The Ground Balancing Issue

[Michigan Badger]

There has and always will be much discussion about the subject of ground balancing. Are the factory fixed GB machines better, worse, or the same as the manually ajusted GB machines?

As with almost everything in this hobby there is much difference of opinion in this area. Personally I think much of the problem is due to poor communications.?

Here is a short quote from one of the more respected detector dealers online. What he says here is pretty much echoed by all the other dealers I chatted with. Some won't put this in print but many do believe this from their years of selling and testing many brands.

Here are two quotes from the same dealer:

"Thank you for your interest, and I hope I can provide you the answers you need.

Ground balance is important if you hunt beaches or mine tailings.? All of these areas may have an abundance of iron (a.k.a. "black sand" or "hot rocks"), which creates ghost signals due to the extreme ionization.? Saltwater beaches are even more troublesome, because wet, salty sand has a similar effect.? Pulse induction metal detectors do not require ground balancing, and they'll work great anywhere.

If you are going to be hunting old neighborhoods, campsites, battlegrounds, etc; then you won't need ground balancing."?

"Detectors can have either manual or automatic (factory pre-set) ground balance.? Bottom line up front is that automatic (pre-set) is easier.? Manually setting your detector can increase your depth, but if you get it wrong, your results could be much worse than if you had used automatic (factory pre-set).? With that said, if you are an experienced detectorist and like to have more control, then manual is perfect.? Otherwise, it's probably better to trust the design engineers and go with auto."

 

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[ramjet2187]

Thanks for the insight, Zeb. I've only owned 3 detectors, and all have been automatic GB.

Roger

 

[Monty]

The trend is leaning more and more towerd auto ground balance. Problem is, the auto ground balance can't possibly have a setting for every type of soil or conditions you might encounter.(At least not yet). So, if you run into a situation where your auto ground balance isn't sufficient and you don't have a way to manually ground balance, you're just screwed! That's why most if not all top of the line detectors also have a manual ground balance capability. Probably an over simplification, but that's how I see it! Monty

 

[hollowpointred]

aahhh but you left out set ground balance like the ace 250 has. in manual and automatic ground balance, the ground balance is adjusted to suit the soil conditions in a givin area. either by the user or as the term implies, automaticly every few seconds by the detector. with a set ground balance,the detector is pre set at the factory with a setting that the manufacturer thinks will be agreeable with most soil conditions. in most cases on my ace, it is agreeable. but.........there have been times when i have had to run my sensitivity very very low to keep it from falsing thus affecting my depth.i also have run into pinpointing problems as im sure some other ace users can attest to. when you pinpoint and the machine just "nulls" out due to the minerilization in the soil.maybe there isnt too mush differance between auto and manual ground balance but the set ground balance kinda sucks. (in my opinion).

 

[Michigan Badger]

Just to clarify my first post--the dealer was talking about a set GB. That is, one set at the factory.

He also told me in an email that mineralization also strongly effects all detectors (except PI). He said it's debatable that ajustable GB machines always get more depth than factory set GB's in highly mineralized situations.

All VLF's are affected by heavy iron and all the other soil elements that limit depth. The correct way to state this is to say the adjustable detectors MAY get better depth than the factory presets. However, even this statement has never really been proven by scientific experiments. The theory that adjustable GB ALWAYS is superior to a factory preset is an assumption based to some extent upon hearsay.

Personally, I'm now convinced that the adjustable ground balance is unessecary for my type of hunting situations. I say this in part because the best producing machines I've owned had factory set GB's.

I just ordered the Tesoro DeLe?n which has a set GB. I ordered it for several reasons which I don't have time to cover just now.

One reason I will mention is the fact that the DeLe?n has proven itself wonderfully in the UK hunting extreme depths. In the UK it's called the Hawkeye (same machine with different graphics).

Just take a look at the depth chart on Garys website. This chart reflects exactly what I've heard from many in the UK and in the US. Take a look:

Remember, the Tesoro Hawkeye is the DeLe?n.

See the chart near the bottom of the page...

http://www.garysdetecting.co.uk/nexus1.htm

 

[JakePhelps]

Thanks for the clarification on that zeb, noticed you have been shopping around for a tesoro for awhile, where is the cheapest place to buy one, particularly a cibola, Tesoros site is way too expensive I have seen the cibola brand new with warranty for 320 dolars, does it get any lower?

 

[Michigan Badger]

Thanks for the clarification on that zeb, noticed you have been shopping around for a tesoro for awhile, where is the cheapest place to buy one, particularly a cibola, Tesoros site is way too expensive ? I have seen the cibola brand new with warranty for 320 dolars, does it get any lower?

Tesoro controls the prices of their machines. So $320 is about as low as a dealer can go for a new Cibola.

I ordered the DeLe?n today from Upstate Detectors. It's the same as the UK Hawkeye that everyone is praising these days.

The Cibola is a great machine and gets nearly the same depth as all the Tesoros. I wanted the meter on the DeLe?n that's the main reason I didn't get the Cibola myself.

We should get a special Tesoro group going here.

Best,

Zeb

 

[Night Stalker]

Tesoro DeLeon

Zeb: I don't post much (been a member for a while) Anyways, I just wanted to comment on your newly purchased DeLeon, I've hunted with Tesoro for a very long time. I happen to own the Cortes, but have owned the DeLeon (twice), Lobo SuperTrac and the Eldorado (used). I am absolutely positive that you will not be disappointed with the Tesoro DeLeon. You will be amazed at the depth that you will find things at, if it says 9...95, you better believe it's going to be a nice coin at nine inches! VERY easy learning curve and the same circuit board as the more expensive Cortes. I just happen to like the Sum feature, Manual GB, Notch and backlight of the Cortes. I would never knock other brands of detectors but I would put the DeLeon/Cortes up against any $1,500.00+ machine on the market. Talk about lightweight, when I lived in CO, my friend used the Explorer and I had the Eldorado at the time, we swapped detectors for about an hour and my arm felt like it was going to fall off after swinging the Explorer. You can swing the Tesoro all day and not feel any burn or wrist discomfort whatsoever. Tesoro really knows their stuff and congratulations on your purchase!

Again, congratulations and good hunting! Tim

 

[Dallas]

Get yourself a small coil for trash...Trying to use the stock coil in heavy trash is just to much work. I wish the DeLeon had 3 or 4 tone ID then it would really be a great machine. I like it the way it is but that would really make it awsome.

 

[Monty]

I will have to agree with you Zeke that the new detector you ordered with "set" or "auto" ground balance will probably satisfy 99% of your needs. It would probably satisfy 99% of my needs as well but I did run into a situation where it didn't! Last summer I hunted a freshwater beach with my GTI 2500. The beach is on a lake that's source runs through the salt plains in western Oklahoma. Therefore the salinity in that body of water is very high, much higher than in most frewshwater lakes. I hadn't been there more than a few minutes when my detector began experiencing what I call "overload" a condition where it gets so noisy I can barely use it. Not thinking I would ever need a manual ground balance, I just skipped over that section im my manual and didn't have my manual with me. Bummer, I was up a creek with an unusuable detector, miles from home! A couple of weeks later I went back and immediately ran a manual ground balance that consequently cleared up the overload condition and I wound up having a successful day. I might add that the 2500 also has an auto ground balance feature as well, but under those severe cirrcumstances the auto mode could not compensate fast enough to prevent the overload! That is the same problem most often mentioned when evaluating the most popular detector on the market today, the ACE 250! The 250 is an auto ground balance only detector.
So, what does that prove? Well, nothing really....except that it indicates to me that your Tesoro or any detector for that matter is apt to have problems on ground with severe or unusual soil conditiions. Monty

 

[Michigan Badger]

Yes, the set balance machines may have limitations in some situations. But when the ground is right which is probably most of the time, the set GB's may well be an advantage.

I think it depends to a large extent on the operator and the particular machine in question.

We're never all going to agree on some of these issues. But, the discussions do help us all to learn and think. I'm glad we have a lively hobby!

This site is really fun.

Have a great Christmas day!

 

[ZumbroKid]

Merry xmas Zeb, let us know how the new machine does for you.

 

[rjnail]

i dont gb, if im hunting in newer schools r parks , but if i get into an old place i will,

 

[Michigan Badger]

Merry xmas Zeb, let us know how the new machine does for you.?

Thanks, Free.

God bless good buddy

 

[littlehugger]

I have never been thrilled with the GB thing. My current detector is a Fisher CZ6a, and has a manual GB with a factory preset marked in red. I have only rarely had to adjust it.
The most likely use for it would probably be salt water beaches, but it has a salt mode that works just fine with the flick of a switch.
I think auto GB (not a fixed factory preset) with optional manual set, is probably the best way to go.
I saw the remarks by Monty implying Tesoro mopped up the other detectors. And a disinclination by him to post "All he learned"
Post Monty. This is a civilized forum. Besides its too expensive and time consuming for each of us to learn this stuff individually. Whats the Forum for, except to learn?
I am experienced enough to learn from your experience, and sort through the opinion to the fact in your posts.
I personally think "Best Detector" is a flexible issue. It depends.
Do you define best by raw power? Excellent discrimination? Best all around, or individually, by category?
My personal choice is Minelab. They took the old VLF technology, and updated it to eliminate its weaknesses.
VLF detectors tech had pretty much been worked out, with accurate disc. But it lacked depth, and discrimination at depth It also did not handle salt water, black sand and other problems well..
My first "real" detector was a Garrett Grand Master Hunter CXIII. I also had a high end Radio Shack, an early Whites XLT and now have a CZ6a and a Garrett GTAx 1250.
All were good to very good detectors, but I never had any eye opening success with any. I found that if I turned the sensitivity up, in almost any conditions, they became unstable or started falsing, or both. And although they had excellent ID, it usually was not accurate beyond a couple inches. Who wants to dig iffy signals constantly?
Minelabs multi frequency tech gives the VLF detector depth, with discrimination at the fringe of its operating envelope.
The Explorer has auto ground balance and manual.
But what I like about the Explorer is the info it gives.
I do most of my hunting on land, in hard to dig dirt. Its a lot of work, and you get tired and discouraged digging trash.
I was testing my CZ6a with gold rings, and it "sees" them, but they all showed as foil or pulltabs.
Now, like most here, I have dug hundreds of signals in the foil/pulltab range, hoping it was a ring,
Nada.
I have been researching for weeks, and ordered an Excalibur just before Christmas. I plan on spending my winter testing, reading and familiarizing myself with my new equipment.
I looked at the Tesoro's, but wanted more than just raw depth. I wanted a good idea of what my detector was seeing. None of the Tesoro's had that kind of info.
So far as ordering the Excal, I could have saved money. There are other, cheaper, name brand detectors I could have had. Even a PI.
But, I wanted it for more than just beach hunting. I needed an all around detector I could use on land, in the wet and the rain and on wet ground after a hard rain. I needed good discrimination to avoid the trash on land as much as is feasible.
So, I went with the Excal.
Another thing about my Fisher. It is supposed to be "splashproof" Thats one of my primary reasons for buying it. But in the few situations it got wet, it acted up and stopped working!
Maybe you need the waterproof headphones as well, for it to be splashproof, but it was never mentioned. Not cheap either.
So far as it goes, I intend to trade my CZ6a on a new Explorer II. I am awaiting word from the dealer on its value as a trade. It includes the standard 8 inch coil, a 4 inch coil, and a nylon chest mount. I will post here when I find out, and anyone here can get it by beating the dealers offer.
So Monty, (and everyone else) Please post your thoughts, your experiences, your opinions and what you have learned here. You may get an argument, but we will all learn
Hugger

 

[Michigan Badger]

I think all the posts here have good points.

Actually, this really is a deadend street. It always comes back to "my detector is better than your detector."

One thing that would shed a lot of light on this entire discussion is to have some honest independent scholarly entity test all machines in an equal and fair manner. Will this ever happen? Probably NOT!

So what we end up with is "he said she said he said"...etc. It's the old dog chasing his own tail thing all over again.

As for fixed GB, the manufactures set the GB to provide maximum depth in most situations. Is this better or worse than adjustable GB is a matter of personal experience and general opinion. In other words, the whole deal is highly subjective in nature.

Lets all part friends and use the machines we feel most comfortable using.

You know what we all really need? A super hot hunting spot! Lets leave off this and get out yonder and dig the loot.

HH

 

[rvbvetter]

? ? ? Bottom line is for every one to grab a detector and go out and have fun.? And just because my EXP II is the best should make no difference.? OWWWW!!!!? ? ? Hey I don't mind the tomatos, but cook those cabbages before you throw them!!? ? WILLYA?!!!? ? ? ?

Actually they're all getting pretty outstanding depth. Just a matter of an individuals circumstance and preference.

Now where was I ? Oh yeah! I was looking for another post before I stumbled in here. HH

 

[littlehugger]

I cant grab a detector and go have fun, as the weather here is awful.
Christmas Eve was nice, in the 60's! But I was very busy. Gifts, church, etc. I had few obligations Christmas Day and today, but its much colder and raining.
Once I get my Excal, I will hunt in the wet, but it has to be at least reasonably warm. Wet and cold is dreadful.
But I am looking for sites. And intend to practice on wifeys jewelry with my new detectors, when I get them. I can read, and look for old maps.
As for "Best" to me it matters less what you feel is best, than why. WHY you made your choice, and spent your money, teaches us a lot. Thats why I went into my reasons for preferring the Minelabs. But I would love to hear from others.
What else is there to do?
As long as everyone is polite about it, arguing over "The Best" does not hurt anything.
Hugger

 

[Michigan Badger]

As long as everyone is polite about it, arguing over "The Best" does not hurt anything.
Hugger

Right on! And the comment above yours is also right on.

I really think all the major brands are good. I've just think some are "gooder" than others.

They say "the difference between men and boys is the price of their toys."

Us men are still all basically little boys at heart. It's really only the females who grow up :P

 

[hollowpointred]

if i may veer off topic for a moment :P.............it seems to me that loction is a bigger factor when it comes to success than the machine that you swing. i mean.....yeah, you do have an advantage with a deep seeking machine, but no matter how deep your detector can go,its not going to find coins where they are not. it seems like the guys and girls on this site that do the best, have the ability to research and pick thier sites better than the others, but i guess thats another can of worms all together!