Sword Pommel help needed--SOLVED!

[BuckleBoy]

Hello All,

I'm hoping someone has a good book or resource on military swords... I found this eagle a few days ago and we're thinking it was off a military sword (due to the hole under the beak for the guard to fit in)... I don't think it was a cane topper due to its smaller size, and the extra hole in it (which doesn't connect with the central cavity in the eagle's neck). Can anyone help with identifying what type of sword this came from?

I'm not opposed to the idea of a cane topper, BTW--but I just haven't found one anywhere with the extra hole in it yet...


Here's the post on our hunt:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,173929.0.html

And here's the eagle:






And here's one example of an eagle sword pommel, from the Civil War Museum of the Western Theater here KY at nearby Bardstown:

http://www.bryansbush.com/hub.php?page=articles&layer=a0701






Regards,


Buckleboy

 

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[texan connection]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

Looks like the real deal to me WOW!!

 

[La Beep]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

I think you are on to something. It had me baffeled till this post. Well done.

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

I think you are on to something. It had me baffeled till this post. Well done.

As you point out, its obvious now.

You have a really cool find, that even I would be proud of finding in the UK

Its got loads of character & a nice patina. Can't wait to hear the date range. I guess post Civil War - pre-1900.

 

[Gypsy Heart]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

I think you need to look a little earlier..pre civil war ,possibley 1830 range.....try Horstmanns &Sons

Great find

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

Thanks for your replies--it would've been easy to write this one off as a cane topper, but it just didn't feel right in the hand--and that extra hole had me baffled.

I've looked through everything I can find online--but no luck. What I need is a good sword reference book--if such a book exists. Does anyone have a copy, or can they recommend a book which has good photos of the pieces it describes?

I think this one might be easier to ID--since the eagle's mouth is closed. On the ones I've seen online, the mouth is more open.


Regards,


Buckleboy

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

I agree with Gypsy... it has the potential to be much older! However, you must judge that against your other finds.

Will, find a sword/knife forum and post it there...

I hope you can date it - it's a fantastic find!

 

[tinpan]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

nice find, i also found something nearly the same about 2 years ago.This one is made of pewter and was comfirmed as a walking stick topper.Has a hole under the beck too.walking stick toppers were made of both pewter and brass in many types of bird heads right up to 1900.good luck with the id.

tinpan

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

I agree with Gypsy... it has the potential to be much older! However, you must judge that against your other finds.

Will, find a sword/knife forum and post it there...

I hope you can date it - it's a fantastic find!

The other finds from the site were pre-CW... Nothing much that was easy to date, except for one Scovills button (1830ish backmark). The heel plate we found was an earlier one as well. No coins.

I'll look around for a sword/knife forum... any ideas?


Tinpan--that hole in the beak may indicate that your find is from a sword as well... I haven't yet found a cane topper with that extra hole.


-Buckles

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

http://swordforum.com/

 

[Hotspur]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

Hi all,

I had responded to Buckleboy over at SFI but wanted to chime in on the other dug relic here. tnpan's bird looks more like the Mexican and central/south American varieties. Where was this one found? There was an early Philadelphia form for swords that was vaugely similar but this one has the round puffy cheeks of the south American condor. There were a great variety of swords hilted for those countries and we see birds on both machete like and more elegant mountings.

As to good sword books, there are many. A must have (even though getting a bit out dated) is Harold Peterson's The American Sword title. For Eagle pommels, E. Andrew Mowbray's Eagle Pommel Swords the early years and his son's work with Norm Flayderman The Medicus Collection are two good references. Although focused on naval swords, Peter Tuit's book U.S. Naval Officers Their Swords and Dirks contains an outstanding bonus for 19th century eagle pommel forms.

As noted at the other board, the thread starter here is likely a German made example and possibly (even likely) as early as the 1820s. These following more elaborate efforts of French cutlers starting around 1800. Also continuing post ACW, but more common up into the 1840s.

Also interesting is that it was the hole for the knuckle bow that led to the swords, as opposed to canes but many eagle pommels had no knuckle bow and if found, I would tend to default to either swords or dirks. attached is my dirk (post 1872) and a sword like BB's.

Cheers

Hotspur; even relic condition whole swords are worth preserving

Hotspur

 

[curbdiggercarl57]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

You info guys are good, real good.
CurbdiggerCarl

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: Sword Quillon help needed...

Hi all,

I had responded to Buckleboy over at SFI but wanted to chime in on the other dug relic here. tnpan's bird looks more like the Mexican and central/south American varieties. Where was this one found? There was an early Philadelphia form for swords that was vaugely similar but this one has the round puffy cheeks of the south American condor. There were a great variety of swords hilted for those countries and we see birds on both machete like and more elegant mountings.

As to good sword books, there are many. A must have (even though getting a bit out dated) is Harold Peterson's The American Sword title. For Eagle pommels, E. Andrew Mowbray's Eagle Pommel Swords the early years and his son's work with Norm Flayderman The Medicus Collection are two good references. Although focused on naval swords, Peter Tuit's book U.S. Naval Officers Their Swords and Dirks contains an outstanding bonus for 19th century eagle pommel forms.

As noted at the other board, the thread starter here is likely a German made example and possibly (even likely) as early as the 1820s. These following more elaborate efforts of French cutlers starting around 1800. Also continuing post ACW, but more common up into the 1840s.

Also interesting is that it was the hole for the knuckle bow that led to the swords, as opposed to canes but many eagle pommels had no knuckle bow and if found, I would tend to default to either swords or dirks. attached is my dirk (post 1872) and a sword like BB's.

Cheers

Hotspur; even relic condition whole swords are worth preserving

Hotspur

Thank you so much for replying, Hotspur--and welcome to the forum.     I tried to locate the rest of the sword, but this was all that survived.  The eagle piece I found near the house--rather than the trash pit (where I think I might've had better luck at finding the rest of it). 

Thank you so much for the information!  I just needed the advice of an expert to tell me I wasn't crazy for thinking that was what it was...  The example you posted with the blue background is spot-on. Except for the broken back, the brow, neck shape, the tapering of the neck, and the feather detailing are almost exact.

It is interesting to know that the hole for the knuckle bow was non-existent on some pieces...  I think some members may have one of these still thinking it is from a cane...

I would imagine that the big difference between a sword pommel and cane topper is size...and perhaps whether or not the piece feels comfortable in the hand...

Thank you again,


Buckleboy

 

[Hotspur]

It can be suprising how dainty 19th century officer swords can seem at times, they alway somehow look bigger on a screen. I've honestly not seen a lot of eaglehead cane toppers but it could be because I study this form of sword and not canes. There were many, many floating pommel swords during that century and the fraternal varieties the most common. The dirk I pictured above shares the grip style of the later period militia swords and some fraternal pieces. The pommel is threaded, as were a great many right back to the 1840s.

Here is another like your pommel and even now I'm waffling to maybe English made and from Birmingham. The real trouble in pinning many down is how much sharing of common parts there was. If a blade is enscribed "Warranted, invariably from Englnd (at least the blade passed through there) and "Iron Proof" or "Proved" usually from Germany. Some of the American sword houses and cutlers were using parts from and selling swords from a variety of sources.

There is a somewhat endless variety of eagle pommel forms, many quite unique.

A bit sad no more pieces surfaced but so it is.

Cheers

Hotspur; the expressions on some birds is priceless

 

[oldbattleaxe]

Is it possible that it is from a saddle horn, maybe Civil War?