the 1819 treaty (sale of florida) and how spanish ships just might be effected

[ivan salis]

the treaty of 1819 in which spain in effect "sold" florida to USA for 5 million dollars-- turning over all the "kings" and spains right to claim florida or anything in it "forever"---the territorial waters of florida and the "right" to claim them of course "transfered" with the ownership of florida to the united states---spian was to "remove" all of its movible military items and men and "turnover" to the USA all the land and thus the "fixed" assets---forts --buildings and so on ---spain had the "burden" to promptly "remove" their assets and take them to havana , cuba ---which in the case of the ship wrecks they failed to do---they just "abandoned" them---they by failing to search for and remove them "sold" them as "Imbedded" assets==in 1987 the united states goverment put forth "the abandoned ship wreck act" turning over "abandoned ship wrecks" in the territorial waters of states to the states in which they lie --it states--- abandoned ship wrecks "Imbedded" in the sea floor of the states territorial waters are a "part of the states in which lay"---the the US goverment thus states it considers that ships that are "imbedded" in floridas sea bed to be "part of florida"---if so doesn't that then mean the spanish ships that were "imbedded" in the floridas sea bed at the time of sale in 1819 were at the time a "part of florida" by the US goverments definition---and thus has to be the state of florida's since the "imbedded ships" were in floridas territorial waters at the time of "sale" and would have beenpart of "spanish florida" just as they are now a part of "american florida" ? and thus "they were turned over" to the USA in 1819 when the "rights" toall of florida were "turned over" to the USA --later the US goverment expressly "gave up" the ship wrecks to florida via --the 1987 "abandoned ship wreck act" by stating that the "states" own them--- thus " the state of florida" has the rights to all the spanish wrecks in their territorial waters that sank before the treaty of 1819--- well what do you think? sound off folks---Ivan

 

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[diggummup]

Hi Ivan,
I don't think their is any argument here is there? I mean if this weren't true, then the Fisher Group would be (and would have been for years now) getting harassed by Spain just as the Odyssey has been for it's latest finds. Treasure found in two different parts of the world but both of Spanish origin. Right? Now as far as the Fisher group owning rights to the 5 undiscovered 1715 fleet ships,I don't know. But that's another thread.

 

[mariner]

Ivan,

You should read the 1902 Treaty. It does not just cover warships. It covers all Spanish shipwrecks in US waters, specifically privately owned ships as well as those that were owned by the State. You keep giving your opinion on these legal issues, and using capitals to shout the bits that you think are important, but the legal position was defined by the Court of Appeals in the SeaHunt case. NO Spanish shipwrecks in US waters are abandoned, and therefor come under the 1987 ASA unless they have been specifically and expressly abandoned by their owners. On none of them is the owner obliged to accept an offer of salvage.

It is true that Spain chose not to retroactively pursue her rights on wrecks for which permits had already been issued, but they did not state this a a policy, and my guess is that they will intervene in the case of a newly discovered wreck, such as the one you think you might have deduced to be in the area of Amelia Island. After giving it some thought, I do not think it will matter whether the Fishers have or have not got permission to recover all the 1715 fleet. SeaHunt had State agreement on the Juno and LaGalga.

Mariner

 

[spez401]

Ivan
I have to agree with mariner and SWR on this one. One of the reasons legal research is so time consuming is that you have to chase down all of the exceptions and previous laws and statements that are not covered in a new law (or in this case treaty).

In this case, while the treaty you site does state that spain abandoned property at the "sale", there are exceptions. Also, there are later treaties that cover/clarify/modify the treaty you discuss. In addition, Spain has always maintained that no Spanish wreck anywhere has been abandoned. And while they choose to enforce thier position on some and not others, that cannot be construed as an abandonment of their position.

 

[scottone928]

I guess if it were me, I would not tell a soul until all the details are worked out. It seems to me that you will need a lawyer who specializes in such matters. Who knows how it may turn out. You may have it all to yourself and just have to cut in the state of Florida. or maybe you will have to also cut in the Fishers and Spain. But at this point, I know I would have a lawyer when you are dealing with these kinds of matters...

 

[badbrains]

im not as intellectually gifted as you guys. but I can say this. no matter which way you slice it, your gonna grease someones palms whether you like it or not. Hopefully the recovery would be as large($) as to not make it so painful. I ask myself, at what point would I be happy? 2, 5, 7 million? not bad for a days work

 

[spez401]

pharez

"greasing the palm" implies that you're paying off a bribe, and not that someone who is actually entitled to a share is getting it. More importantly, it's more like 10 or 20 YEARS of work

steve

 

[badbrains]

right. isnt this the argument at hand?Entitlement? grease the palm, line the pockets, whatever. your going to give it up. come on Spez everyone knows its more than ' a days work'.
my thing is this, let whoever is going to challenge, challenge/ pay them the heck off. take your cut and hey........see ya. I'll send you a post card from somewhere in Central America. just get the stinking stuff out of the ground or keep hoping on hitting the lotto

 

[spez401]

pharez...

i was being sarcastic. sorry, sometimes it doesn't translate well into text.

My point on greasing the palm was that if it's going to the "heirs" or those who have an "interest" in the wreck, than it is what they deserve. As for lining the pockets, etc... hell yeah... that's the reason people make the claims against the wrecks - huge payouts. It's one of the reasons I do play the lottery - yes its a longshot, but somebody has to win

steve

 

[ivan salis]

your right---(somebody has to win when you play the lotto) but the somebody who wins when you play the lotto is the state ---say you win $20 mil in the lotto---( the actual money "cash out" value is say $12 mil---if you "take" it over time the state (invest the $12 million at say 8 % interest yeilding ---1 million per year in interest) ---the state then gives you 1 million each year for 20 years---5% of your "winnings" each year after 20 years your finished--and the state "keeps" the original $12 million----if you want your money "now" however you WILL NOT get $20 million---you will get say $12 million and 40% will go to uncle sam in "taxes" right off the bat ---so kiss 4.8 mil bye bye living you with 7.2 mil or about a mere 35 % of the so called $20 mil "jac pot" ---it a rigged game from start to finish ---stay on the craps table --laying and taking the odds best bet around and its the smallest house % if you know what your doing---Ivan

 

[badbrains]

Steve

no need to apologize friend. I caught the friendly tone of your statement. I respect your view 100%. I didnt mean to sound offended. Im not as sensitive as some folk.


The trick to the lotto is purely psychological, Ivan. Your not winning $20 mill. your winning $14mill. The other $6 million is phantom money. It really doesnt exist. You can apply that to recovery also. you can say screw it i aint givin' nuthin'. and abandon the whole project. But who is going to say Hey uncle sam I dont want the $14 million cause your taking almost half of the pot, just keep the whole thing? hmmmm

 

[ivan salis]

if you don't give in and play the lotto --then they will just raise your taxes instead ---might as well get a shot a win abit a very,very,very long one---your going to have to "cough it up" one way or the other---Ivan

 

[badbrains]

Personally, give me the wreck. Its a surer thing.