The US Navy claims CSS Georgia under the "Sunken Military Craft Act" of 2004

[Jolly Mon]

The US Navy claims CSS Georgia under the "Sunken Military Craft Act" of 2004

Some of you may be following Smithbrown's interesting thread regarding the salvage of CSS Georgia from the Savannah River. It is interesting that the US Navy claims ownership of the ship under the "Sunken Military Craft Act" of 2004.

The act in question is quite specific in its wording. Here is the definition of a "sunken military craft" :

(A) any sunken warship, naval auxiliary, or other vessel that was owned or operated by a government on military noncommercial service when it sank;

(B) any sunken military aircraft or military spacecraft that was owned or operated by a government when it sank; and

(C) the associated contents of a craft referred to in subparagraph (A) or (B), if title thereto has not been abandoned or transferred by the government concerned. (emphasis mine).

The problem here is that the United States never recognized the Confederate States government. Since the United States never recognized the Confederate States government, then CSS Georgia, by definition, cannot be considered a "sunken military craft" and neither it, nor its contents can be claimed by the US Navy under the wording of the act.

This may strike some as a silly and abstruse argument, but the application of the act in regards Confederate vessels and their "contents" might well affect some of us directly...and the application of the act might well be extended to include other vessels with dubious "military" credentials. The phrase "owned or operated by a government" is potentially very, very broad...and dangerous.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[barney]

The government aspect is not so much the issue. Maritime law historically recognizes that the capture of an enemy's vessel confers title and ownership upon the captor. And upon surrendering, all Confederate vessels (generally) became the property of the U.S. government.

 

[Anduril]

Typical legislative gibberish.

Condition (A) can be rewritten simply as "Any vessel.." and jetison the entire first part "Any sunken warship, naval auxiliary, or other..."
I mean, "other" means "other", right?

But I digress..
In subparagraph (A), the term "government" is not further restricted to read or intend "US-recognized government".

Persumably, any government qualifies, including your local city council, or even a government-in-exile.
And obviously, an argument can easily be made that the Union was a government-in-exile while its southern territory was occupied by the CSA.

Plus, everything Michael writes in the post above.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

If the US did not recognize the Confederate Government - then the CSS Georgia is a US Naval craft by default. So they already owned it. ;-)

 

[Jolly Mon]

The government aspect is not so much the issue. Maritime law historically recognizes that the capture of an enemy's vessel confers title and ownership upon the captor. And upon surrendering, all Confederate vessels (generally) became the property of the U.S. government.

IMHO the term government becomes the issue precisely because of the wording of the Sunken Military Craft Act and the insistence, under US law, that the government of the Confederate States was illegitimate.

I understand your reasoning, but the position of the United States in regards its conflict with the "so called" Confederate States of America was that no state of war existed...merely a "domestic conflict", conferring no right of recognition of Confederate vessels by foreign powers. I don't want to go into a long diatribe about the possible illegalities of certain actions during the "not war" the United States waged during 1861-1865...that belongs in another forum (by the way, though a southerner by birth, I am not a modern "Confederate sympathizer")...

Incidentally, I can easily imagine the United States claiming a privately owned blockade runner as a "Sunken Military Vessel" under the most nebulous arguments imaginable...too bad the case of the CSS Alabama happened before passage of the Act. Someone with very deep pockets might be able to challenge the Act and win in certain cases...maybe we will see...

Typical legislative gibberish.

Condition (A) can be rewritten simply as "Any vessel.." and jetison the entire first part "Any sunken warship, naval auxiliary, or other..."
I mean, "other" means "other", right?

But I digress..
In subparagraph (A), the term "government" is not further restricted to read or intend "US-recognized government".

Persumably, any government qualifies, including your local city council, or even a government-in-exile.
And obviously, an argument can easily be made that the Union was a government-in-exile while its southern territory was occupied by the CSA.

Plus, everything Michael writes in the post above.

Any law can be rewritten after the fact. The Bill of Rights can be rewritten. The Constitution can be rewritten. The general idea of the codification of a law, though, is precisely that it is NOT rewritten out of convenience for a concerned party.

The argument that "presumably, any government qualifies", is contradicted by the active insistence of the United States that, in fact, no legitimate Confederate government existed at any time. The entire prosecution of the war was exercised under this premise

I am not certain what the idea of the United States being a "government in exile" has anything to do with CSS Georgia.

If the US did not recognize the Confederate Government - then the CSS Georgia is a US Naval craft by default. So they already owned it. ;-)

Except...NOT.

CSS Georgia was laid down in 1862 with funds raised by donations from private citizens. She had never and has never been a US Naval vessel.


My real point in all of this is not so much in regards vessels like CSS Georgia, but in the dangerous "creep" in government claim of sunken vessels. I have invested quite a bit of time and a little bit of money in the search for a privateer, for instance. Since she operated under a letter of marque from a foreign government, will the US Navy claim her as a "sunken military vessel" if I ever find her ?? At this point, the legal rules of engagement seem very, very loose where private salvor vs. government entity is concerned...

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

It was a military vessel outfitted within the confines of the US. The Constitution (Section 8) says only the US Congress can raise an army or a provide and maintain a navy. So it was illegally gotten at any case.

Any way you slice it - you lose. If the Navy wants it they can call it contraband, a military vessel, historical grave site, whatever. They have bigger guns and better lawyers.

Look at Spain claiming vessels loaded with stolen gold. ALL governments are tightening down.

 

[Anduril]

Generally, I get the thrust of your response and agree with much of it.
Especially, when considering your substantial investment in locating privateers. (Good luck on that, BTW!)

To clarify my earlier comment: "presumably, any government qualifies" speaks only to the non-restrictive language of the statute.
In fact, my comment is not contradicted (as you claim) via any insistence by the United States of the CSA's illigitimacy.
The reason is it not contradicted is that the definition of the word "government" does not depend upon a recognition by the US.

Perhaps some examples will help clarify the point I was trying to make:

The State of Israel is not recognized by numerous countries: (Does this mean Israel's government, by definition, is not a "government"?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel

Ditto for:
North Korea, which does not recognize South Korea.
Japan does not recognize North Korea.
Turkey does not recognize Cyprus.
Serbia still claims Kosovo as part of its sovereign territory (and thus, arguably, does not recognize the legitimacy of that government either).

For your intrepretation to be correct, the "governments" of South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus and Kosovo (to name but a few) don't actually exsit.
Clearly that is not the case.

Sorry - one last little tiny nit-pick: The US Constitution may be "amended", not "re-written".
Minor point. (FYI: I don't play a lawyer on TV.)

Back to the issue of the CSS Georgia, who built it, etc..., and regardless of the language of this statute:
It still reeks of government over-reach to me.

 

[Salvor6]

Anduril I would add that Mozambique does not recognize Spain or Portugal's soverignity so they have been excavating Spanish and Portugese wrecks the last 10 years with impunity. Also Cuba has been excavating Spanish wrecks without recognizing the claim of Spanish ownership. I wont even mention Peru, Ecuador or Colombia.

 

[aquanut]

Anduril I would add that Mozambique does not recognize Spain or Portugal's soverignity so they have been excavating Spanish and Portugese wrecks the last 10 years with impunity. Also Cuba has been excavating Spanish wrecks without recognizing the claim of Spanish ownership. I wont even mention Peru, Ecuador or Colombia.

Why do we?

 

[etex]

If the US govt did not recognise the confederate govt why did the southern state's have to be readmitted to the Union? One side of their mouth saying you can't suceede, the other side saying you have to meet these requirements to be readmitted.

 

[Salvor6]

Why do we?

Because we have warships around the world with our dead soldiers.

 

[Darren in NC]

Maritime law historically recognizes that the capture of an enemy's vessel confers title and ownership upon the captor.

I wonder if this applies to vessels that were sunken by an enemy in WW1 or WW2? For instance, we are told that u-boats still belong to the Germans. I know of a few German vessels that would be great for salvage. But I suspect as soon as anything was brought up, Germany would claim it, and the U.S. would support their claim.

 

[doc-d]

Truth and justice will play no part once the gov decides it wants something…….if needed, it will distort or make up crap to justify it's actions.
Regarding the above, it may well be truly justified as some have pointed out above…..
Nice to see they are rescuing it….

 

[barney]

I wonder if this applies to vessels that were sunken by an enemy in WW1 or WW2? For instance, we are told that u-boats still belong to the Germans. I know of a few German vessels that would be great for salvage. But I suspect as soon as anything was brought up, Germany would claim it, and the U.S. would support their claim.

I suspect it would depend on the terms of the treaty and associated red tape that ended hostilities in each instance. For instance, one of the annexes to the Treaty of Versailles states:

"Germany waives all claims to vessels or cargoes sunk by or in consequence of naval action and subsequently salved, in which any of the Allied or Associated Governments or their nationals may have any interest either as owners, charterers, insurers or otherwise, notwithstanding any decree of condemnation which may have been made by a Prize Court of Germany or of her allies."

There certainly may be subsequent decisions made related to this stuff, but this is where to find the initial groundwork on these issues...

Cheers,
Mike

 

[Darren in NC]

Thanks for the reply, Mike.

 

[FISHEYE]

This will be the game changer on shipwreck recently found and for the future.

https://www.federalregister.gov/art...-and-other-activities-directed-at-sunken#h-16

 

[barney]

This will be the game changer on shipwreck recently found and for the future.

https://www.federalregister.gov/art...-and-other-activities-directed-at-sunken#h-16

How so? It really does not change anything, as military craft have been off limits (to salvage/recovery) for quite a while now.

 

[ivan salis]

any and all things owed by confederate rebels ... upon their surrender to the US Govt became US Govt "property" as repayment for damages caused by rebelling forces and monies owed for damages to American goods and peoples ... thus any "confederate treasury gold" if found could and would be claimed by the US govt --as "govt property" ...a fine point that many over look

 

[barney]

any and all things owed by confederate rebels ... upon their surrender to the US Govt became US Govt "property" as repayment for damages caused by rebelling forces and monies owed for damages to American goods and peoples ... thus any "confederate treasury gold" if found could and would be claimed by the US govt --as "govt property" ...a fine point that many over look

As pointed out in post #2.