Small Nashville museum wants you to know why it is returning artifacts to Mexico

dognose

Silver Member
Apr 15, 2009
3,445
9,592
Indiana
Detector(s) used
Fisher F70
TRAVIS LOLLER
July 12, 2024
1720865801488.png


NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) ā€” When Bonnie Seymour took a job as assistant curator of Nashvilleā€™s Parthenon museum, one of the first things she did was to look through the collections. Among paintings by American artists and memorabilia from Tennesseeā€™s 1897 Centennial Exposition ā€” the event for which the Parthenon was built ā€” she found a random assortment of pre-Columbian pottery from Mexico.

The artifacts had almost no identifying information, and Seymour knew next to nothing about them. But she knew they did not belong in a Nashville storage room.

ā€œMy first thought was, well, itā€™s going to get repatriated. Itā€™s got to go home,ā€ she said during a recent interview.

That goal led to an exhibit, ā€œ Repatriation and Its Impact,ā€ along with the discovery of the collectionā€™s strange origins, and even a quest to change the cityā€™s charter. It all started with a tax deduction.

Colima dogs​

It was the 1960s and Rich Montgomery says his father, an Oregon doctor, and some friends were looking for ways to lower their income taxes. Somehow they came upon the idea of using museum donations for deductions. In order to acquire objects to donate, they sent a college-aged Rich and his brother to Mexico in a Chevy Suburban they had tricked out for extra storage.

Rich had spent a year of high school in Mazatlan and was familiar with artifacts called Colima dogs ā€” pottery representations of small, chubby hairless dogs that were often placed in tombs. As the name implies, they are associated with the Colima region. That gave the Montgomery brothers a place to start.



ā€œSo we we headed straight into Colima and we started asking about these items,ā€ he said. ā€œYouā€™d get on these dirt roads and wander up into the hills, and down into the valleys, and along the rivers, and come to these little pueblos and just ask around for this stuff. People would come up with it, and we would buy them.ā€

The pieces they bought included figurines and ocarinas. They had little apparent value to the local farmers ā€” Montgomery said the people considered them junk and were happy to sell them for a few pesos each. He also emphasizes that they did not try to smuggle them out.

ā€œAt no point did we ever think or feel that weā€™re doing anything illegal,ā€ he said. ā€œWe would show this stuff to the Mexican authorities as we left the country, and those guys could care less about it. And when we came into the US, we would show it to the customs people here on this side. And the rules back then were very clear. If itā€™s an antique, itā€™s over 100 years old, there was no duty on it. Off weā€™d go.ā€

Repatriation​

Mexico had laws, even back then, to prevent artifacts from leaving the country, but they were not evenly enforced, said Javier Diaz de Leon, the Mexican consul general in Atlanta who has been working with Seymour on the repatriation. In recent years, people have become more aware of the ethical issues around keeping artifacts that were taken from other countries without proper authorization, Diaz de Leon said.

ā€œItā€™s a greater conscience,ā€ he said. ā€œPeople come to us, are coming to us, all over the world, voluntarily saying, ā€˜I got this. It came to our hands. But we donā€™t think we should have it. We think we belongs to the Mexican people.ā€™ And that is the sort of transition that we are very happy about.ā€

The consul general has nothing but praise for Seymour.

When she began this effort two years ago, the Parthenon had no policy for deaccession ā€” removing an item from a collection. Meanwhile, Nashvilleā€™s charter required the artifacts to be treated as surplus property, which is normally either redistributed within Metro government or sold at auction. Seymour worked with council members on an ordinance to allow their return to Mexico. It was approved in May, but it was a one-time fix. Her next step is to revise the charter.

Meanwhile, she hopes the collection will find a more appropriate home at the National Institute of Anthropology and History in Mexico City where it will fit into the institutionā€™s mission.

ā€œHopefully, theyā€™re going to research them and put them on display,ā€ she said.

While she is sad to see the collection go, Seymour has commissioned a 3-D printed model of a Colima dog they can use to continue to tell the story. Ultimately, she said repatriation is simply the right thing to do. At the Parthenon ā€œitā€™s not being utilized. Itā€™s a waste.ā€

ā€œOutside the Parthenonā€™s missionā€​

Montgomery has no idea how his father got connected with the cityā€™s Parthenon, which operates a small museum inside a full-scale replica of the ancient Greek temple in Nashvilleā€™s Centennial Park. However it happened, the museum now has 255 pre-Columbian pieces donated by Montgomery and someone named Edgar York, whom Seymour knows even less about.

That lack of information is part of the point in the exhibit, which displays a selection of the collectionā€™s small adornments, zoomorphic images, ceramic pots, musical instruments and hand tools with only generic labels, their exact provenance unknown. It notes that research by Vanderbilt University students in the 1990s raised questions about the authenticity of some pieces. A 2014 review determined they were ā€œoutside the Parthenonā€™s mission.ā€

Some people can have a finders-keepers attitude toward repatriation efforts, while others blame museums for holding onto artifacts looted from other countries, so Seymour wanted to be very transparent.


ā€œMuseums arenā€™t evil institutions trying to keep peopleā€™s stuff away from them. We are actually trying to figure out what to do,ā€ she said.


SOURCE
https://apnews.com/article/mexican-...henon-museum-b10184efe00dfd1372bd8edfbc5968d2
 

Upvote 4
I thought this line was especially interesting because Ben Thompson told me that he and another well-known collector had obtained amazing relics from museums when they were selling surplus.

"Nashvilleā€™s charter required the artifacts to be treated as surplus property, which is normally either redistributed within Metro government or sold at auction."
 

Well, letā€™s get the British to return all the Hopewell platform pipes they have. They belong to the people of the US, right? They were purchased at auction in the US, and it was a large collection . The pipes were ā€œ lootedā€ from hopewell mounds in OH, some by arkies.šŸ¤” A Brit won the bid, but that donā€™t matter anymore. This repatriation thing is getting out of hand. Who owns the past?? Just like the Elgin marbles, the British museum will likely keep the pipes. And when the gov comes for my Indian artifacts, Iā€™ll take a hammer to them before Iā€™ll give them to anyone.
 

I read about half of it and stopped. This whole thing is a big sham. I'd say more but don't want to get into the politics and get a timeout here.

To be short, to many people in the US went woke and became a bunch of yellow belly apologists...
 

Man this generation has gone so woke. We go war with people these days shoot them then give the a care package.

Those items will be in my personal collection by Monday.
:laughing7:
If one just has to look at every news source that ran this story and it pretty well explains it Washington Post, NPR, to name a couple, all the same leaning.
Oh she fits the part.

Screen Shot 2024-07-13 at 8.55.36 AM.png
 

TRAVIS LOLLER
July 12, 2024
View attachment 2158631

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) ā€” When Bonnie Seymour took a job as assistant curator of Nashvilleā€™s Parthenon museum, one of the first things she did was to look through the collections. Among paintings by American artists and memorabilia from Tennesseeā€™s 1897 Centennial Exposition ā€” the event for which the Parthenon was built ā€” she found a random assortment of pre-Columbian pottery from Mexico.

The artifacts had almost no identifying information, and Seymour knew next to nothing about them. But she knew they did not belong in a Nashville storage room.

ā€œMy first thought was, well, itā€™s going to get repatriated. Itā€™s got to go home,ā€ she said during a recent interview.

That goal led to an exhibit, ā€œ Repatriation and Its Impact,ā€ along with the discovery of the collectionā€™s strange origins, and even a quest to change the cityā€™s charter. It all started with a tax deduction.

Colima dogs​

It was the 1960s and Rich Montgomery says his father, an Oregon doctor, and some friends were looking for ways to lower their income taxes. Somehow they came upon the idea of using museum donations for deductions. In order to acquire objects to donate, they sent a college-aged Rich and his brother to Mexico in a Chevy Suburban they had tricked out for extra storage.

Rich had spent a year of high school in Mazatlan and was familiar with artifacts called Colima dogs ā€” pottery representations of small, chubby hairless dogs that were often placed in tombs. As the name implies, they are associated with the Colima region. That gave the Montgomery brothers a place to start.



ā€œSo we we headed straight into Colima and we started asking about these items,ā€ he said. ā€œYouā€™d get on these dirt roads and wander up into the hills, and down into the valleys, and along the rivers, and come to these little pueblos and just ask around for this stuff. People would come up with it, and we would buy them.ā€

The pieces they bought included figurines and ocarinas. They had little apparent value to the local farmers ā€” Montgomery said the people considered them junk and were happy to sell them for a few pesos each. He also emphasizes that they did not try to smuggle them out.

ā€œAt no point did we ever think or feel that weā€™re doing anything illegal,ā€ he said. ā€œWe would show this stuff to the Mexican authorities as we left the country, and those guys could care less about it. And when we came into the US, we would show it to the customs people here on this side. And the rules back then were very clear. If itā€™s an antique, itā€™s over 100 years old, there was no duty on it. Off weā€™d go.ā€

Repatriation​

Mexico had laws, even back then, to prevent artifacts from leaving the country, but they were not evenly enforced, said Javier Diaz de Leon, the Mexican consul general in Atlanta who has been working with Seymour on the repatriation. In recent years, people have become more aware of the ethical issues around keeping artifacts that were taken from other countries without proper authorization, Diaz de Leon said.

ā€œItā€™s a greater conscience,ā€ he said. ā€œPeople come to us, are coming to us, all over the world, voluntarily saying, ā€˜I got this. It came to our hands. But we donā€™t think we should have it. We think we belongs to the Mexican people.ā€™ And that is the sort of transition that we are very happy about.ā€

The consul general has nothing but praise for Seymour.

When she began this effort two years ago, the Parthenon had no policy for deaccession ā€” removing an item from a collection. Meanwhile, Nashvilleā€™s charter required the artifacts to be treated as surplus property, which is normally either redistributed within Metro government or sold at auction. Seymour worked with council members on an ordinance to allow their return to Mexico. It was approved in May, but it was a one-time fix. Her next step is to revise the charter.

Meanwhile, she hopes the collection will find a more appropriate home at the National Institute of Anthropology and History in Mexico City where it will fit into the institutionā€™s mission.

ā€œHopefully, theyā€™re going to research them and put them on display,ā€ she said.

While she is sad to see the collection go, Seymour has commissioned a 3-D printed model of a Colima dog they can use to continue to tell the story. Ultimately, she said repatriation is simply the right thing to do. At the Parthenon ā€œitā€™s not being utilized. Itā€™s a waste.ā€

ā€œOutside the Parthenonā€™s missionā€​

Montgomery has no idea how his father got connected with the cityā€™s Parthenon, which operates a small museum inside a full-scale replica of the ancient Greek temple in Nashvilleā€™s Centennial Park. However it happened, the museum now has 255 pre-Columbian pieces donated by Montgomery and someone named Edgar York, whom Seymour knows even less about.

That lack of information is part of the point in the exhibit, which displays a selection of the collectionā€™s small adornments, zoomorphic images, ceramic pots, musical instruments and hand tools with only generic labels, their exact provenance unknown. It notes that research by Vanderbilt University students in the 1990s raised questions about the authenticity of some pieces. A 2014 review determined they were ā€œoutside the Parthenonā€™s mission.ā€

Some people can have a finders-keepers attitude toward repatriation efforts, while others blame museums for holding onto artifacts looted from other countries, so Seymour wanted to be very transparent.


ā€œMuseums arenā€™t evil institutions trying to keep peopleā€™s stuff away from them. We are actually trying to figure out what to do,ā€ she said.


SOURCE
https://apnews.com/article/mexican-...henon-museum-b10184efe00dfd1372bd8edfbc5968d2
These items were bought & paid for in arms length transactions (they probably way overpaid), and passed through customs. There is absolutely no case here for repatriation - other than to garner "woke" suck points.
 

This is a true story. About opposite what happened in the original article. A friend of mine was a 25 yr lifer in the army. Army airborne, paratrooper, 3rd special forces, NCO. Desert Storm, etc.
A hard core artifact hunter, he had a chance to deploy to Honduras for 6 mos. He went and started getting permission from farmers near the base to hunt artifacts. He befriended one farm family in particular. The man dug wells by hand for a living. He made $40 a week. The farmers young son followed Duke around in the fields, and he showed the kid how to pressure flake obsidian flakes, which were everywhere. The poor farmer didnā€™t have electricity. It was available, but they had to pay for the utility poles to their farm to get the electricity. The cost was out of their reach. Duke had an idea. He asked the farmer if he would like to make $40 every Sat, the same as his weekly wages, and have a lunch included. He didnā€™t have to do anything. What?!! Of course! He thought it was impossible. So, Duke brings 4 bored soldiers stuck in Honduras to the farm on Sat to hunt arrowheads. $10 each, plus they had to bring lunch for their ā€œguideā€. It worked out well. The soldiers found artifacts in the fields and were happy. Word got around and even more came every Sat. Soon, the farmer was able to pay for the utility poles and his family had electricity for the first time. To say they were grateful to my friend would be an understatement. Duke ended up doing two 6 mos tours there. Before he left, the farmer had a gift for him. He dug up a dozen pieces of Mayan pottery and gave them to him. The local people evidently knew where things were hidden. A military flight out of Honduras and he was home free. The pottery is stunning, and was well earned in my opinion.
 

It is a bit of a charged subject, my thought was; say this line of reasoning plays out fullyā€¦ would I have to go to Greece to see Greek artifacts? Egypt? Mexico? Musems would be dramatically different. at best keepers of local history. And the line about 3d printing, I know you already get some of that especially with dinosaurs and such but the magic is in seeing the real deal, I wouldnā€™t have any interest in seeing a bunch of reproductions.
 

If one just has to look at every news source that ran this story and it pretty well explains it Washington Post, NPR, to name a couple, all the same leaning.
Oh she fits the part.

View attachment 2158644
I do not know what culture she appropriated with those beads and clothes but guarantee they do not want it back ! šŸ˜‚
 

Yep..this "repatriating" historic items to their native culture has become all the rage.

For me, the whole purpose of a museum is to have a place where people can go to see and learn about other times, and other cultures. If I just wanted to see pictures or cheap representations of those objects, I can find that on the web. We go to a museum to see real dinosaur bones, real items from historical native cultures, etc.

Not going to risk my life going to a small out-of-the-way museum in some remote Mexican town just to see their ancient pottery, but I would enjoy the hell out of seeing it in a well-done exhibit at a museum.

When I was returning from Israel in 1999, I brought back a number of broken pottery fragments that I collected around the "Horns of Hattin", and Israeli customs said it was fine.
 

This is why you never ever leave any type of collection to a museum.They steal ,sell it,swap it or it gets destroyed in a flood or fire.
Google museums that have flooded
 

Please remember our rules on politics....thanksšŸ‘
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top