The Real Evidence Concerning Atlantis.

[research guy]

When it comes to mythology and legend everyone has a personal opinion. But what are the objective facts as history has recorded them in documentation?

Atlantis mythology is unique in the sense that everything we believe we know historically about the Atlantis comes from Plato, a singular point of reference. If we do the simple math as he recorded it, a very interesting fact emerges. Plato reported on Atlantis In his lifetime in his Timaeus and Critias, and he died around 348 BCE.

“Solon was born in Athens around 630 BC. If so, his lineage could be traced back to Codrus, the last King of Athens. According to Diogenes Laërtius, he had a brother named Dropides who was an ancestor (six generations removed) of Plato.”

The information Plato used was reportedly acquired from an influential ancestor pre-dating him by nearly 300 years, and when Solon received the information, it was reported at that time to be 9000 years old. So if we do the simple math Atlantis existed 9000 years (pre-dating Solon) plus 600ish years (time when Solon received the info), plus 2021 years (to bring us to current times)…. then Atlantis is documented to have been destroyed some 11,600 years ago.

11,600 years ago is the key piece of information in this timeline, because it is the same period in time where we find evidence concerning the Younger Dryas event. In this particular time period: Atlantis is reported to have been destroyed; Clovis culture in the Americas disappears; Mega-fauna including mammoth, mastodon, saber-tooth tigers, become extinct; and in this exact time period, Göbekli Tepe appears in the archaeology/anthropology record. This is Fact, as far as our science has the ability to currently establish.

The geological evidence concerning the Younger Dryas event, points to the physical event occurring somewhere over North America, and Atlantis was reported to be destroyed by earthquake and tsunami over a number of days in the same time period. North America and The eastern Mediterranean are roughly 6000 miles apart.

In comparison, the Eruption of Krakatoa caused a scientifically measurable shockwave that sent sound waves around the world 4 times, first hand accounts of Tsunamis 150 foot high locally. In comparison, Krakatoa didn’t effect a world wide near-extinction event of many dozens of mega-fauna species, so we can reasonably assume that the Younger Dryas event was a dramatically more explosive release of energy upon the world. The Younger Dryas event reversed the warming trend coming out of the ice-age back to freezing for a thousand plus years, before the warming trend resumed. The Krakatoa event was the equivalent of 10,000 hydrogen bombs worth of energy release. The cataclysmic Younger Dryas event over North America proves to be far more consequential and energetic than the Krakatoa eruption, to put this into perspective.

Because Atlantis is historically reported to have been situated as an island consisting of concentric circles, people assume that the culture was built upon a the above sea-level remnants of a collapsed volcanic caldera, and that it was the volcano eruption under the site that destroyed the culture site. This is not what the documentation provides for. The site was reported to have been destroyed by earthquake and water (tsunami), and to assume otherwise is conjecture. But where did this source of earthquake and water come from? The evidence suggests it may have come from the Americas.

I’ve already defined the scale of energy release over the Americas. Now consider the consequences for a release of energy that massive and in that place, using Krakatoas evidence to scale this information against. The sudden and massive release of energy over North America most certainly would have global consequences. The cataclysmic shockwave could clearly have traveled over the Atlantic Ocean towards the Mediterranean producing a tsunami. We know how far reaching and destructive Tsunamis can be from recent modern day tsunami events. The mythical Island of Atlantis being located at sea level never had a chance. But from this, we get additional objective evidence.

11600 years ago, science provides that ocean levels were 150+ feet more shallow than current. If Atlantis was truly located at sea level on concentric circles, it would currently be located some 150 feet under current ocean levels, and this wouldn’t matter where in the world the actual site is located. Fact!

The fact that Atlantis is reported to have been situated within the realm of concentric circles is an interesting one, considering the main site at Göbekli Tepe was also constructed in the style of concentric circles. I believe the Göbekli Tepe construction symbolism to be an effigy of original Atlantis, where I believe these people originally came from. It would make a lot of sense that the Atlantis survivors and descendants relocated to higher ground after the fact.

While the concept of Atlantis is completely conjectural in its own nature, there are facts that can be extracted from this history as they have been recorded in history. If Atlantis were to ever be located, it is very likely it will be found some 150 feet under current sea levels. Realizing this fact, you have just eliminated the 99.99 percent of the earths surface area where it should not be located!

I will expand on this argument later in sections, but for now I’m sure there are any number of people on Tnet that would like to criticize this initial argument from multiple perspectives. There are some very bright people here! Feel free to follow this thread, I’m absolutely sure it will get far more interesting over time and more evidence gets introduced!

 

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[metrotec]

Read what Edgar Cayce said about Atlantis He died in 1945 and was well ahead of his and anyone else's time.
If he had been born in, say; 100 AD, there would have been a book in the Bible with his name

 

[research guy]

Read what Edgar Cayce said about Atlantis He died in 1945 and was well ahead of his and anyone else's time.
If he had been born in, say; 100 AD, there would have been a book in the Bible with his name

I don’t accept clairvoyance as a reasonable means of obtaining objective evidence. It’s very easy for anyone to make claims about abstracts forms of history, considering the lack of having a site to compare said claims against. The point of my argument is to transparently justify why I believe these evidences should be considered facts that are hard to argue, if the documentation concerning it, has any merit whatsoever.

Atlantis most certainly isn’t what modern day pop-culture has evolved it to be. But imagine Göbekli Tepe as state of the art technology in that time. The ability to move, carve, and assemble massive stones into a civilized looking symbolic religious structure that contains artwork representative of their belief system. Now imagine this construction happening in a place called Atlantis, slightly farther back in the timeline, which was destroyed by water. This is the Hunter-gatherer timeframe in history, generally speaking, for the rest of the world. This was going on at Göbekli Tepe, while most other human world inhabitants were 1000s of year away from thinking about coming out of caves.

 

[metrotec]

Cayce was not a clairvoyant, he was a "Prophet", ie: Sleeping Prophet. He gave several readings on Atlantis.
Should read before you speak.
You're saying only goat herders from about 2000 years ago are the ones with "insight"?
As we speak, they are here.

 

[cathexis]

So,

The Maya were a civilization; they had writing, monumental buildings, astronomy, a complex calendar, strong centralized authority, and a complex and organized religion. But did the Apache have an "Apache Civilization"? Most modern anthropologists would say "no, they had/have a Culture." Because culture implies that however complex they may have been, they simply lacked the markers of a more advanced society. So even though Mesoamericans lacked a practical wheel, they fill the other markers and rise to the level of "civilization." In our PC-controlled society I'm sure many might want to quibble, but I really don't think any of this is rocket science.

What does all this have to do with Atlantis? Because, although there is not truly, any proven artifact to have come from a place or site known as Atlantis, there is lots of evidence for human culture in and around the Mediterranean in Mesolithic and early Neolithic times. There's circumstantial evidence that some of these sites were buried under the rise of ocean waters and the formation of the Black Sea. Also, the Goblecki Tepe site shows some monumental building was done right back to almost the Mesolithic (cave-dweller) age, at least in one place. So, FWIW, my take on Atlantis is that the story told by Plato is most likely a myth, possibly a legend. If it was real it was not the high, advanced civilization as Plato paints it, but rather a cultural memory of a pan-European/Mediterranean culture that was lost to climate change or other natural disaster. And all the stuff about hubris and fate and God-like abilities was filled in by the Greeks who loved to flatter themselves that they descended from some misty Golden Age.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Cayce was not a clairvoyant, he was a "Prophet", ie: Sleeping Prophet. He gave several readings on Atlantis.
Should read before you speak.
You're saying only goat herders from about 2000 years ago are the ones with "insight"?
As we speak, they are here.

metrotec, lets please keep it civil, your comment "should read before you speak" is out of line... I have read Cayce multiple times, he was a psychic.

Edgar Cayce (1877-1945), who came to be known as the "sleeping prophet," was a Sunday School teacher and member of the Disciples of Christ Church. Despite this outward Christian identity, in his early life Cayce was open to occult practices. According to the Edgar Cayce website, Cayce was able to "see and talk to his late grandfather's spirit, and often played with 'imaginary friends' whom he said were spirits on the other side" (http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/edgarcayce.aspx).

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....
You're saying only goat herders from about 2000 years ago are the ones with "insight"?....

The OP's source of written history, was not gleaned (ie.: the "source") via wooh wooh mystical methods. They were recording history (or, at least, what the authors thought or asserted was history). Versus someone who gets their messages via wooh wooh methods (seances, ouija boards, clairvoyant channeling, etc....) , then no ... I do not put any stock into that.

If you think that's on par with the normal usage of the word history & historian, then .... gee ... I guess we need to put stock into what the current crop of psychics are spouting today ? No. Of course not.

 

[research guy]

So,

The Maya were a civilization; they had writing, monumental buildings, astronomy, a complex calendar, strong centralized authority, and a complex and organized religion. But did the Apache have an "Apache Civilization"? Most modern anthropologists would say "no, they had/have a Culture." Because culture implies that however complex they may have been, they simply lacked the markers of a more advanced society. So even though Mesoamericans lacked a practical wheel, they fill the other markers and rise to the level of "civilization." In our PC-controlled society I'm sure many might want to quibble, but I really don't think any of this is rocket science.

What does all this have to do with Atlantis? Because, although there is not truly, any proven artifact to have come from a place or site known as Atlantis, there is lots of evidence for human culture in and around the Mediterranean in Mesolithic and early Neolithic times. There's circumstantial evidence that some of these sites were buried under the rise of ocean waters and the formation of the Black Sea. Also, the Goblecki Tepe site shows some monumental building was done right back to almost the Mesolithic (cave-dweller) age, at least in one place. So, FWIW, my take on Atlantis is that the story told by Plato is most likely a myth,

So,

The Maya were a civilization; they had writing, monumental buildings, astronomy, a complex calendar, strong centralized authority, and a complex and organized religion. But did the Apache have an "Apache Civilization"? Most modern anthropologists would say "no, they had/have a Culture." Because culture implies that however complex they may have been, they simply lacked the markers of a more advanced society. So even though Mesoamericans lacked a practical wheel, they fill the other markers and rise to the level of "civilization." In our PC-controlled society I'm sure many might want to quibble, but I really don't think any of this is rocket science.

What does all this have to do with Atlantis? Because, although there is not truly, any proven artifact to have come from a place or site known as Atlantis, there is lots of evidence for human culture in and around the Mediterranean in Mesolithic and early Neolithic times. There's circumstantial evidence that some of these sites were buried under the rise of ocean waters and the formation of the Black Sea. Also, the Goblecki Tepe site shows some monumental building was done right back to almost the Mesolithic (cave-dweller) age, at least in one place. So, FWIW, my take on Atlantis is that the story told by Plato is most likely a myth, possibly a legend. If it was real it was not the high, advanced civilization as Plato paints it, but rather a cultural memory of a pan-European/Mediterranean culture that was lost to climate change or other natural disaster. And all the stuff about hubris and fate and God-like abilities was filled in by the Greeks who loved to flatter themselves that they descended from some misty Golden Age.

Thank you for pointing these things out cathexis! You are spot on!

In terms of humankind technological advancements, there are a few concepts that became pivotal to the success and advancement of culture. You pointed out the functional use of the wheel. It’s not that Mesoamerican cultures lacked the knowledge of it use or function, because the wheel showed up in archaeological evidence concerning the Mexica (Aztec) culture, as children’s toys. The Mexica considered themselves “above” this kind of tooling, and they took pride in the fact that hauling in mass, was directly performed by humans as the fundamental transportation type of tooling.

Being able to create Fire, would have been one of the pivotal elements that made way for a greater human culture, and was a fundamental technological advancement for humankind at some point in the very distant past, that made way for future advancements.

In my opinion, and what the evidence concerning Atlantis seems to be indicating, is that organized labor based upon a structured unified leadership, seems to be the human technological advancement that made sites like Göbekli Tepe’s massive construction project possible some 10,000+ years ago, and I believe that organized labor was the key that hypothetically made Atlantis an “Advanced Culture”, rather than and an Advanced Civilization”.

In my opinion, I believe these are the concepts Atlantis represents, excluding the Greeks added mysticism. Demonstrated using these perspectives, the reality of Atlantis as a real history becomes possible if not on the teetering edge of plausible. An early infantile organizing culture dramatically interrupted by a cataclysmic event. An event so memorable it withstood 9000+ years of its retelling in oral tradition

 

[cathexis]

Hey Guy,

As I said before, I continue to believe Atlantis as Plato describes it is largely mythical. But I ran across a site I hadn't heard of before and the picture on the web page brought your post instantly to mind. So I'll post the link in case you're curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlit_Yam

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

There is no historical reference to Atlantis from a time prior to Plato. He mentions a character who visited Egyptian archives to learn of it . . . but so far that hasn't been repeated in any ancient text or engravings.

So there is zero real evidence so far. Nothing Casey produced would be considered evidence in a courtroom. Just speculation and made-up descriptions from his own mind.

 

[Zincoln Miner]

What's been left out is "Plato's Noble Lie". Plato believed that to correct the behavior of those not philosophically inclined (thoughts were considered insight into real worlds "Forms" in Hellenistic times) a myth is created to sway beliefs/attitudes.

For Plato the average citizens around him were stuck up in that they considered themselves the height of civilization. A tale such as Atlantis, and it's fate would go a long way to humble the masses.

There's a later, but still ancient form of Plato's Noble Lie that billions of people believe in varying levels to this day, but that's another story.

 

[research guy]

There is no historical reference to Atlantis from a time prior to Plato. He mentions a character who visited Egyptian archives to learn of it . . . but so far that hasn't been repeated in any ancient text or engravings.

This would make a lot of since considering Plato supposedly recieved the information as a descendent of Solon. According to the history as recorded, Solon would have been the first to report this information back from Egypt. We only have the historical documentation as it was written in their own time, to extract potentially objective evidences information from.

So why is Plato the only historical source concerning Atlantis? It is likely that this information only survives to this day because of Platos profound influence in his own time. The same can be said for Josephus. If these men were not as influential in their own times as they were, their works would likely not have survived the test of time.

By its own nature, the concept of Atlantis implies an 11000+ year old “cradle of culture” where humankind is organizing, and teamwork is being lead by leadership. I don’t think is it merely coincidence that the people of Atlantis and the Clovis culture dissapear at the same point in time, and precisely after these two cultures disappear, Göbekli Tepe gets constructed. Plato had no way of knowing what our modern day scientific Archaeology evidence would reveal.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

The Clovis Culture really didn't die out. Their genetic make-up exists in about 80% of the remaining American native/indigenous population. They just diversified. The decline of the mega-fauna and the passing of the last Ice Age at the end of the Pleistocene Epoch changed their livelihood from primarily hunters to agrarian and hunter/gatherer supplement. There is evidence of Pre-Clovis humans on the continent as well.

Most base their "disappearance" on the lack of Clovis style stone tools moving South or East. It is likely as simple as they abandoned that style and started producing smaller atl-atl and arrow points rather than the large Clovis style spear points. Technology!

Now that we are able to trace DNA more accurately we find they did spread out. Just altering the artifacts they produced.

As far as a lost race from a lost continent - we're not missing a "datapoint" or origin in the last 200,000 years of human migration from which known cultures originated.

 

[research guy]

Hey Guy,

As I said before, I continue to believe Atlantis as Plato describes it is largely mythical. But I ran across a site I hadn't heard of before and the picture on the web page brought your post instantly to mind. So I'll post the link in case you're curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlit_Yam



View attachment 1986084

I appreciate the heads up.

Hey Guy,

As I said before, I continue to believe Atlantis as Plato describes it is largely mythical. But I ran across a site I hadn't heard of before and the picture on the web page brought your post instantly to mind. So I'll post the link in case you're curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlit_Yam



View attachment 1986084

The Clovis Culture really didn't die out. Their genetic make-up exists in about 80% of the remaining American native/indigenous population. They just diversified. The decline of the mega-fauna and the passing of the last Ice Age at the end of the Pleistocene Epoch changed their livelihood from primarily hunters to agrarian and hunter/gatherer supplement. There is evidence of Pre-Clovis humans on the continent as well.

Most base their "disappearance" on the lack of Clovis style stone tools moving South or East. It is likely as simple as they abandoned that style and started producing smaller atl-atl and arrow points rather than the large Clovis style spear points. Technology!

Now that we are able to trace DNA more accurately we find they did spread out. Just altering the artifacts they produced.

As far as a lost race from a lost continent - we're not missing a "datapoint" or origin in the last 200,000 years of human migration from which known cultures originated.

I will agree with every single word you just wrote. According to “Clovis first theory”, all North American natives derive from a singular point of origin. Were there Pre-Clovis people here in the americas? The evidence suggests there were. This might be the contributing factor as to why 80 percent of the remaining natives genome trace back to one point of origin, leaving 20 percent in a limbo status. “Clovis First Theory” may not be the perfect theory, but it proves to apply to the greater majority of North American natives.

“As far as a lost race from a lost continent - we're not missing a "datapoint" or origin in the last 200,000 years of human migration from which known cultures originated.”

I will not argue against this quote you made here either. I will absolutely agree that we are not missing a “datapoint” concerning the origins of humankind over the last 200,000 years. So it becomes absolutely fair to argue where in the timeline the people/culture that potentially occupied Atlantis apply, within the current dataset we currently understand. And this is an important point. The potential people/culture of Atlantis would have likely evolved or devolved into another culture that we do recognize today, much like Clovis culture did. We are simply missing the information that would objectively connect them in our understanding. So the question becomes, “who is the culture that we can historically identify today, that are likely the surviving descendants of Atlanteans in the overall timeline with our human origins current understanding?”