Sword found in Cape May 50 yrs ago

matthews2k4 · Mar 22, 2013

Hey all

Need some help here. Someone my wife works with brought this sword in today. She said that her husband used to do concrete over 50 yrs ago in Cape May and would have to get sand from the beach areas when he found this. Does it look familiar to anyone? Told her I would try and get some info. Any help would be appreciated!

cti4sw · Mar 22, 2013

Looks like a bayonet blade and guard adapted onto a different hilt. I'm not the person to confirm that, though.

NOLA_Ken · Mar 22, 2013

The problem I'm having is that it's a pretty often used pattern for a dagger. I first thought it looked like a pre-Soviet Russian Naval dagger, but it doesn't match any of those. Short of finding any kind of marking at all on the blade or hilt to use as a starting point, I think it will depend on someone having seen that grip style with the grooves on one side only. I'll look a bit more in a while though.....

matthews2k4 · Mar 22, 2013

That would be great if you could help us figure out where it's from and how old it possibly is. Here are two other pics with what looks like stamped letters. Hard to see but you can make out A E on one side and possibly A I M on the other...

AU Seeker · Mar 23, 2013

What I think you have is an artillery short sword, possibly used in the CW, most artillery short swords are about 26" in length, what is the length of yours(?), thought most common CW artillery short swords have marking on the blade and some have markings on the hilt but the hilt could be from a different manufacturer than the blade, but there are many that have very little markings and some with none at all which makes it hard to know the manufacturer of the weapon.

Check with a loop to see if you can find any markings on the blade, be sure to check the spine of the blade as well, I came up empty on the markings from the hilt.

The style of the hilt is rare from what I found doing some researching.

I was able to find one similar to the one posted but it's not identical, it the second listing, and the second link appears to be the same short sword sold on eBay.

Civil War Antique Shop

RARE Texas Find Short Artillery Sword Relic | eBay

You may want too contact Michael Simens from the following site, from checking out his website he seems to be very knowledgeable on CW weapons and swords, he maybe able to Id the sword for you, give you a possible value and may very well like to purchase it.

http://www.michaelsimens.com/index.asp

matthews2k4 · Mar 23, 2013

That is some fantastic information thanks a million!

daroofa · Mar 23, 2013

Looks like this.....German WW1 Artillery Short Sword

VeteransFootlocker.com

Rawhide · Mar 23, 2013

I would crap my britches I found something like that n the sand. I like your sword. Thanks for sharing.

matthews2k4 · Mar 23, 2013

I really appreciate all of the help that I have received form my friends on TN. Thanks to daroofa I am pretty confident that it is the M1849 German artillery Short Sword! Thanks again all, I knew someone would figure it out!

AU Seeker · Mar 23, 2013

daroofa said:
Looks like this.....German WW1 Artillery Short Sword

VeteransFootlocker.com*

Darfoofa, great find there!!

I do question the authenticity of that example due to the lack of markings on the blade and hilt other than the engravings.

The hilt appears to be identical, though the blade is different, that site also is calling that weapon a "WWI Triple Engraved Blue Panel Imperial German Wurttemberg M1849 Artillery Sword" which appears to be the case, except the "...M1849 Artillery Sword ..." part which is not correct, the M1849 is a Rifleman's knife (a large Bowie Knife), which is very rare, you can find many M1849 Rifleman's knifes out there but you would be hard pressed to find one that isn't a fake, many of the ones that look to be real are made either in Japan are India, I was able to find 2 examples of the M1849 Rifleman's knife, but only one that I can say appears to be a real M1849, the other I can't see enough details to be sure if it's real or not, here a link to the one I feel is a real M1849 Rifleman's knife, followed by the second example (seeing that this knife was passed on at auction makes me believe it was a fake), and then followed by a page that shows how to tell the fakes from the real M1849 Rifleman's knife.

http://www.liveauctionworld.com/Rare-Martially-Inspected-U-S-Ames-Model-1849-Rifleman-s-Knife-and-Scabbard_i9752234

Fine Condition US M1849 Rifleman's Knife And Sca : Lot 52388

Ames

Here's another examples of a similar blade that does have markings, the site these images are taken from also has some history of how these weapons (known as "The Faschinenmesser (Fascine Knife") came into use, and also why they were no longer used.

http://victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7920

Some more info on "The Faschinenmesser (Fascine Knife)"

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=6523

ex nihilo · Mar 23, 2013

Nice find. What's the length of the blade? And length of the overall sword? Is there any printing or stamping on the blade itself? Is it pitted or some surface rust?

And how heavy is it?

Very intriguing!

daroofa · Mar 23, 2013

Good post here with several examples and descriptions...The Forgotten Faschinenmesser

Pickelhaubes.Com ? View topic - The Forgotten Faschinenmesser

Edited to add AU Seeker posted this first but I didn't notice until now.

NOLA_Ken · Mar 23, 2013

Looks like it's pretty much ID'd before I got back to this thread..... The maker might be Arthur Evertz of Solingen based on the "AE" mark.

matthews2k4 · Mar 23, 2013

You guys are amazing...I can't believe all of the great info you guys have provided me in only a couple of days! Thanks again...

Not sure how long the blade is. I will get that info and post it...

gunsil · Mar 23, 2013

Very cool looking old weapon, but the story sounds fishy. Beach sand is salty and unsuitable for concrete work as found. The blade would be much more rusted if in salt sand for even a couple of years.

matthews2k4 · Mar 24, 2013

Supposedly back in the day, they used the beach sand from some of our beaches to mix in concrete, mortar, etc...the gentleman that found this sword was 19 when he found it and has long passed away since then. His 80+ yr old wife brought it in to work to show her and also told her story. I don't think she has a reason to lie...

Also, there was a magnesite plant right near the beach that used to be back around the area that she said it was found. A close friend of mine used to visit his grandfather who worked there.

ex nihilo · Mar 24, 2013

Depending on the length of the blade, I think Daroofa is right. Maybe it only lost its scabbard more recently (which would help protect the metal from saltwater). Is there any sign of wax or protective oil on the blade?

Nice photos, too, on your link, Daroofa.

NOLA_Ken · Mar 24, 2013

gunsil said:
Very cool looking old weapon, but the story sounds fishy. Beach sand is salty and unsuitable for concrete work as found. The blade would be much more rusted if in salt sand for even a couple of years.

Just because something is old doesn't mean it had to be laying where it was found for any great length of time. I can easily imagine some kids getting grandpas souvenir dagger and playing pirate on the beach with it, losing it, and it being found a short time later.

jamestroy · Mar 3, 2014

Matthews2k4? This is Joan's son. I took additional pictures of the sword, and found S.M and A.E on the hilt. And on the blade, It looks like maybe a crown with the letters G7 just underneath it. The blade itself is 19" in length. I've sent all the info to Michael Simens Historical Antiques, to hopefully get a clearer idea on where it came from, and what era. The WWI Triple Engraved Blue Panel Imperial German Wurttemberg Artillery Sword above does have an identical hilt, yet the blade is indeed different. Hopefully I will get a answer to this once and all, but it does appear to be at least WW1 era

Thank you,

James~