was "working" with Mic Mac Nation; NOT sure of THEIR legends... which are NOT rumors. Being of "the blood" (Monacan & Powhatan Nations), legends are NOT rumors, AND! "Red-haired ppl" DOES sound like Vikings... STILL possible, I recken. AMERICAN native ppl OR... CANADIAN native ppl? :dontknow:
Click to expand...
Dear Rebel-KGC;
I beg to differ. Until the the *legends* have been validated as authentic, then they remain as rumors. Anyone can make up a story and tack on *This is an old Indian legend* to the front of it to make it sound more authentic and appealing. ANYONE! You or I or absolutely anyone with a small amount of imagination can do that. And the truth is, many people have already done exactly that! There were so many cowboys during the 1800s that were passing off their own tall tales as *Indian legends* that unfortunately the TRUE history of the American Indian beliefs have been muddied and discredited, perhaps forever.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Rebel - KGC said:
:D Define... "validated". :D :wink:
Click to expand...
Dear Rebel-KGC;
FIrst, a trip to the tribal headquarters of the Mi'kmaq people for the district in question might be in order. Since the Mi'kmaq people were converted to Christianity by the Jesuits (whodathunk it?) in the early to mid 1600s, a review of the Jesuits in the area peopled by the Mi'kmaq in the 1600s might be in order as well. To exemplify the extreme fairness of the Jesuits at that time, on 4June 1610 AD, the Jesuits signed a treaty with Grand Chief Membertou of the Mi'kmaq people whereby the Mi'kmaqs were free to choose between their own beliefs or Catholicism, or both.

If there is some truth to the rumor regarding red haired strangers having come to the lands of the Mi'kmaq on the back of a whale, then surely the Jesuits would have recorded this legend, as they were intent upon trying to save the cultures of as many peoples as possible. This would serve as ample *validation*.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear group;
I actually took a bit of time to research the the Mi'kmaq peoples traditional legends and of course they correspond (word for word and letter for letter) with the Jesuit transcriptions of their legends. Most likely the Mi'kmaq nation used the Jesuits recorded history of their legends in order to maintain an accurate recorded history of their beginnings.

As of now, I can find nothing in any of their recorded legends which could be construed as people having red hair arriving on the back of a whale from some distant place. I would thus state that as of this time the legend is a false one. Or, the legend MIGHT be a latter day legend as well. Just because settlers arrived from Europe did not necessarily bring to a halt the legends of the native Americans.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

:D TY, I see; validated only by "JESUIT transcription of their own legends"... surely you know that history is recorded by the VICTORS, NOT the native ppl, who are oppressed, repressed, etc. Carry on with yer research... it IS interesting; I will let the native Canadians "speak for themselves". You COULD go on Keith Ranville's radio show and share your research... THAT would be INTERESTING! ;D
 

Rebel - KGC said:
:D TY, I see; validated only by "JESUIT transcription of their own legends"... surely you know that history is recorded by the VICTORS, NOT the native ppl, who are oppressed, repressed, etc. Carry on with yer research... it IS interesting; I will let the native Canadians "speak for themselves". You COULD go on Keith Ranville's radio show and share your research... THAT would be INTERESTING! ;D
Click to expand...
Dear Rebel-KGC;
The Jesuits were NOT the bad guys in that scenario. They protected the Mi'kmaq people from being butchered by the Protestant settlers. If it were not for the Jesuits, the Mi'kmaq may not have any history at all today. Something to think about. Also, the Mi'kmaq are not a *Canadian* people. Their territorial habitat extended far below the present day Canadian border, however the Protestant settlers butchered them like sheep therefore the territory has shrunk to what it currently is today.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

:D HA! lamar,U may well be correct; take it to Keith; get on HIS radio show. Good Luck! :wink:
TY, FK... carry on! :wink:
 

FinderKeeper said:
Dear Lamar, I see you talking but you have nothing to say. You are the one making the statements and have no proof of what you want. I did not make up the story about the red hair people riding on the back of a wale this was on the History Channel and Scott F Wolter made the movie. Scott had experts on the show and I know Scott and he wouldn't have something on his show if he thought it was real. If you saw the TV show you would know the story, the show ran over 23 times this year on the History Channel and it is running in Europe to. I trust his research and we don't have to prove anything to you. It is funny that you are from Cannada and you don't know the story :tongue3:
Click to expand...
Dear FinderKeeper;
Perhaps one of Scott's *experts* may have thought to ask the Mi'kmaqs? Oh, that's right, asking the people from where the legend evolved is quite unnecessary, especially when you have *experts* that you can rely on. You could also to the official Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia site that has all of their traditional legends:
http://www.mns-firstnet.ca/links/legends/
Why bother though? Obviously, those *experts* know much more about the oral history of the Mi'kmaqs than the Mi'kamaqs themselves!

Also, since there are so many *experts* around, why bother studying the history of the Norsemen? For example, MOST Norsemen were rather tall in comparison to their other European counterparts with brunette hair. The blonde and red hair did not appear in most Norse tribes, excepting those Norse who settled in Ireland and what is now Great Britain. The Scandinavian Norse were typically darker haired and darker skinned because they originated in what is now present-day Russia. It wasn't until the latter part of their existence that they started to affect blonde hair and blue or green eyes.

But hey! Don't let the Mi'kmaqs or even history itself spoil an otherwise great tale, right?
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear group;
And now we may understand how two legends which are similar in nature and content becomes " red haired strangers traveling on the back of a whale."

That particular tall tale grew out of the mi'kmaq legend "How a giant caught a whale" which bears a striking resemblance to the Norse tale of Older Edda. Here is the Mi'kmaq legend along with it's Norse counterpart. The Mi'kmaq legend will be in red and the Norse legend in blue, for comparison purposes:

A Micmac Legend

N'kah-nee-oo. In the old time. Glooskap came to Pulewech Munegoo (Micmac: Partridge Island), and here he met with Kitpooseagunow, whose mother had been slain by a fearful cannibal giant. And it was against these that he made war all his life long, as did Glooskap. Whence it came to pass that they loved one another, which did not at all hinder them from having a hearty and merry encounter, in which they missed but little of killing one or the other, and all in the best natured way in the world.

Now, having come to Pulewech Munegoo, the lord of men and beasts was entertained by Kitpooseagunow. And when the night came, he who was born after his mother's death said to his guest, "Let us go on the sea in a canoe and catch whales by torchlight;" to which Glooskap, nothing loath, consented, for he was a mighty fisherman, as are all the Wabanaki of the seacoast.

Now when they came to the beach there were only great rocks, lying here and there; but Kitpooseagunow, lifting the largest of these, put it on his head, and it became a canoe. And picking up another, it turned to a paddle, while a long splinter which he split from a ledge seemed to be a spear. Then Glooskap asked, "Who shall sit in the stern and paddle, and who will take the spear?" Kitpooseagunow said, "That will I." So Glooskap paddled, and soon the canoe passed over a mighty whale; in all the great sea there was not his like; but he who held the spear sent it like a thunderbolt down into the waters, and as the handle rose again to sight he snatched it up, and the great fish was caught. And as Kitpooseagunow whirled it on high, the whale, roaring, touched the clouds. Then taking him from the point, the fisher tossed him into the bark as if he had been a trout. And the giants laughed; the sound of their laughter was heard all over the land of the Wabanaki. And being at home, the host took a stone knife and split the whale, and threw one half to the guest Glooskap, and they roasted each his piece over the fire and ate it.

Now the Master, having marked the light, which was long in the heaven after the sun went clown, said, "The sky is red; we shall have a cold night." And his host understood him well, and saw that he would make it cold by magic. So he bade Marten bring in all the fuel he could find, and all there was of the oil of a porpoise; and this oil he so multiplied by magic that there was ten times more of it. And they sat them down and smoked, and told tales of old times; but it grew ever colder and colder. And at midnight, when all was burnt out, Marten froze to death, and then the grandmother, but the two giants smoked on, and laughed and talked. Then the rocks out-of-doors split with the cold, the great trees in the forest split; the sound thereof was as thunder, but the Master and he who was born after his mother's death laughed even louder. And so they sat until the sun rose. Then Glooskap said to the dead woman, "Noogume, numchahse!" Grandmother, arise!" and to his boy, "Abistanooch numchahse!" "Marten, arise!" and they arose, and went about their work.

And the morning being bright, they went forth far into the forest to find game. But they got very little, for they caught only one small beaver, and Glooskap gave up his share of this to Kitpooseagunow. And he, taking the skin, fastened it to his garter, whence it dangled like the skin of a mouse at the knee of a tall man. But as he went on through the woods the skin grew larger and larger and larger, till it broke away by its own weight. Then the giant twisted a mighty sapling into a withe, and fastened it around his waist. But it still grew apace as he went on, till, trailing after, it tore down all the forest, pulling away the trees, so that Kitpooseagunow left a clean, fair road behind him.

And when the night came on they fished again, as they had done before; and again it was said, but this time by the host, "The sky is red; we shall have a cold night." So they heaped up wood more than the first time, but now it was far colder. And soon the boy was dead, and the grandmother also lay frozen. But when the sun rose the Master brought them back to life, and, bidding good-by to Kitpooseagunow, went his way.

The most striking feature, however, of this legend is its Norse-like breadth or grandeur and its genial humor, which are very remarkable characteristics for the fictions of savages. Its resemblance to the Scandinavian tales is, if accidental, very remarkable. The two heroes are, like Thor and Odin, giant heroes who make war on Jötuns and Trolls; that is, giant-like sorcerers. It is their profession; they live in it. No one can read Beowulf without being struck by the great resemblance between Grendel, the hideous, semi-human night prowler, and the Kewahqu', a precisely similar monster, who rises from the depths of waters to wantonly murder man. I do not recall any two beings in any other two disconnected mythologies so strangely similar. The fishing for the whale re-calls that which is told in the Older Edda (Hymiskvida, 21), where Hymir succeeds in hooking two of these fish:--

"Then he and Hymir rowed out to sea. Thor rowed oft with two oars, and so powerfully that the giant was obliged to acknowledge they were speeding very fast. He himself rowed at the prow."

If the reader will compare this account of the Edda with the Micmac story, he cannot fail to be struck with the great resemblance between them. It is even specified in both that the hero, though a guest, paddles. And in both instances the host catches a whale. Now compare with this the legend of Manobozho-Hiawatha, who merely catches the great sunfish, and is swallowed by it. Does it not seem as if the Western Indians had here borrowed from the Micmacs, and the Micmacs from the Norse? Whether this was done directly or through the Eskimo is as yet a problem. It may also be noted that both in the Edda and in the Micmac story, it is declared that one of the giants picked up the boat and carried it.

It may be observed that most of these Indian traditions were originally poems. It is probable that all were sung, while they still retained the character of serious mythical or sacred narrative. Now they are in the transition state of heroic tales. But they unquestionably still retain many passages of very great antiquity, and it is not impossible that Eskimo and even Norse songs are still preserved in them. In this tale the following coincidences with passages in the Elder Edda (Hymiskvida) are remarkable. In both the host asks his guest to go with him to catch whales, to which the latter assents.

"We three tomorrow night
Shall be compelled
On what we catch to live.'
Thor said he would
On the sea row."

Kitpooseagunow picks up the heavy canoe, with its oars and a spear, and carries them.

"Thor went,
grasped the prow
quickly with its hold-water,
lifted the boat
together with its oars
and scoop ;
bore to the dwelling
the curved vessel."

Glooskap, asks which of the two shall take the paddle, and which sit in the stern. Hymir inquires,--

"Wilt thou do
half the work with me?
either the whales
home to the dwelling bear,
Or the boat
fast bind?"

Kitpooseagunow drew up a whale.

"The mighty Hymir,
He alone
two whales drew
up with his hook."

After this whale-fishing, the Scandinavian giants at home have a trial of strength and endurance. Thor throws a cup at Hymir. This cup can only be broken on Hymir's head, which is of ice, and intensely hard.

"That is harder
than any cup."

This is therefore an effort on the part of Thor to overcome Cold. Hymir is the incarnation of Cold itself.

"The icebergs resounded
as the churl approached;
the thicket on his cheeks
was frozen.
In shivers flew the pillars
At the Jotun's glance."

That is, the frost cracks the stones and rocks. In the Indian tale the two giants try to see which can freeze the other. In both there is distinctly a contest, In the Norse tale Strength or Heat fights Frost; in the American, Frost is battled with by Frost as a rival.

It may be observed that the Indian tale is far from being perfect, and that in all probability the whole of it includes a fishing for the sea-serpent.

It is plainly set forth in the Edda that Cold may be overcome by a magic spell. Thus Groa (Grougaldr, 12) promises her son a rune to effect this:--

"A seventh (charm) I will sing thee
If on a mountain high
frost should assail thee,
deadly cold shall not
thy body injure,
nor draw it to thy limbs."

Quite a bit different from the tale about red haired people riding on the back of a whale, eh?
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

FinderKeeper said:
Hi Lamar, You sound like an EXPERT on the subject :icon_scratch: so that puts you in the same place you put all the experts. So if the experts are wrong what does that say about you :laughing7: This site it for treasure hunters and most of what is listed here is stories from long a go . There is no way to prove most of our history but we don't ask for proof because we know thats the way it is :dontknow:.
I have my story to tell and you have yours but I didn't jump you untill you started on my site.
Click to expand...
Dear FinderKeeper;
By your reply am I to assume that you own Treasure Net? Because I have never intentionally posted on your site that I am aware of.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

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Interesting take on Oak Island Treasure

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