THE anti confusion and obfuscation thread :)

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

OK folks. I was just reading the Milk thread and it dawned on me what is so problematic about figuring out all this stuff.

Everybody throws out place names and that leaves the readers to scramble around trying to figure out where this is.

Hard data on locations is a biggie. Let us coordinate all this information into one place for future reference by all.

So be a gent and please use this thread to provide location data, preferable lat long, for all those places we encounter.

So what do you have?

 

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[roadrunner]

Here is a desktop shot of my 1900 Florence topo.
I used it as an overlay on ge and came up with these co-ords, or close enough.
There is a ranch there at the end of gold rush road now.
33 22' 54.83 N
111 20' 27.43 W


It can be seen that milk ranch creek had its name in 1900 or even before.
The Burns ranch was just west of here also.
Wonder why all these people had there ranches in the same area. Looking for LDM maybe. Nah.

 

[froggy]

OK here's a couple:


Tortilla Ranch N 33.49921 W 111.29919


[FONT=&quot]Aylors Caballo Camp 33.4589380 -111.3890184[/FONT]

 

[froggy]

Also:
Quarter Circle W / Barks Ranch / Board House 33.3828296 -111.3395722

Milk Ranch 33° 21.884'N 111° 15.953'W

[FONT=&quot]First Water Ranch N 33.47827 W 111.43767

JUST remember----Your Millage MAYYY verry[/FONT]

 

[hooch]

History is written but the people who won. Winning!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Does anyone have coordinates on the rock jacob was sitting on with the rifle when he was followed that one time? Is that story deemed legit?

 

[froggy]

I read SOMEWHERE it was here: N 44.59053 W 104.71507

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Does anyone have coordinates on the rock jacob was sitting on with the rifle when he was followed that one time? Is that story deemed legit?

George Brownie Holmes sitting on the rock Jacob Waltz was sitting on when he confronted Brownie's father Dick Holmes who had been following Waltz.
The rock is just downstream from Tortilla Spring in Tortilla Creek. The spring and rock are located at Tortilla Flat. From the store and restaurant at Tortilla Flat you can walk over to the creek where it crosses the road and look up the creek and see both the spring and the rock.
While GPS is great, it doesn't teach you anything. Looking up the sites on an actual map and going there in person is the best way to learn the site and the surrounding country and the stories surrounding the sites.
Unfortunately I do not have a GPS reading for this rock.
Personally I believe the account is legitimate, however there are those who do not believe anything about the Holmes involvement. That is their opinion and is to be respected. That does not say they are right, or I am right for that matter, it simply means we have read the accounts and made our own decisions on whether or not we put any stock in them.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Does anyone have coordinates on the rock jacob was sitting on with the rifle when he was followed that one time? Is that story deemed legit?[/QUOTE]

I mentioned I believe the story is legitimate. Here is why I put some faith in that account.

I have been to the rock site and saw the spring above it and the surrounding creek, canyons and trails. I have been up Tortilla creek as far as it goes and up Peters canyon which meets Tortilla creek above the spring as far as it goes. I have been all over that country and followed all of the old trails from Tortilla spring.

If Waltz knew he was being followed by someone, there wouldn't have been a better place he could have waited to confront the person than on that rock. That rock was the intersection of four different trails that were in that area. But the critical thing about that rock is that if you are sitting on that rock you haven't yet committed yourself to any of those trails. Anyone following you would not have known which direction you had intended to go. Had Waltz gone farther than that rock when he confront Holmes, Holmes would have guessed his mine was down that trail or at least in that general direction. To me, this showed a lot of trail smarts on Waltz's part and is one of the things that leads me to believe there is some credibility to the account. Had I been Waltz, after I turned Holmes back I would have taken a false trail just in case Holmes was still lurking around which is probably what Waltz did. This is just my opinion of course and not proof the story is true or false.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Does anyone have coordinates on the rock jacob was sitting on with the rifle when he was followed that one time? Is that story deemed legit?[/QUOTE]

I mentioned I believe the story is legitimate. Here is why I put some faith in that account.

I have been to the rock site and saw the spring above it and the surrounding creek, canyons and trails. I have been up Tortilla creek as far as it goes and up Peters canyon which meets Tortilla creek above the spring as far as it goes. I have been all over that country and followed all of the old trails from Tortilla spring.

If Waltz knew he was being followed by someone, there wouldn't have been a better place he could have waited to confront the person than on that rock. That rock was the intersection of four different trails that were in that area. But the critical thing about that rock is that if you are sitting on that rock you haven't yet committed yourself to any of those trails. Anyone following you would not have known which direction you had intended to go. Had Waltz gone farther than that rock when he confront Holmes, Holmes would have guessed his mine was down that trail or at least in that general direction. To me, this showed a lot of trail smarts on Waltz's part and is one of the things that leads me to believe there is some credibility to the account. Had I been Waltz, after I turned Holmes back I would have taken a false trail just in case Holmes was still lurking around which is probably what Waltz did. This is just my opinion of course and not proof the story is true or false.

Matthew

Matthew,

Everything you wrote makes perfect sense. My problem stems from taking the word of a man who stole from a dead man, when the person who nursed him is said to have left her house to fetch a doctor. That, and the fact that Brownie Holmes denied writing that manuscript right up to the time of his death.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Azhiker]

Does anyone have coordinates on the rock jacob was sitting on with the rifle when he was followed that one time? Is that story deemed legit?[/QUOTE]

I mentioned I believe the story is legitimate. Here is why I put some faith in that account.

I have been to the rock site and saw the spring above it and the surrounding creek, canyons and trails. I have been up Tortilla creek as far as it goes and up Peters canyon which meets Tortilla creek above the spring as far as it goes. I have been all over that country and followed all of the old trails from Tortilla spring.

If Waltz knew he was being followed by someone, there wouldn't have been a better place he could have waited to confront the person than on that rock. That rock was the intersection of four different trails that were in that area. But the critical thing about that rock is that if you are sitting on that rock you haven't yet committed yourself to any of those trails. Anyone following you would not have known which direction you had intended to go. Had Waltz gone farther than that rock when he confront Holmes, Holmes would have guessed his mine was down that trail or at least in that general direction. To me, this showed a lot of trail smarts on Waltz's part and is one of the things that leads me to believe there is some credibility to the account. Had I been Waltz, after I turned Holmes back I would have taken a false trail just in case Holmes was still lurking around which is probably what Waltz did. This is just my opinion of course and not proof the story is true or false.

Matthew

Matt

thanks for posting that photo of Brownie Holmes on the rock and giving the location. I agree with everything you said about Waltz waiting where he did. It makes sense and you would have to know the area around that rock to make that kind of observation. Theres no proof that Dick Holmes stole from Waltz or any man, dead or alive. That's an opinion not a fact. and to my way of thinking, just because Brownie Holmes might have denied writing what is known as the Holmes manuscript doesn't make everything written in it not true. The two issues are not one and the same, that's adding 2 and 2 and getting 6.8
Besides, didn't Brownie had good reasons to claim he didn't write it ? Matt, didn't Brownie name the man who wrote that manuscript ?

Azhiker

 

[cactusjumper]

Matt

thanks for posting that photo of Brownie Holmes on the rock and giving the location. I agree with everything you said about Waltz waiting where he did. It makes sense and you would have to know the area around that rock to make that kind of observation. Theres no proof that Dick Holmes stole from Waltz or any man, dead or alive. That's an opinion not a fact. and to my way of thinking, just because Brownie Holmes might have denied writing what is known as the Holmes manuscript doesn't make everything written in it not true. The two issues are not one and the same, that's adding 2 and 2 and getting 6.8
Besides, didn't Brownie had good reasons to claim he didn't write it ? Matt, didn't Brownie name the man who wrote that manuscript ?

Azhiker

Azhiker,

There is just as much "proof" for Brownie Holmes stealing the ore from under Waltz's death bed, at least, as there is for the existence of the LDM.

As for 2 and 2 adding up to 6.8, those are your figures, not mine. I gave two reasons for doubting the alleged Holmes account. Both add up to serious doubt in my mind. Not sure how or why others come to a different conclusion. Maybe you can provide an explanation as to why you find the account so compelling.

Looking forward to that,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Azhiker,

One other thing....."Theres no proof that Dick Holmes stole from Waltz or any man, dead or alive. That's an opinion not a fact. and to my way of thinking, just because Brownie Holmes might have denied writing what is known as the Holmes manuscript doesn't make everything written in it not true."

The obvious question here, is where do you separate the lies/fiction from the truth? For the record, I believe the family and personal history was added by Brownie. That's just my opinion.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matt

thanks for posting that photo of Brownie Holmes on the rock and giving the location. I agree with everything you said about Waltz waiting where he did. It makes sense and you would have to know the area around that rock to make that kind of observation. Theres no proof that Dick Holmes stole from Waltz or any man, dead or alive. That's an opinion not a fact. and to my way of thinking, just because Brownie Holmes might have denied writing what is known as the Holmes manuscript doesn't make everything written in it not true. The two issues are not one and the same, that's adding 2 and 2 and getting 6.8
Besides, didn't Brownie had good reasons to claim he didn't write it ? Matt, didn't Brownie name the man who wrote that manuscript ?

Azhiker

Hello Azhiker,

Yes you are of course correct, it is opinion not fact. Those who do not believe in the Holmes version are certainly welcome to their personal opinions.
And again you are absolutely correct, just because someone denies writing a manuscript does not make everything in that manuscript false. That's just common sense.
Yes to your question, Brownie named Charles Kennison as the man who wrote the manuscript. Of course with all the personal information in the manuscript it's clear Dick and Brownie supplied a lot of the material and Kennison did the typing and put it into readable story form.
Brownie did have good reason to deny the manuscript. After it was discovered in the archives he was hounded to death by everyone he met to tell them his secrets. This relentless pursuit would wear any man down and this is why he denied any part in the writing. Brownie told Clay Worst this and Clay told me one night while we were camped in the Superstition mountains together. Brownie said, "Clay, the mountains will make a liar out of you. Men will hound you for pieces of information until you have no place left to hide, so you tell them anything just to get them to stop. You can lend a man your saddle and always get it back, you can lend a man your rifle and always go and retrieve it, but once you lend a man your story, it's gone forever and you can never get it back."

I think most people, MOST PEOPLE, understand where Brownie was coming from and why he acted as he did. If you or I were in that same exact position, what would we have done ? I don't know, probably the same thing Brownie did. I don't blame Brownie one bit.

Matthew

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I read SOMEWHERE it was here: N 44.59053 W 104.71507

This is anti obfuscation, not pro.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

View attachment 1007934

George Brownie Holmes sitting on the rock Jacob Waltz was sitting on when he confronted Brownie's father Dick Holmes who had been following Waltz.
The rock is just downstream from Tortilla Spring in Tortilla Creek. The spring and rock are located at Tortilla Flat. From the store and restaurant at Tortilla Flat you can walk over to the creek where it crosses the road and look up the creek and see both the spring and the rock.
While GPS is great, it doesn't teach you anything. Looking up the sites on an actual map and going there in person is the best way to learn the site and the surrounding country and the stories surrounding the sites.
Unfortunately I do not have a GPS reading for this rock.
Personally I believe the account is legitimate, however there are those who do not believe anything about the Holmes involvement. That is their opinion and is to be respected. That does not say they are right, or I am right for that matter, it simply means we have read the accounts and made our own decisions on whether or not we put any stock in them.

Matthew

(not really pointed at Matt) GPS or not, it is the coordinates we seek. GE is a map. A far richer resource than any piece of paper. They can be utilized with maps, digital databases and GPS. The location information is the thing. If you know where this is on a map look at the edges and read off the coordinates. Why make it about all these other things and places?

Doing background work with available tools and resources makes one far better prepared for the field activities and maximizes return from effort.

This LDM stuff is the first place I ever encountered such resistance to better tools being applied. Almost as if the old skool wants to stifle advancement and ease of acquisition of information, to what beneficial end I cannot imagine.

Thanks anyway, especially for the comment on reliability.

 

[somehiker]

Who took the photograph of Brownie on the boulder ?
What was the occasion ?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Who took the photograph of Brownie on the boulder ?
What was the occasion ?

Clay took that photo and the occasion was two old friends spending a day together.

GPS is an amazing tool, no argument from me. Same with Google earth, it is a wonderful tool unheard of only a few short years ago. I use it rarely however. Not because I don't like the technology, just that knowing the location by memory is so much more than knowing it as a set of numbers on a piece of paper. I will stick to the GPS reading and Long-Lat in the future.

Matthew

 

[somehiker]

Thanks Matt:

Just wanted to make sure someone else was on the same page, since I spent a couple of hours with Clay at the Rendezvous two years ago.
I had been to the boulder and well beyond just the day before, with a copy of the photo in hand, and was able to share some of the experience with him.

"Clay took that photo and the occasion was two old friends spending a day together."

As an old friend, Brownie IMO, may have been considering Clay's long search for the LDM when denying having written the manuscript.

Regards:SH.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Thanks Matt:

Just wanted to make sure someone else was on the same page, since I spent a couple of hours with Clay at the Rendezvous two years ago.
I had been to the boulder and well beyond just the day before, with a copy of the photo in hand, and was able to share some of the experience with him.

"Clay took that photo and the occasion was two old friends spending a day together."

As an old friend, Brownie IMO, may have been considering Clay's long search for the LDM when denying having written the manuscript.

Regards:SH.

Wonderful! Now look at a map and spill the coordinates already