SOme type of lead seal?

[Kevo_DFX]

4 inches down in PA under a grape arbour at an old house in the country

 

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[Montana Jim]

I do believe that's probebly a lead seal...

 

[woody50]

Looks like a lead seal to me too....
Whatta you think Daryl?? (bio prof)

 

[Montana Jim]

It's messy to be sure.. stuff going all over the place - but it sure looks pressed.

 

[BioProfessor]

If I could tell it had been folded over, it would say seal to me. It has all the "right" characteristics.

Daryl

 

[Kevo_DFX]

It has not been folded over, it is one solid piece. I think that loop on the side once ompletely attached to the side of the main body of this thing. However, now that loop is broken. It may have been a wire went through the loop and the "seal" was pulled until the loop broke.

I say all this knowing nothing about lead seals.

Can I assume that the "1844" number refers to the year? If so, it makes sense to me that I could look for companies in Western PA with the initials CPT that were active in 1844. Your thoughts?

 

[BioProfessor]

Not bent over or wires running through it, not a seal. Have you checked for a Walrus?

Daryl

 

[woody50]

Thanks Daryl.

Although there are no wires running through it I still believe it could be a lead seal, only not a type that we are accustomed to.

Next to the extending loop seems to be a piece of lead that has been compressed against the body of the 'seal' (red arrows). That piece could have been part of the loop. If someone first ran wire or something through the loop, then attached BOTH ends of the wire permanently something, the wire would be 'sealed'. To get the seal off you would have to pull the 'seal' off of the wire, which would break the loop. Pulling against the main body of the 'seal', instead of the loop could break the loop, but at the same time compressing part of the loop against the main body.

There appears to be, pretty close to the loop a place where the lead has been compressed or stamped, sort of looks like pressed with a sort of pliers or so. That could be a way to close the seal (yellow arrows). I don't understand what the function of the stamped part is, but since the 'seal' has not been cleaned I can't tell. Also I can't see the sides of the object. The stamped area appears to be a place where the 'seal' would be 'sealed', I have seen that sort of thing on some lead seals.

KEVO, can you make a photo of the side of the object? By the sealed part and the loop in anycase. You could brush the dirt off with a soft brush and water first, then its easier to see if the part where the 'pliers stamp' is was split or not.

What I don't understand is the purpose of the stamped area (which should close the seal). But you could also imagine that when the dirt is removed we might see more.

Another thing is that that the CPT stamps on the object, appear to be made with a powerful tool, not a hand stamping tool. On the round CPT stamp the lead looks like it squished out of the stamping tool, and the straight CPT stamp looks like it would take some pressure to make it, but of course there are strong hand tools also out there.

 

[BioProfessor]

I was just putting together what the description was - not in two pieces and no place for wires to be run through it. If it doesn't have either of those things, I can't see how it could be "Sealed" to something. Now if there is a loop for a wire to run through and that wire is attached to something, this would fit with the description but I would not call that a seal. I would call that a "Tag." A seal is placed on something in a way that any tampering will be evident. A tag is placed on something to identify something.

Just the way I see it. Or in this case, don't see it.

Daryl

 

[woody50]

I was just putting together what the description was - not in two pieces and no place for wires to be run through it. If it doesn't have either of those things, I can't see how it could be "Sealed" to something. Now if there is a loop for a wire to run through and that wire is attached to something, this would fit with the description but I would not call that a seal. I would call that a "Tag." A seal is placed on something in a way that any tampering will be evident. A tag is placed on something to identify something.
Just the way I see it. Or in this case, don't see it.
Daryl

Jeeze Daryl, don't you ever sleep! Here it's 6:15, by you just passed midnight! And I am just getting up! But thanks for your comments....

I agree that maybe 'seal' could not be the correct word, tag 'could' be better, but I would like to see more photos when the thing is cleaned up and photos of the sides are made. I don't really see how KEVO can say it's one piece with so much dirt on the sides, then you cannot see if there is a split on the sides (maybe it was made in two flaps with the loop holding them together).

But I am sticking to seal at this moment until I get better photos.....

 

[BioProfessor]

Sleep? How can I sleep when there are problems to be solved?

I have found things that look like they are one piece but then I discover they are in fact two pieces pressed neatly together. Remove the little bent over piece and it just doesn't look like two pieces pressed together. I had a seal that for a long time I thought was a lead token. Not until I got it under high enough magnification could I see the seam around it.

As far as this piece goes, I think it is a seal and when it gets cleaned up, the groove/seam will show up. So I agree with you but if it's not in two pieces?

And why aren't you working instead of dinking around on the computer?

Daryl

 

[woody50]

Sleep? How can I sleep when there are problems to be solved?
Yea, you have a point there for sure!

I have found things that look like they are one piece but then I discover they are in fact two pieces pressed neatly together. Remove the little bent over piece and it just doesn't look like two pieces pressed together. I had a seal that for a long time I thought was a lead token. Not until I got it under high enough magnification could I see the seam around it.

I agree with you about this, I also had quite a few lead tokens that turned into seals when I looked carefully.

As far as this piece goes, I think it is a seal and when it gets cleaned up, the groove/seam will show up. So I agree with you but if it's not in two pieces?

I agree also about the bent over piece, or the loop. It does not look like two pieces bent over, but then again it does not have to be in two pieces. Maybe it was made in a special sort of die where the loop remains solid, and the rest is poured into two 'leaves' or something like that....That's what I am saying, it's not the types that we have found, it's different.

But have to wait for what he says I guess, and better photos.


And why aren't you working instead of dinking around on the computer?

Working I have a wife for that Daryl !! She's not get 65 (got about 7 years to go) so she has to do 100% of the work around here, I can only metal detect (and of course drink beer). That was a personal requirement from the government here when I retired at 55 with almost full pay! YOU ARE living in the WRONG country !

Daryl

 

[Kevo_DFX]

I've cleaned this up and added some side pictures. It seems you were right, there is a seam, so this makes it a lead seal, right?

How would I find out what it was for, and can I safely assume that 1844 is a date?

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[BioProfessor]

Lead Seal - Most likely

Find use - Research, Research, Research

1844 Date - Probably not. Some sort of ID number better assumption

Daryl

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Heres a British link on cloth and bag lead seals if you want to look. I dont think it has a search option. http://ourpasthistory.com/Gallery/bagseals/SAVE0129

 

[woody50]

Heres a British link on cloth and bag lead seals if you want to look. I dont think it has a search option. http://ourpasthistory.com/Gallery/bagseals/SAVE0129

Hi Hunter, thanks for the link. It was almost good, to see the seals you can better go to page 1
http://ourpasthistory.com/Gallery/bagseals?page=1

 

[woody50]

Lead Seal - Most likely
Find use - Research, Research, Research
1844 Date - Probably not. Some sort of ID number better assumption
Daryl

Yes I agree about the date, it is most likely an ID. Very rarely do you find a seal with a real date

 

[woody50]

I've cleaned this up and added some side pictures. It seems you were right, there is a seam, so this makes it a lead seal, right?
How would I find out what it was for, and can I safely assume that 1844 is a date?
Thanks,
Kevin

Hi Kevin. Yes then it is a seal, not a bag seal but for some other purpose. I mentioned as Daryl did that I don't think the 1844 is a date.

I want to thank you for your great photos, they are clean and sharp. Just great work. Can you explain how you made them and with
what camera (macro?).

You can see now where the wire ran through the seal, and I believe to see how they sealed it, by crimping the tab part with a sort of
pliers or something, sealing the wire. I sort of think the other marks on the seal were not stamped onto the seal in the field, more than likely stamped
into the seal after construction, or even as a part of the mold. Its a very unique seal, I just have not seen something like it.

 

[Kevo_DFX]

Sure! Thanks for the compliments.

It is a Canon Power Shot SD1100 IS Digital ELPH

Here is a link:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=145&modelid=16347

It's my Girlfriends camera, and she took the pictures. SHe used the Digital Macro Setting, and had it about 3 feet under my livingroom lamp.

It has some other cool settings too, she's been taking some pretty interesting pictures since Christmas.

Hope this helps,
Kevo

 

[Kevo_DFX]

Additionally, this does *LOOK* later than 1844 to me. I think it may have belonged to some sort of transportation or utility or something like that.

AT&T stands for "American Telephone and Telegraph", and it seems to me I have heard of a CPT, or "Central Pole and Telegraph" I also located a CPT foundry a county away from me that did soem work during world war 2. I think I may be along the right lines with one of the. Off to do some more research.

Thanks for the help everyone!

Kevo