- Jan 1, 2013
- 2,657
- 5,428
- Detector(s) used
- Tesoro Vaquero, Whites MXT, Vsat, GMT, 5900Di Pro, Minelab GPX 5000, GPXtreme, 2200SD, Excalibur 1000!
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
A long time ago in a land far far away, when dredging was allowed in California, this was written on the 49erMike site at the top of the Dahlke forum. I found it today and thought it was important enough to post it here in its entirety. Yes it's 10 years old now but lots of good voices were here on the net even back then 
This first piece was by Zooka, a long time friend of mine.
Reed Lukens
The Lukens Gold Mining Company, established in 1903
Subject: "Should you buy a 4B?" First topic
Mesg #1140 "Should you buy a 4B?"
Author Zooka
Date Sun Nov-06-05 06:47 PM
Message
Well Reed went back and added a very important postscript to an old message, and I thought it was important enough that I want to sort of give it its own post. THere are a bunch of good posts by him on the subject of his 4B but this one is sort of the summary post.
Reed has very high, professional standards for his gold mining equipment, and as a multi - generational California placer miner there is none of the hobbyist in him. Quick background, he bought a 4B last spring and spent the summer fighting with it to get it to work the way he wanted to. Here are his thoughts on the dredge:
The Dahlke works fine now with the mods that I’ve been forced to make and hopefully I will be able to talk Bob into adding just a few more pounds to make this dredge right from day one. Being that the o.d. on the hose is only 4½” if you do decide to use 6” PVC then you will need some duct tape. I think cutting a piece of 4” PVC in half and then clamping it on might work ok but just going to the muffler shop and buying a piece of 4” would be the best. The gold recovery of the Dahlke is as good as can be expected with a single stage sluice and for here in California I don’t see a need to change it. It was catching fine gold ok but there was a definite loss of the super fine powder gold that I didn’t see in it at all. But without doing a test there is no way to know for sure where the loss is going to be. I’m sure glad that Bob is recalling this bent jet because after just 5 hours of work mine has already started to show a large bulge in the bend and if used for a couple of weeks straight would just blow out before the weeks over. I’ve never seen a new jet warp so fast.
I also told Bob about the problem I have with the foot valve being so light and I hope that he moves the tie down for it up into place to hold it straight down. My foot valve is so light that it is always riding up on top of the water sucking air unless I weight it or tie it down so I’m going to change it out with a metal one to hopefully eliminate most of this problem. We forgot to check the pressure difference using a larger foot valve but I will do this the next time I go out and let you know.
The Proline damper that I put on the Micro 4B is the best for this dredge being that the flare opening is only 9½” into a 20” box. You need to have a heavy damper to stop the slurry from being blown over the riffles. This one thing is why you see real good recovery in my Dredges.
I need to put a longer damper on my 4” Proline also but it works ok with the stock one that I have on it for now. Personally I did see a difference in the size of fine gold recovered between the two dredges but it wasn’t a test to see which was better. They were there so that people could dredge. The Proline is bigger but it is a better production dredge all the way around with enough proven air for 5 people; where the Dahlke is a better small light weight back packer that can be carried into any small stream by two people in one trip. The 9hp Honda motor with the HP500 pump and Gast 263 compressor on my Proline weighs more than the complete Dahlke Micro4B. We didn’t even put the sluice extension on the Proline which makes it about 10 feet long but it doesn’t loose much powdered gold anyway. All of the gold was in the upper ½ of the box with no visible gold in the bottom ½ at all.
I don’t have a problem moving the Proline because I don’t have to worry about it sinking so I just tie the rope on it and drag it up stream or wherever without having to watch it. Like Dave said… lmao… he sank the Dahlke but what he meant to say was that he didn’t sink the Proline. I would take the Proline to the Middle fork of the American where I usually dredge without hesitation due to the fast deep water but I could not take the Dahlke because the water is too fast for it and it would roll over or submarine. I would carry the Dahlke into my claim way up on the Bear River in my quad in one trip where it would take 2 trips and a lot of extra time with my Proline. I can run my Proline fine with the 6.5 Honda but I prefer to be able to compete with a 8hp 5” dredge as far as overall production. Basically like Dave said between the two dredges its apples to oranges. They are two different dredges for two different applications and this is why I need both. Will the Proline move a lot more material in the same amount of time as the Dahlke while still retaining the powder gold? Yes it’s roughly 1000gpm (over 600gpm on the Dahlke) and designed to do that much more work with no plug ups. I have taken the Proline and let it ride through rapids so fast that the top of the water looked like corrugated roofing with no problem while holding me up on the way down stream. The Dahlke could not do this in any way shape or form with out turning upside down. Could I carry the Dahlke Down a ½ mile of steep cliff and still be able to get it out fairly easily? Yes.
This couldn’t be done easily with the complete Proline.
With the Dahlke I need to run the stock Proline suction tip on it for adequate suction where if I ran this tip on the Proline it would break my fingers so the Proline has a swivel nozzle on it. On any over under set up you need to check and clean off the punch plate every time you gas up. The Proline mods that I did are still in the experimental stage but it worked great as a stock dredge right out of the factory. I need to add some 3/8 punch plate over the first few riffles of the top section for another classification now with the over under to take the place of the wave classifier but it’s not a priority at this time. The next time I take it out I’m going to try it with the 6.5 Honda again.
Apples to Oranges or Ferrari to Subaru Outback, there really is no need for comparison because they are built for two different purposes and I own the best of both worlds when it comes to dredges.
All in all they are both great dredges after some work on the Dahlke but the one basic reason that I would go with the Proline is the motor. It sure is nice to be able to start a motor on the first pull with the GX series. The GC series is frustrating to say the least and it took way to many pulls to start it every time.
Now for the Dahlke summary…
If I were to buy the Dahlke straight from the factory right now I would buy
1. The bare bones dredge frame itself with the stock riffles.
2. The 4hp GX series Honda motor with the DP 250pump.
3. The Air tank.
4. The tri-jet or whatever straight jet that he will make for it
I would NOT buy
1. The GC series 5hp motor
2. The non breathing quality blue Kmart air hose.
3. Definitely not the bent jet.
4. The bent nozzle.
5. The air pump because of the $100.00 price difference over a T80.
6. The air pump’s pulleys or belts.
7. The damper.
8. The foot valve.
9. Or the silicone full face mask that you can buy for over $50 less anywhere else.
I will be returning the Damper, the Bent Jet, the Bent Nozzle, and the blue air hose to Bob and though I think I deserve it, I expect no money to be returned. If I hadn’t used the face mask and thrown away the packaging I would have returned it also for the $150 I paid for it before I knew.
Below is a copy of the Dahlke add from this months ICMJ. Notice that the price in the add states that it is $2500 with the air compressor.
I paid $2945 full retail from him and I had it picked up there. He would not come down in price even with all of the trimmings. I tried to talk him down and told him in advance that I would be buying it for evaluation and that he should double check everything for the best results. He assured me that it was ready for evaluation when I had it picked up. Whether he knew what kind of an evaluation I ment or not I guess was the key issue nut i told him that it would be for the public. The $445 dollar difference is a bit steep and I don’t think that it is worth more money then either the 4” Proline or Keene. I paid extra for the air tank, air hose, regulator, and the full-face mask. But when I buy a complete Keene or a Proline from a dealer, they give me the air tank, breathing hoses and a regulator for free. Right now if you buy a new Keene 4” 3 stage with a 6.5Hp Intec which is better than the Honda GC series; with a T80 ready to go it’s going to cost you $2700 with out shipping. And they will throw in the regulator, air hose, tank, and a harness for free. The Proline 4" dredge w/5.5hp Honda, HP350 pump & T-80 costs $2660.00 or the 4" dredge w/6.5hp Honda, HP400 pump & T-80 costs $2795.00.
For the money I think $2300 complete out the door with air would be more of a fair price for the Dahlke just because of the difference in the quality of the materials. At Northerntool.com the GC series Honda that Bob is selling on his dredge costs $210.00. The 6.5hp GX series Honda engine that comes standard on the new Keene or Proline costs around $545 from them. Northern doesn’t sell this motor yet. Dahlke charges $350 for his air compressor which works fine for one person but has no reputation yet and Keene sells the well proven T80 for only $245. Maybe Bobs is worth the extra $110.00 but I don’t see much difference so far and they are both single piston compressors.
The thin damper that Bob puts on his dredge basically serves no purpose other than for looks. The damper that Dave is raving about on my 4B is actually the stock ¼” thick Proline damper from my 6” that I cut down and cut the slits into for the 20” wide Dahlke box.
The miners moss that I had to add to the Dahlke Micro 4B is the same miners moss that comes stock in the Proline dredge.
The Dahlke is a good dredge but it needs a reliable easy starting motor. These are the things that I would do different when I ordered a new Dahlke if I would have known what I was getting before hand.
Look at the pics and you can see how well it works now compared to when I first got it. The air system is from Keene. So I now have a customized Dahlke dredge rebuilt with Keene and Proline parts. Notice how close to the surface the foot valve is floating even though it is tied down. I added a few pounds to the Dahlke but now it works.
********
"It's October now and I saw that the pictures were gone from this post so I reloaded them.
< http://49ermike.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=197&topic_id=1033&mesg_id=1033&page= >
After everything was done and I got the Dahlke running great I ended up selling it this month because of everything that I went through in order to make this a great dredge. It is a great dredge now, but I just have enough bad feelings that I feel the need to sell it and get it far away from me. This is an important thread and I read through all of my old posts from May until now to remember what all I had gone through with this litle dredge this summer. As good of a dredge as it ended up being in the last days of this season, I am sure glad to be rid of it and all of the headaches that came with it. It does run great now but the bad feelings and loss of time that I had working on this dredge has just left me with a huge sinking feeling. I may buy another in time but for now re-reading these posts has given me a stomache ache. It took almost all summer to get this dredge running great and it finally came together when Bob sent the new powerjet in time to run it for a few days at the end of the season. The dredge took almost the whole season to get completed and in good running condition from the factory and I wish it well now that I am done with it. It is a great dredge now but when I got it, it was a rotten lemon. While I worked on this dredge I ended up changing it from a real bad lemon into a real gold dredge and I hope that Bob learned a few things about dredge building also. Hopefully he will never try to cut costs the way he did on my dredge ever again because it is very doubtful right now that I will ever be a Dahlke fan or buy directly from him again. It hurts bad enough that it will take me years to forget all of the hastles that came with this micro4b. Anyone who is considering buying new from the factory should go back to my first post in May and read everything that I and others went through this summer and then think twice. Now that he has the powerjet, the dredge has one of the biggest problems solved from the factory but there are still plenty of other issues that will come with a new one.
Reed Lukens
Replies to this topic
Mesg #1141 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?"
Author Zooka
In response to Reply # 0
Whew! As always, Mr. Lukens pulls no punches.
All of that being said, I also want to note that there are a number of other folks here on the forum who have used their 4Bs with great success and been totally satisfied with them ( the ones without the bent jet! That was a disaster). You can find their posts here too.
I think the chief thing that sets the 4B apart from the competition is its portability. And that portability is the thing that causes many of its shortcomings!
But if you are a solo dredger especially, and only working weekends, and maybe not in the best of physical shape, I think the Dahlke really shines brightest in that scenario. Its ease of storage, transport, and movement to and from the water are just in a class all by itself. I've moved Keene and Proline 4 inchers, and if there are 2 people it isnt bad. But for 1 they are a lot more work.
My thanks to Reed for his sharing of all the hard work and thought he put into fine tuning his 4B! We can all profit from his experience.
One last lesson: Resale value. Reed sold his in what, 2 days? He took about a 25 to 30% loss on price, after a season's use. Try and sell a 1 - season used Keene or Proline that quick for that little of a loss. Dredges lose a lot of value just "driving them off the lot", like new cars.
IP Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top
Mesg #1142 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?"
Author srclark
In response to Reply # 1
Zooka your right about Reed not pulling any punches!! i've never met him but he does seem to have quite a background as a dredger. but, i really like my 4B. i think his major problem was the bent jet. i put a heavier damper on mine. i think i may need to find some kinda of different material other than a mudflap for a truck. it did make a difference i may put the stock damper back on just to double check the performance. i think it's hard to compare apples with oranges each machine is different. and, each has it's own learning curve. who ever bought i hope they use it and find lots of gold. or, if there like me living in the southeast just get out and have fun looking for gold....sammy
Mesg #1143 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Reed Lukens
In response to Reply # 1
Zooka’s statement.
“One last lesson: Resale value. Reed sold his in what, 2 days? He took about a 25 to 30% loss on price, after a season's use. Try and sell a 1 - season used Keene or Proline that quick for that little of a loss. Dredges lose a lot of value just "driving them off the lot", like new cars.”
Actually I put up the add for a week at $2900 with two extra 15 foot hoses and it didn’t sell. Then I put it up for another week at $2500 with the one extra hose and it didn’t sell. Then I put it up for a 3rd week for $2500 and added two wet suits and a weight belt. Then someone who wasn’t a member found it the next week by doing a search for Dahlke. If I had gotten a full season of use out of it $2500 would have been too high of a price. Thanks to all of the problems with it, I only got about 4 days use out of it myself all summer plus the days that you used it while you were here with your tri-jet that you brought off of yours. It is basically still a new dredge with only 2 days use on the new powerjet, which took away too much of the season to get here. In no way shape or form did I get a season out of it. In fact if I had only had the micro4b, this season would have been a total loss. If you figure out the cost with everything that I had to do to a $2945 dollar dredge then adding moss, a real damper, a different Keene air set up that was legal, a nozzle, and then the suction hose off of my Proline because when Bob sent the new powerjet he didn’t send a one piece hose, and the $150 I paid my buddy to pick it up, you will end up with maybe $3700..... Anyway I figure it was a huge loss of not only money but also time for a new dredge.
If you bought a new micro 4b now from Dahlke with the powerjet and no air it would be ok for a small stream. If you don’t know why I say “ Don’t Buy A Dahlke Air System” then go back and read up on what I found out about the Dahlke air system.
I basically bought this dredge to take the place of my 4” Keene submersible because I wanted the better recovery that you can get with a surface dredge. But now after using it, I think that for the weight and dependability, the Dahlke is no comparison to my sub set up. I can put my weight belt, anchor, lunch, gas and everything that I need for a back pack trip onto my Keene sub and haul it upstream and it weighs a lot less than the 4b. I tried this with the Dahlke and my weight belt alone was enough to sink it.
As far as carrying it in over a Proline I choose the Proline because one person still has to break down the Dahlke to carry it in comfortably and it is more awkward to carry then either the Keene or the Proline. If you are an invalid I would buy the Keene sub hands down but for moderately disabled people to fit people I would stay with a reputable dealer that doesn’t sell automotive grade air hose on his dredge while telling them that it is an excellent quality breathing hose.
Man I was so revved up about this dredge that I called and bought the best that he had believing that it would compare to my Proline. I told him that I was going to write an article about it before hand and to make sure that everything was as good or better than normal before I picked it up. This is what really gets me the most. Do I really want to write an honest product update on the 2005 Dahlke Micro4B for the ICMJ after my experience? No Way! You have to realize that the Dahlke dredge I bought is no longer a Dahlke. It is now a good working unit with Keene and Proline parts added on to make it work. All in all with more than I wanted to say, the stock 2005 Dahlke Micro 4b from the factory was a big two thumbs down. Let’s hope that the 2006 model without air will hopefully be a winner.
This Dahlke was the fourteenth dredge that I either have bought or built myself in the last 23 years. It is the 6th brand new dredge that I have bought and the only dredge that I have ever sold because of ongoing quality issues. I still have my 5 other dredges of various sizes ranging from 2½” to 8” that I continue to use year after year. I have found Keene or Proline to be the best quality dredge to buy and they are using the best top quality parts available and selling theirs for roughly the same price as a Dahlke which in my book should sell for about 25% less. You get more bang for your buck along with excellent floating dependability with Keene or Proline. I can see why Bob wants to sell the micro line and I can also see why nobody has bought into it. What it boils down to is that he has a dredge that right now is ahead of its time. When the proper super-lightweight 4hp motor comes out for it in a few years this dredge will be primo but this year it was a lemon.
Mesg #1146 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Zooka
In response to Reply # 3
Huh, I guess I missed it in the For Sale forum, I dont go there much. I just saw it on the 28th, posted about it being for sale, and it was sold on the 29th...
See my earlier posts about the equipment trailer I use to float stuff like belts, gas, prybars and such with the dredge. Inner tube with a plastic bin inside it.
When you talk about the "Dahlke air system" being bad, what are you referring to? I know the new model compressor works fine, I used it with my son, the both of us. It needed a little smaller pulley for 2 people at once, but it was designed to work at those resulting higher rpms, the larger pulley just puts less load on that 5 horse for its usual mode, solo dredging. The 5 gallon pop syrup can as air tank works beautifully. THe only gripe I recall you having with the air besides being marginal for 2 divers was with the air hose itself.
And as for the resale value, I've watched a lot of dredges get sold used on forums and on ebay, many that were in great shape and with few hours, and yours brought in more than the Keene or Proline units I've seen that had few hours on them. Someone was willing to pay just about what he could have for a new Proline or Keene for that little used dredge, and that speaks well for its resale value. You as a seller might value all the time and money you put into modifying it, but for buyers that can frequently be a turn-off, like the 1 year old jacked-up pickup truck with fancy chrome wheels and 44 inch mud tires and engine modifications and such - it limits the audience for resale.
Mesg #1147 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Rusty_Happy_Camp
In response to Reply # 3
I have followed this thread from the start. I use a Dahlke poly 4 and enjoy the freedom of movement it gives me. Other than my Bazooka I have never seen a more portable dredge. I too have had a bunch of dredges both new and used. I can guarantee that I lost an easy 50% on the last new Keene mini 6 that I sold after trying to sell it for about 3 months. I deal in new and used dredging equipment and Honda engines. In that capacity I talk to and see several hundred dredgers a year that have all types of equipment. The one thing that stands out in all of that is almost none of the equipment is the same as it was sold originally. Every one has to modify their dredge. Bigger engines and pumps, more flotation, different riffles and carpet. It never seems to end. With that in mind I think something much more important is being overlooked in this discussion. Reed you touched on it in your last paragraph. The Dahlke is an original, not a copy of the other 2 and is way ahead of its time. Yes it may need fine-tuning, but you will end up with an advanced dredge. You and a few of the older dredgers will remember in the 80s when there were unique and original dredge companies everywhere. Now we have only 3 big names left and if we don’t support the originality of Bob Dahlke, he will go the way of Pesco, Gold Divers, Precision and the others. Bob is currently designing and building a compleetly new type of flair/ motor/ pump combination for my new 6"
Mesg #1148 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Zooka
In response to Reply # 5
Fri Nov-04-05 07:14 AM by Zooka
Now there is a tease!
And Rusty is right about how everyone modifies their dredges somewhat, as I recall, even Reed's Proline 4 has had its sluice completely changed, to an over/under, plus has a 6 foot extension he adds when he wants the really fine gold.
When my MicroB arrived it had a brochure on the new Poly 6 incher Bob was working on - but that one has never materialized. Basically a 4B on steroids with a 50 lb Enduro 10 horse and a stubby flared sluice. Something like 230 lbs total weight for a 6 inch dredge. Is that the one you are talking about, Rusty?
Mesg #1149 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Rusty_Happy_Camp
In response to Reply # 6
No Zooka that one isn't available yet. Bob is designing me a coustom flair that will mount the engine package at the top near the damper and shaft down to the pump mounted submerged at the inlet. No hoses, no foot valve = no line loses (I hope). Just another example of innovative design that the two larger companies don't have the time to do any more.
Mesg #1150 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Reed Lukens
In response to Reply # 6
Yep Bob has some great dredges and though you are correctly reading what I said above basically what it boils down to is in the 4” dredge class there are three different classes of dredges.
“Class A” is the full sized 4” Production Dredge which includes
#1- The 4” Proline with the 6.5hp GX series Honda, the HP400 pump and Gast compressor with the oversized jet flare. This dredge will give you the most production with the least amount of problems and needs no modification from the factory. The Gast compressor will run air for 3 or more people.
#2- The 4” Keene 4500 series with the 6.5hp GX series Honda, the P180 pump and a T80 compressor with the oversized jet flare. This dredge has a learning curve and could use a change on the powerjet coupling but it works fine from the factory and needs no modifications. Though it is not listed, this dredge will also run a gast compressor just fine.
#3 The Dahlke HP series with either the 6.5hp Enduro engine, the DP250H pump and a T80; or the 9hp Vanguard engine, DP500 jetting pump and a T80. These dredges will also handle a Gast compressor. I have never seen or used an HP series Dahlke so it would be nice to hear from some of you owners on how they work.
These dredges weigh roughly 190lbs or more and will carry all of your food and gear upstream strapped onto the sluice box and pontoons.
“Class B” is the mid sized 4” medium duty dredge. (Dahlke B Series)
This is where the Dahlke B Series Micro4B fits in; with the 5hp GC160 light duty series Honda, The DP125 pump and the Dahlke compressor, which will supply air for one person from the factory. You get better portability with this dredge because of its size but at the same time you are loosing some of the capabilities of a full sized production dredge. You get much better recovery than a submersible dredge but not as good of recovery as a full sized because of the short box with the narrow flare. This is a good dredge but needs some modification depending on how the mold turned out under the riffles. Being that it is a poly dredge, each one will be a little different. Because it is a unibody dredge made from a poly plastic, some may need more or less mods than others and some will need none. It does need a heavier damper and breathing hose. This has been a good dependable dredge through the years until 2005 when the jet was changed to a bent jet and the GC series Honda motor came out with problems from the factory. The jet was recalled and changed out with a powerjet, which makes this dredge better now than any of the previous years. The Honda motor can be taken to a Honda outlet so that it can be fixed but with the new powerjet it works fine from the factory with some small modifications.
This dredge weighs in a little over 100lbs and will not support any extra gear or the suction hose when taking it upstream for two reasons. #1 is because the sluice box sits completely underwater so there is constantly water running through it and #2 it has been designed for portability so all of the extra floatation that you get with a full sized dredge has been cut out. It is a bit too large to be carried down the trail on a wheelbarrow but it can be broken down into 5 pieces and carried in easily by one person.
The 5 pieces are
1) bare sluice,
2) the motor and air pump,
3) riffles and carpet,
4) suction hose, blaster nozzle and jet,
5) air tank, air hose, regulator, weight belt, gas, and mask.
“Class C” is the 4” Keene Submersible Suction Tube dredge with a 3½hp Briggs or larger motor and a T80 compressor. This is an add on to any Keene or Proline 2½” dredge. It can weigh anywhere from 100lbs up depending on your personal configuration. This is by far the most portable 4” dredge made and from the factory will also support extra gear while floating it upstream. You’re getting the best portability but the lowest percentage of recovery. It’s advantage is that it can easily be carried by one person complete inside of a wheelbarrow and it will float upstream with gear without any worry of it flipping over. It is an excellent and proven dependable dredge.
So there you have it. There are other dredges that fall into these categories but this is just an example to show you what exactly the “B Series” is designed for. The “A Series” dredges can be carried in by one person in 5 trips also but it is a lot more weight per load. With the Proline, the way it is designed, one person can carry the frame, pontoons, motor and air pump in one trip and though it is a real heavy trip for some people, with the carryall frame provided it is fairly easy. The Sluice box, flare, and powerjet are all carried assembled together in one piece. Then the suction hose, weight belt, and the rest can be carried in a couple more trips; but all together it is twice the weight of either the “B” or “C” series dredges. As you can see there are substantial trade off’s for each series and some people choose the “B Series” for its portability and performance. Unfortunately for me 2005 was the worst year ever to buy the mid-jet “B Series”. I got the biggest lemon of the series with all of the problems that everyone else who has bought one had combined. Then being an experienced dredger, I found the other problems right off like the suction hose connection to the body myself where it shoots the material over the riffles if the hose is angled at all for the first 10” in front of the box. This is something that every other Dahlke Micro4B owner before me should have found right off and had Bob take care of before I bought one. The problem with the riffles not sealing is going to vary from dredge to dredge because of the poly mold but these things are just a couple examples of what I found the first time I put it in the water. The rest are in the archives. The days of the mid-jets and all of their problems are finally exposed now and they are no longer in production. Bob has gone back to building an excellent powerjet for the Micro4B. Brighter days are ahead.
Because I definitely don’t pull the punches and I explained all of the problems that I saw with my mid-jet and the motor and how to fix them to Bob myself, all I can do here is ask... What happened? I know a few of you guys must have seen the same things that I did this year, years ago. Where were ya? Why didn’t you speak to Bob about them back then or put them here on the forum so that someone else could pick up the ball? I know that a lot of you did speak up about a number of things like the Brown compressor but the hose connection was too obvious for anyone to have missed.
I admit it, I talk too much is why I spoke up and helped the 4B into it’s next phase. But from now it’s your turn.
Thanks again,
Reed Lukens
Mesg #1152 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author dbeals
In response to Reply # 9
Reed
You have made excellent facts and comparisons on Bob's Micro 4B. I have owned both Keene and the Micro 4. Please do no get up set with the following statement. When you first bought Bob dredge and you were having problems with it. Bob offered to buy it back from you at the cost he sold it to you. But you turned him down. Why did you turn him down before losing any of your money?
I'm just curious.
Dave
Mesg #1153 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Reed Lukens
In response to Reply # 10
Bob said that when he got some money ahead that he would like to buy it back, but it never went any further than that and I really wasn’t willing to pay any shipping charges to send it back to him. I figured it was 50/50 to either return it, and pay the shipping charges, or to sell it and make someone else happy with a well working modified dredge. For the right type of person like Jerry, the guy that I sold it to, it will be the perfect dredge for him. He is of small to medium build and in his mid to late 50’s so he would have a real hard time with moving a 200+ pound “A Series” dredge around. He couldn’t fit a full sized dredge in the back of his small truck the way it is set up and it is light enough for him to move around by himself.
The Dahlke is a good dredge now but I already have the 4” Proline and the 4” Sub and after carrying the micro4b in and seeing it operate I was convinced that I didn’t need it. My original plan was to buy the Dahlke and compare it to the other two 4” dredges that I have and keep the better combination of the three. I was hoping that I would be keeping the Dahlke so that I could sell the other two. But I still need both dredges because the Dahlke though very portable was still to big to fit on my wheelbarrow and I couldn’t pack everything on top of it that I would need for a days dredging. And I just don’t trust its buoyancy enough to make a float trip down the Middle Fork of the American with it. Where I dredge at and after watching it operate I was looking up too often to make sure that it wasn’t sinking and to check the air.
Having the motor problem was the first and most upsetting thing since I had talked to him about it over the phone and asked him to make sure that this was a good motor before he shipped it. It’s like I did my part and told him that I was buying it and would be writing an article about it for the ICMJ in advance. I told him to do whatever it takes to make sure it works good and to double check everything so that I could give the Micro4B the greatest review ever written. And that was my plan! So I did my part and honestly told him before I bought it what I was buying it for and I gave him every chance plus the extra quality control heads up that should have put this dredge at the very top of everyone’s Christmas list. You guys all know how I write. It would have been ausom.
The motor did have oil in it when it arrived here so it had been started at some point. Whether it was a return or just a missed problem I will never know. We did discuss the bent jet before I bought it and I was trying to tell him that it was going to be a problem. He said that it worked great and that I would be really happy with it. I’ll let this paragraph go at that.
Any of you guys that have the tri-jet would be real happy with his new dual log powerjet. You guys should call him and ask him what he would charge to build you one. I am very impressed with the new jet and it wouldn’t be too hard to modify the tri-jet into a powerjet. Also doing away with the 1½” Blue lay flat hose this year really helped with the performance and quality of this dredge.
I know that I keep saying this but I am happy with the way the dredge ran when I sold it. Unfortunately it was everything that I had to do to it, to get it running right, that turned me against keeping it. I mean it was basically just sitting under a tarp all summer because of the jet and after the day of plug up after plug up in the bent jet I was fed up... I haven’t run a dredge without an oversized flare in years and I never liked that set up.
This is a list of the top 10 things that I think he should do to the 4B to make it better.
1) Modify the unibody and go ahead and turn it into a dredge with an oversized powerjet with a quick hose coupling.
2) I would increase the width of the jet flare into the box up to 14” from the 9½” that it is now, add another 6” of length to the flare and lose one of the dovetails in the riffle tray. Personally I don’t see the need for any more than 3 different riffles of each type to catch the different types of gold; and that would give him the extra length needed to do the flare. If he changed to a rolled metal for the angle iron riffles he could also cut a lot off of the overall weight.
3) He needs to get rid of the ribbed matting that he uses for a damper because it isn’t thick enough or flexible enough to properly do the job. The water’s surface inside the sluice box can be well protected from oil and gas by a good extended damper, so there is no need for a drip pan.
4) Being that the dredge doesn’t need to run at full throttle he should change the size of the compressor pulley to make it work for 2 people. I think it’s a 2” pulley on the motor and a 7” pulley on the compressor and he rates the compressor at 1700rpm. If you are running at ¾ throttle then the compressor pulley could be dropped to as small as 4” or to a 2 to 1 ratio.
5) He might not need the heavy duty spring for the pop off either because there is no need to make it a higher pressure compressor unless it’s for some regulators which require more air pressure; it just needs to be made into a higher volume compressor by increasing the rpm’s. Maybe have 2-stage pulley that could be turned over from the 4” to 6” when you are changing from one person to two. You would just need another belt and pulley either way.
6) He needs to realize that the air hose that he is selling with his dredge is not good enough to sell to people to breathe through. He can call Keene, Proline, or Pioneer for that matter and they can explain to him the difference if he doesn’t already know. Being out in the sticks he may have never heard of people using breathing hose before.
7) For the 4B because of the lack of extra flotation I would also go to a small 12” round air tank that couldn’t be caught by the current like the soda-pop canisters handles. I really like the Soda-pop canisters but they are just not perfect for this dredge and if it’s not mounted on the top of the 4B it tries to help submarine it in real swift current.
8) I would also lower the motor deeper inside of the sluice box. It could be lowered as much as 3” give or take and that would really change the overall balance of this dredge for the good. You guys can make your own motor mounts easy enough to do this also, but it is just one of the other “miner” things that I noticed I would be doing if I had kept this dredge for myself.
9) He should go ahead and provide a hose bib for the blaster nozzle.
10) And last but not least, I would do away with the bent nozzle as an option.
I had bought this one for my son so it had to be perfect and I had high hopes...
Will I ever buy another Dahlke Micro 4B?
In another 10 to 15 years, when I can’t carry in a full sized dredge anymore myself, Yes I will.
In response to Reply # 8
Mon Nov-07-05 12:23 PM by Zooka
Reed and all, I'm short of time, going out of town for the week tomorrow early after being gone all weekend, but one quick thing I'd say is that as for the problem with the slurry going to one side or the other when the hose is bent at the body, the main reason I think I had not noticed it is that I dredge alone, in other words I am not able to look at the sluice while I am sucking up gravel. I had noticed one time and one time only upon shutdown that the riffles seemed to be loaded on one side and bare on the other, but hadnt been able to see why; and it only happened that once... I sort of naturally kept the hose as straight as possible where it entered the dredge, but didnt really think beyond that.
And I think that this is true of the other 4B users here, they are solo dredgers mostly. You and I noticed the deflection of the slurry when the hose was kinked over right off the bat, in fact you told me what to look for that day we first set up, as you'd noticed it before, and wanted my input. But we had that hose kinked over to demonstrate it; when I was dredging with it later that didnt happen becvause I made sure the hose was going in straight.
THis problem can be avioded if you dredge with your hose pulled out straight where it hits the dredge, not all cocked over to one side at the dredge.
Having said that, it is indeed not the best situation! and is a design problem, and the new dual log powerjet fixes that problem, and good eyes on you to spot the situation.
Interesting idea about modifying the midjet to work like the powerjet, might have to try that, will check with local muffler shops.
And I like your division of 4 inchers into 3 categories ( though you left the 4 inch bazooka out of the category C...). One thing I have noticed about 4B users, as I said above, is they tend to dredge solo more than other dredgers. And if I were choosing between dredging solo or with another person, and wanted more gold at the end of the day, using that lighter dredge and keeping 100% of the take would sure be attractive compared to splitting 50/50 using a class A 4 incher.
Still, the 4B WON'T do everything that the bigger dredges do, that is why Bob makes the 2 varieties of 4 incher. It may need modifications to do some jobs that the bigger ones can do stock, but ALL dredges will need to be modified to do some tasks better, as dredges are generally sold to be multi-use compromises. Why, even you, Reed, drastically modified your Proline, with the custom over/under sluice "modification" and 6 foot DFS style extension you made.
Now I have to take issue with this statement you made:
"Because I definitely don’t pull the punches and I explained all of the problems that I saw with my mid-jet and the motor and how to fix them to Bob myself, all I can do here is ask... What happened? I know a few of you guys must have seen the same things that I did this year, years ago. Where were ya? Why didn’t you speak to Bob about them back then or put them here on the forum so that someone else could pick up the ball? I know that a lot of you did speak up about a number of things like the Brown compressor but the hose connection was too obvious for anyone to have missed."
I guess the answer to your question of why us other owners didnt mention the things you have brought up is twofold; first, we did mention a lot of things we obbserved, and second, that we are not as experienced, or maybe we dont require the same things that you do from a dredge. I hope that yall dont think I am a super dredger of vast experience, because I am NOT, nor have I ever held myself out to be so. I've been a miner and a prospector full-time professionally, and for fun, but never tried to even pay for gas with a dredge. Just dont live in the right place. Similar stories with the other guys here.
I am puzzled at your comments about who spotted what problems and when, though. I had no idea about the air hose problem because it basically didnt say it WASNT breathing hose, so you get the prize for knowing that one. THe sideways slurry problem I saw only once with mine, because normally I tried to set it so the hose stayed straight, seemed to be more common sense than a design flaw, and also I have seen similar problems with overloading one side of the sluice in dredges with much longer jets and flares. The flotation issue, well that has been talked about a lot. I for one dont have the big-dredge flotation requirements where I dredge, especially with the inner tube equipment trailer. The lack of included hose bib and the nylock nut issues I thought were cheezy and I pointed them out a couple of years ago when I got mine. The dampener issue I and others here discussed so much that you had already lined up a dampener before you got hold of your dredge as I recall. The bent jet design, well that one was a short lived experiment wasnt it? Just came out this spring. What a disaster, and you, I, and several others were appalled at the concept from the first time it was spoken about, to have a bent jet in the middle of the hose like a suction nozzle.
The engine problem you had was recent also; mine from 2 yrs ago doesnt have it (knock on wood).
THe issue of whether to add a metal plate under the matting is an old one, and there are owners who feel pro and con on the matter and have discussed that question for a long time. Same with the miners moss versus the stock carpet.
So I guess my answer to your statement is that most of the issues you mention with the dredge were indeed identified here on this forum before you got yours. Of the ones that were not, the blue hose was a very important good catch by you, the engine throttle spring issue and the bent jet issue were ID'd before you got yours at least to some degree, (you knew enough about the engine problem to ask Bob to check your machine out to be sure it didnt have the problem, and by June we knew the bent jet wasnt working, which is why I brought my midjet in my suitcase for us to use on the moderator's outing) but unfortunately these problems were sufficient to keep you from using the machine (understandably) for most of the season. And also the flotation situation IMHO is an important enough issue for you and your son, where you guys dredge, that you were justified to get rid of the dredge; to attempt add-ons of pontoons and outriggers, is a half-baked solution to that particular problem.
I've dredged some with 4 inch and 5 inch Keenes and Prolines , single and dual- engines, and the performance of my 4B on these poor Texas rivers was comparable, suction and recovery wise. NOT the SAME, mind you, especially comparing volume and suction of 4B to the twin engine 5s, here and out in Cali, but the 4B's volume and suction was adequate and comparable. I had Brown/Federal compressor problems with mine( see archives) but Bob was using the Brown instead of the T-80 because it was BETTER than the Thomas; before Federal bought Brown they were thought to be superior to the Thomas. The people with older Browns have a great compressor that by all accounts outperforms the T-80, and when mine was working it supported 2 of us in shallow water as well as or better than the T-80. THe fact that Federal screwed up the compressor and Bob had to stop using them is, well, bad luck for him and for me. THe new compressor, well so far so good.
Anyway, Got to scoot but wanted to throw these thoughts out. I started this thread with that provocative title because lots of people lurk and have questions about dredges, and this thread ought to give them many sides of the story on this particular dredge, in one easy read.
Thanks to all of you guys for chipping in, especially Reed for his well-organized, and passionate arguments. I most certainly do NOT want to get anyone in the boat he is in, feeling really let down and abused by his dredge purchase, and I thank him for letting us know all the negatives before someone else gets into that position. -Zooka
And here is the original link
Prospectors Cache Forum - Viewing topic #1140 - Should you buy a 4B?
This first piece was by Zooka, a long time friend of mine.
Reed Lukens
The Lukens Gold Mining Company, established in 1903
Subject: "Should you buy a 4B?" First topic
Mesg #1140 "Should you buy a 4B?"
Author Zooka
Date Sun Nov-06-05 06:47 PM
Message
Well Reed went back and added a very important postscript to an old message, and I thought it was important enough that I want to sort of give it its own post. THere are a bunch of good posts by him on the subject of his 4B but this one is sort of the summary post.
Reed has very high, professional standards for his gold mining equipment, and as a multi - generational California placer miner there is none of the hobbyist in him. Quick background, he bought a 4B last spring and spent the summer fighting with it to get it to work the way he wanted to. Here are his thoughts on the dredge:
The Dahlke works fine now with the mods that I’ve been forced to make and hopefully I will be able to talk Bob into adding just a few more pounds to make this dredge right from day one. Being that the o.d. on the hose is only 4½” if you do decide to use 6” PVC then you will need some duct tape. I think cutting a piece of 4” PVC in half and then clamping it on might work ok but just going to the muffler shop and buying a piece of 4” would be the best. The gold recovery of the Dahlke is as good as can be expected with a single stage sluice and for here in California I don’t see a need to change it. It was catching fine gold ok but there was a definite loss of the super fine powder gold that I didn’t see in it at all. But without doing a test there is no way to know for sure where the loss is going to be. I’m sure glad that Bob is recalling this bent jet because after just 5 hours of work mine has already started to show a large bulge in the bend and if used for a couple of weeks straight would just blow out before the weeks over. I’ve never seen a new jet warp so fast.
I also told Bob about the problem I have with the foot valve being so light and I hope that he moves the tie down for it up into place to hold it straight down. My foot valve is so light that it is always riding up on top of the water sucking air unless I weight it or tie it down so I’m going to change it out with a metal one to hopefully eliminate most of this problem. We forgot to check the pressure difference using a larger foot valve but I will do this the next time I go out and let you know.
The Proline damper that I put on the Micro 4B is the best for this dredge being that the flare opening is only 9½” into a 20” box. You need to have a heavy damper to stop the slurry from being blown over the riffles. This one thing is why you see real good recovery in my Dredges.
I need to put a longer damper on my 4” Proline also but it works ok with the stock one that I have on it for now. Personally I did see a difference in the size of fine gold recovered between the two dredges but it wasn’t a test to see which was better. They were there so that people could dredge. The Proline is bigger but it is a better production dredge all the way around with enough proven air for 5 people; where the Dahlke is a better small light weight back packer that can be carried into any small stream by two people in one trip. The 9hp Honda motor with the HP500 pump and Gast 263 compressor on my Proline weighs more than the complete Dahlke Micro4B. We didn’t even put the sluice extension on the Proline which makes it about 10 feet long but it doesn’t loose much powdered gold anyway. All of the gold was in the upper ½ of the box with no visible gold in the bottom ½ at all.
I don’t have a problem moving the Proline because I don’t have to worry about it sinking so I just tie the rope on it and drag it up stream or wherever without having to watch it. Like Dave said… lmao… he sank the Dahlke but what he meant to say was that he didn’t sink the Proline. I would take the Proline to the Middle fork of the American where I usually dredge without hesitation due to the fast deep water but I could not take the Dahlke because the water is too fast for it and it would roll over or submarine. I would carry the Dahlke into my claim way up on the Bear River in my quad in one trip where it would take 2 trips and a lot of extra time with my Proline. I can run my Proline fine with the 6.5 Honda but I prefer to be able to compete with a 8hp 5” dredge as far as overall production. Basically like Dave said between the two dredges its apples to oranges. They are two different dredges for two different applications and this is why I need both. Will the Proline move a lot more material in the same amount of time as the Dahlke while still retaining the powder gold? Yes it’s roughly 1000gpm (over 600gpm on the Dahlke) and designed to do that much more work with no plug ups. I have taken the Proline and let it ride through rapids so fast that the top of the water looked like corrugated roofing with no problem while holding me up on the way down stream. The Dahlke could not do this in any way shape or form with out turning upside down. Could I carry the Dahlke Down a ½ mile of steep cliff and still be able to get it out fairly easily? Yes.
This couldn’t be done easily with the complete Proline.
With the Dahlke I need to run the stock Proline suction tip on it for adequate suction where if I ran this tip on the Proline it would break my fingers so the Proline has a swivel nozzle on it. On any over under set up you need to check and clean off the punch plate every time you gas up. The Proline mods that I did are still in the experimental stage but it worked great as a stock dredge right out of the factory. I need to add some 3/8 punch plate over the first few riffles of the top section for another classification now with the over under to take the place of the wave classifier but it’s not a priority at this time. The next time I take it out I’m going to try it with the 6.5 Honda again.
Apples to Oranges or Ferrari to Subaru Outback, there really is no need for comparison because they are built for two different purposes and I own the best of both worlds when it comes to dredges.
All in all they are both great dredges after some work on the Dahlke but the one basic reason that I would go with the Proline is the motor. It sure is nice to be able to start a motor on the first pull with the GX series. The GC series is frustrating to say the least and it took way to many pulls to start it every time.
Now for the Dahlke summary…
If I were to buy the Dahlke straight from the factory right now I would buy
1. The bare bones dredge frame itself with the stock riffles.
2. The 4hp GX series Honda motor with the DP 250pump.
3. The Air tank.
4. The tri-jet or whatever straight jet that he will make for it
I would NOT buy
1. The GC series 5hp motor
2. The non breathing quality blue Kmart air hose.
3. Definitely not the bent jet.
4. The bent nozzle.
5. The air pump because of the $100.00 price difference over a T80.
6. The air pump’s pulleys or belts.
7. The damper.
8. The foot valve.
9. Or the silicone full face mask that you can buy for over $50 less anywhere else.
I will be returning the Damper, the Bent Jet, the Bent Nozzle, and the blue air hose to Bob and though I think I deserve it, I expect no money to be returned. If I hadn’t used the face mask and thrown away the packaging I would have returned it also for the $150 I paid for it before I knew.
Below is a copy of the Dahlke add from this months ICMJ. Notice that the price in the add states that it is $2500 with the air compressor.
I paid $2945 full retail from him and I had it picked up there. He would not come down in price even with all of the trimmings. I tried to talk him down and told him in advance that I would be buying it for evaluation and that he should double check everything for the best results. He assured me that it was ready for evaluation when I had it picked up. Whether he knew what kind of an evaluation I ment or not I guess was the key issue nut i told him that it would be for the public. The $445 dollar difference is a bit steep and I don’t think that it is worth more money then either the 4” Proline or Keene. I paid extra for the air tank, air hose, regulator, and the full-face mask. But when I buy a complete Keene or a Proline from a dealer, they give me the air tank, breathing hoses and a regulator for free. Right now if you buy a new Keene 4” 3 stage with a 6.5Hp Intec which is better than the Honda GC series; with a T80 ready to go it’s going to cost you $2700 with out shipping. And they will throw in the regulator, air hose, tank, and a harness for free. The Proline 4" dredge w/5.5hp Honda, HP350 pump & T-80 costs $2660.00 or the 4" dredge w/6.5hp Honda, HP400 pump & T-80 costs $2795.00.
For the money I think $2300 complete out the door with air would be more of a fair price for the Dahlke just because of the difference in the quality of the materials. At Northerntool.com the GC series Honda that Bob is selling on his dredge costs $210.00. The 6.5hp GX series Honda engine that comes standard on the new Keene or Proline costs around $545 from them. Northern doesn’t sell this motor yet. Dahlke charges $350 for his air compressor which works fine for one person but has no reputation yet and Keene sells the well proven T80 for only $245. Maybe Bobs is worth the extra $110.00 but I don’t see much difference so far and they are both single piston compressors.
The thin damper that Bob puts on his dredge basically serves no purpose other than for looks. The damper that Dave is raving about on my 4B is actually the stock ¼” thick Proline damper from my 6” that I cut down and cut the slits into for the 20” wide Dahlke box.
The miners moss that I had to add to the Dahlke Micro 4B is the same miners moss that comes stock in the Proline dredge.
The Dahlke is a good dredge but it needs a reliable easy starting motor. These are the things that I would do different when I ordered a new Dahlke if I would have known what I was getting before hand.
Look at the pics and you can see how well it works now compared to when I first got it. The air system is from Keene. So I now have a customized Dahlke dredge rebuilt with Keene and Proline parts. Notice how close to the surface the foot valve is floating even though it is tied down. I added a few pounds to the Dahlke but now it works.
********
"It's October now and I saw that the pictures were gone from this post so I reloaded them.
< http://49ermike.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=197&topic_id=1033&mesg_id=1033&page= >
After everything was done and I got the Dahlke running great I ended up selling it this month because of everything that I went through in order to make this a great dredge. It is a great dredge now, but I just have enough bad feelings that I feel the need to sell it and get it far away from me. This is an important thread and I read through all of my old posts from May until now to remember what all I had gone through with this litle dredge this summer. As good of a dredge as it ended up being in the last days of this season, I am sure glad to be rid of it and all of the headaches that came with it. It does run great now but the bad feelings and loss of time that I had working on this dredge has just left me with a huge sinking feeling. I may buy another in time but for now re-reading these posts has given me a stomache ache. It took almost all summer to get this dredge running great and it finally came together when Bob sent the new powerjet in time to run it for a few days at the end of the season. The dredge took almost the whole season to get completed and in good running condition from the factory and I wish it well now that I am done with it. It is a great dredge now but when I got it, it was a rotten lemon. While I worked on this dredge I ended up changing it from a real bad lemon into a real gold dredge and I hope that Bob learned a few things about dredge building also. Hopefully he will never try to cut costs the way he did on my dredge ever again because it is very doubtful right now that I will ever be a Dahlke fan or buy directly from him again. It hurts bad enough that it will take me years to forget all of the hastles that came with this micro4b. Anyone who is considering buying new from the factory should go back to my first post in May and read everything that I and others went through this summer and then think twice. Now that he has the powerjet, the dredge has one of the biggest problems solved from the factory but there are still plenty of other issues that will come with a new one.
Reed Lukens
Replies to this topic
Mesg #1141 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?"
Author Zooka
In response to Reply # 0
Whew! As always, Mr. Lukens pulls no punches.
All of that being said, I also want to note that there are a number of other folks here on the forum who have used their 4Bs with great success and been totally satisfied with them ( the ones without the bent jet! That was a disaster). You can find their posts here too.
I think the chief thing that sets the 4B apart from the competition is its portability. And that portability is the thing that causes many of its shortcomings!
But if you are a solo dredger especially, and only working weekends, and maybe not in the best of physical shape, I think the Dahlke really shines brightest in that scenario. Its ease of storage, transport, and movement to and from the water are just in a class all by itself. I've moved Keene and Proline 4 inchers, and if there are 2 people it isnt bad. But for 1 they are a lot more work.
My thanks to Reed for his sharing of all the hard work and thought he put into fine tuning his 4B! We can all profit from his experience.
One last lesson: Resale value. Reed sold his in what, 2 days? He took about a 25 to 30% loss on price, after a season's use. Try and sell a 1 - season used Keene or Proline that quick for that little of a loss. Dredges lose a lot of value just "driving them off the lot", like new cars.
IP Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top
Mesg #1142 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?"
Author srclark
In response to Reply # 1
Zooka your right about Reed not pulling any punches!! i've never met him but he does seem to have quite a background as a dredger. but, i really like my 4B. i think his major problem was the bent jet. i put a heavier damper on mine. i think i may need to find some kinda of different material other than a mudflap for a truck. it did make a difference i may put the stock damper back on just to double check the performance. i think it's hard to compare apples with oranges each machine is different. and, each has it's own learning curve. who ever bought i hope they use it and find lots of gold. or, if there like me living in the southeast just get out and have fun looking for gold....sammy
Mesg #1143 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Reed Lukens
In response to Reply # 1
Zooka’s statement.
“One last lesson: Resale value. Reed sold his in what, 2 days? He took about a 25 to 30% loss on price, after a season's use. Try and sell a 1 - season used Keene or Proline that quick for that little of a loss. Dredges lose a lot of value just "driving them off the lot", like new cars.”
Actually I put up the add for a week at $2900 with two extra 15 foot hoses and it didn’t sell. Then I put it up for another week at $2500 with the one extra hose and it didn’t sell. Then I put it up for a 3rd week for $2500 and added two wet suits and a weight belt. Then someone who wasn’t a member found it the next week by doing a search for Dahlke. If I had gotten a full season of use out of it $2500 would have been too high of a price. Thanks to all of the problems with it, I only got about 4 days use out of it myself all summer plus the days that you used it while you were here with your tri-jet that you brought off of yours. It is basically still a new dredge with only 2 days use on the new powerjet, which took away too much of the season to get here. In no way shape or form did I get a season out of it. In fact if I had only had the micro4b, this season would have been a total loss. If you figure out the cost with everything that I had to do to a $2945 dollar dredge then adding moss, a real damper, a different Keene air set up that was legal, a nozzle, and then the suction hose off of my Proline because when Bob sent the new powerjet he didn’t send a one piece hose, and the $150 I paid my buddy to pick it up, you will end up with maybe $3700..... Anyway I figure it was a huge loss of not only money but also time for a new dredge.
If you bought a new micro 4b now from Dahlke with the powerjet and no air it would be ok for a small stream. If you don’t know why I say “ Don’t Buy A Dahlke Air System” then go back and read up on what I found out about the Dahlke air system.
I basically bought this dredge to take the place of my 4” Keene submersible because I wanted the better recovery that you can get with a surface dredge. But now after using it, I think that for the weight and dependability, the Dahlke is no comparison to my sub set up. I can put my weight belt, anchor, lunch, gas and everything that I need for a back pack trip onto my Keene sub and haul it upstream and it weighs a lot less than the 4b. I tried this with the Dahlke and my weight belt alone was enough to sink it.
As far as carrying it in over a Proline I choose the Proline because one person still has to break down the Dahlke to carry it in comfortably and it is more awkward to carry then either the Keene or the Proline. If you are an invalid I would buy the Keene sub hands down but for moderately disabled people to fit people I would stay with a reputable dealer that doesn’t sell automotive grade air hose on his dredge while telling them that it is an excellent quality breathing hose.
Man I was so revved up about this dredge that I called and bought the best that he had believing that it would compare to my Proline. I told him that I was going to write an article about it before hand and to make sure that everything was as good or better than normal before I picked it up. This is what really gets me the most. Do I really want to write an honest product update on the 2005 Dahlke Micro4B for the ICMJ after my experience? No Way! You have to realize that the Dahlke dredge I bought is no longer a Dahlke. It is now a good working unit with Keene and Proline parts added on to make it work. All in all with more than I wanted to say, the stock 2005 Dahlke Micro 4b from the factory was a big two thumbs down. Let’s hope that the 2006 model without air will hopefully be a winner.
This Dahlke was the fourteenth dredge that I either have bought or built myself in the last 23 years. It is the 6th brand new dredge that I have bought and the only dredge that I have ever sold because of ongoing quality issues. I still have my 5 other dredges of various sizes ranging from 2½” to 8” that I continue to use year after year. I have found Keene or Proline to be the best quality dredge to buy and they are using the best top quality parts available and selling theirs for roughly the same price as a Dahlke which in my book should sell for about 25% less. You get more bang for your buck along with excellent floating dependability with Keene or Proline. I can see why Bob wants to sell the micro line and I can also see why nobody has bought into it. What it boils down to is that he has a dredge that right now is ahead of its time. When the proper super-lightweight 4hp motor comes out for it in a few years this dredge will be primo but this year it was a lemon.
Mesg #1146 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Zooka
In response to Reply # 3
Huh, I guess I missed it in the For Sale forum, I dont go there much. I just saw it on the 28th, posted about it being for sale, and it was sold on the 29th...
See my earlier posts about the equipment trailer I use to float stuff like belts, gas, prybars and such with the dredge. Inner tube with a plastic bin inside it.
When you talk about the "Dahlke air system" being bad, what are you referring to? I know the new model compressor works fine, I used it with my son, the both of us. It needed a little smaller pulley for 2 people at once, but it was designed to work at those resulting higher rpms, the larger pulley just puts less load on that 5 horse for its usual mode, solo dredging. The 5 gallon pop syrup can as air tank works beautifully. THe only gripe I recall you having with the air besides being marginal for 2 divers was with the air hose itself.
And as for the resale value, I've watched a lot of dredges get sold used on forums and on ebay, many that were in great shape and with few hours, and yours brought in more than the Keene or Proline units I've seen that had few hours on them. Someone was willing to pay just about what he could have for a new Proline or Keene for that little used dredge, and that speaks well for its resale value. You as a seller might value all the time and money you put into modifying it, but for buyers that can frequently be a turn-off, like the 1 year old jacked-up pickup truck with fancy chrome wheels and 44 inch mud tires and engine modifications and such - it limits the audience for resale.
Mesg #1147 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Rusty_Happy_Camp
In response to Reply # 3
I have followed this thread from the start. I use a Dahlke poly 4 and enjoy the freedom of movement it gives me. Other than my Bazooka I have never seen a more portable dredge. I too have had a bunch of dredges both new and used. I can guarantee that I lost an easy 50% on the last new Keene mini 6 that I sold after trying to sell it for about 3 months. I deal in new and used dredging equipment and Honda engines. In that capacity I talk to and see several hundred dredgers a year that have all types of equipment. The one thing that stands out in all of that is almost none of the equipment is the same as it was sold originally. Every one has to modify their dredge. Bigger engines and pumps, more flotation, different riffles and carpet. It never seems to end. With that in mind I think something much more important is being overlooked in this discussion. Reed you touched on it in your last paragraph. The Dahlke is an original, not a copy of the other 2 and is way ahead of its time. Yes it may need fine-tuning, but you will end up with an advanced dredge. You and a few of the older dredgers will remember in the 80s when there were unique and original dredge companies everywhere. Now we have only 3 big names left and if we don’t support the originality of Bob Dahlke, he will go the way of Pesco, Gold Divers, Precision and the others. Bob is currently designing and building a compleetly new type of flair/ motor/ pump combination for my new 6"
Mesg #1148 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Zooka
In response to Reply # 5
Fri Nov-04-05 07:14 AM by Zooka
Now there is a tease!
And Rusty is right about how everyone modifies their dredges somewhat, as I recall, even Reed's Proline 4 has had its sluice completely changed, to an over/under, plus has a 6 foot extension he adds when he wants the really fine gold.
When my MicroB arrived it had a brochure on the new Poly 6 incher Bob was working on - but that one has never materialized. Basically a 4B on steroids with a 50 lb Enduro 10 horse and a stubby flared sluice. Something like 230 lbs total weight for a 6 inch dredge. Is that the one you are talking about, Rusty?
Mesg #1149 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Rusty_Happy_Camp
In response to Reply # 6
No Zooka that one isn't available yet. Bob is designing me a coustom flair that will mount the engine package at the top near the damper and shaft down to the pump mounted submerged at the inlet. No hoses, no foot valve = no line loses (I hope). Just another example of innovative design that the two larger companies don't have the time to do any more.
Mesg #1150 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Reed Lukens
In response to Reply # 6
Yep Bob has some great dredges and though you are correctly reading what I said above basically what it boils down to is in the 4” dredge class there are three different classes of dredges.
“Class A” is the full sized 4” Production Dredge which includes
#1- The 4” Proline with the 6.5hp GX series Honda, the HP400 pump and Gast compressor with the oversized jet flare. This dredge will give you the most production with the least amount of problems and needs no modification from the factory. The Gast compressor will run air for 3 or more people.
#2- The 4” Keene 4500 series with the 6.5hp GX series Honda, the P180 pump and a T80 compressor with the oversized jet flare. This dredge has a learning curve and could use a change on the powerjet coupling but it works fine from the factory and needs no modifications. Though it is not listed, this dredge will also run a gast compressor just fine.
#3 The Dahlke HP series with either the 6.5hp Enduro engine, the DP250H pump and a T80; or the 9hp Vanguard engine, DP500 jetting pump and a T80. These dredges will also handle a Gast compressor. I have never seen or used an HP series Dahlke so it would be nice to hear from some of you owners on how they work.
These dredges weigh roughly 190lbs or more and will carry all of your food and gear upstream strapped onto the sluice box and pontoons.
“Class B” is the mid sized 4” medium duty dredge. (Dahlke B Series)
This is where the Dahlke B Series Micro4B fits in; with the 5hp GC160 light duty series Honda, The DP125 pump and the Dahlke compressor, which will supply air for one person from the factory. You get better portability with this dredge because of its size but at the same time you are loosing some of the capabilities of a full sized production dredge. You get much better recovery than a submersible dredge but not as good of recovery as a full sized because of the short box with the narrow flare. This is a good dredge but needs some modification depending on how the mold turned out under the riffles. Being that it is a poly dredge, each one will be a little different. Because it is a unibody dredge made from a poly plastic, some may need more or less mods than others and some will need none. It does need a heavier damper and breathing hose. This has been a good dependable dredge through the years until 2005 when the jet was changed to a bent jet and the GC series Honda motor came out with problems from the factory. The jet was recalled and changed out with a powerjet, which makes this dredge better now than any of the previous years. The Honda motor can be taken to a Honda outlet so that it can be fixed but with the new powerjet it works fine from the factory with some small modifications.
This dredge weighs in a little over 100lbs and will not support any extra gear or the suction hose when taking it upstream for two reasons. #1 is because the sluice box sits completely underwater so there is constantly water running through it and #2 it has been designed for portability so all of the extra floatation that you get with a full sized dredge has been cut out. It is a bit too large to be carried down the trail on a wheelbarrow but it can be broken down into 5 pieces and carried in easily by one person.
The 5 pieces are
1) bare sluice,
2) the motor and air pump,
3) riffles and carpet,
4) suction hose, blaster nozzle and jet,
5) air tank, air hose, regulator, weight belt, gas, and mask.
“Class C” is the 4” Keene Submersible Suction Tube dredge with a 3½hp Briggs or larger motor and a T80 compressor. This is an add on to any Keene or Proline 2½” dredge. It can weigh anywhere from 100lbs up depending on your personal configuration. This is by far the most portable 4” dredge made and from the factory will also support extra gear while floating it upstream. You’re getting the best portability but the lowest percentage of recovery. It’s advantage is that it can easily be carried by one person complete inside of a wheelbarrow and it will float upstream with gear without any worry of it flipping over. It is an excellent and proven dependable dredge.
So there you have it. There are other dredges that fall into these categories but this is just an example to show you what exactly the “B Series” is designed for. The “A Series” dredges can be carried in by one person in 5 trips also but it is a lot more weight per load. With the Proline, the way it is designed, one person can carry the frame, pontoons, motor and air pump in one trip and though it is a real heavy trip for some people, with the carryall frame provided it is fairly easy. The Sluice box, flare, and powerjet are all carried assembled together in one piece. Then the suction hose, weight belt, and the rest can be carried in a couple more trips; but all together it is twice the weight of either the “B” or “C” series dredges. As you can see there are substantial trade off’s for each series and some people choose the “B Series” for its portability and performance. Unfortunately for me 2005 was the worst year ever to buy the mid-jet “B Series”. I got the biggest lemon of the series with all of the problems that everyone else who has bought one had combined. Then being an experienced dredger, I found the other problems right off like the suction hose connection to the body myself where it shoots the material over the riffles if the hose is angled at all for the first 10” in front of the box. This is something that every other Dahlke Micro4B owner before me should have found right off and had Bob take care of before I bought one. The problem with the riffles not sealing is going to vary from dredge to dredge because of the poly mold but these things are just a couple examples of what I found the first time I put it in the water. The rest are in the archives. The days of the mid-jets and all of their problems are finally exposed now and they are no longer in production. Bob has gone back to building an excellent powerjet for the Micro4B. Brighter days are ahead.
Because I definitely don’t pull the punches and I explained all of the problems that I saw with my mid-jet and the motor and how to fix them to Bob myself, all I can do here is ask... What happened? I know a few of you guys must have seen the same things that I did this year, years ago. Where were ya? Why didn’t you speak to Bob about them back then or put them here on the forum so that someone else could pick up the ball? I know that a lot of you did speak up about a number of things like the Brown compressor but the hose connection was too obvious for anyone to have missed.
I admit it, I talk too much is why I spoke up and helped the 4B into it’s next phase. But from now it’s your turn.
Thanks again,
Reed Lukens
Mesg #1152 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author dbeals
In response to Reply # 9
Reed
You have made excellent facts and comparisons on Bob's Micro 4B. I have owned both Keene and the Micro 4. Please do no get up set with the following statement. When you first bought Bob dredge and you were having problems with it. Bob offered to buy it back from you at the cost he sold it to you. But you turned him down. Why did you turn him down before losing any of your money?
I'm just curious.
Dave
Mesg #1153 "RE: Should you buy a 4B?No"
Author Reed Lukens
In response to Reply # 10
Bob said that when he got some money ahead that he would like to buy it back, but it never went any further than that and I really wasn’t willing to pay any shipping charges to send it back to him. I figured it was 50/50 to either return it, and pay the shipping charges, or to sell it and make someone else happy with a well working modified dredge. For the right type of person like Jerry, the guy that I sold it to, it will be the perfect dredge for him. He is of small to medium build and in his mid to late 50’s so he would have a real hard time with moving a 200+ pound “A Series” dredge around. He couldn’t fit a full sized dredge in the back of his small truck the way it is set up and it is light enough for him to move around by himself.
The Dahlke is a good dredge now but I already have the 4” Proline and the 4” Sub and after carrying the micro4b in and seeing it operate I was convinced that I didn’t need it. My original plan was to buy the Dahlke and compare it to the other two 4” dredges that I have and keep the better combination of the three. I was hoping that I would be keeping the Dahlke so that I could sell the other two. But I still need both dredges because the Dahlke though very portable was still to big to fit on my wheelbarrow and I couldn’t pack everything on top of it that I would need for a days dredging. And I just don’t trust its buoyancy enough to make a float trip down the Middle Fork of the American with it. Where I dredge at and after watching it operate I was looking up too often to make sure that it wasn’t sinking and to check the air.
Having the motor problem was the first and most upsetting thing since I had talked to him about it over the phone and asked him to make sure that this was a good motor before he shipped it. It’s like I did my part and told him that I was buying it and would be writing an article about it for the ICMJ in advance. I told him to do whatever it takes to make sure it works good and to double check everything so that I could give the Micro4B the greatest review ever written. And that was my plan! So I did my part and honestly told him before I bought it what I was buying it for and I gave him every chance plus the extra quality control heads up that should have put this dredge at the very top of everyone’s Christmas list. You guys all know how I write. It would have been ausom.
The motor did have oil in it when it arrived here so it had been started at some point. Whether it was a return or just a missed problem I will never know. We did discuss the bent jet before I bought it and I was trying to tell him that it was going to be a problem. He said that it worked great and that I would be really happy with it. I’ll let this paragraph go at that.
Any of you guys that have the tri-jet would be real happy with his new dual log powerjet. You guys should call him and ask him what he would charge to build you one. I am very impressed with the new jet and it wouldn’t be too hard to modify the tri-jet into a powerjet. Also doing away with the 1½” Blue lay flat hose this year really helped with the performance and quality of this dredge.
I know that I keep saying this but I am happy with the way the dredge ran when I sold it. Unfortunately it was everything that I had to do to it, to get it running right, that turned me against keeping it. I mean it was basically just sitting under a tarp all summer because of the jet and after the day of plug up after plug up in the bent jet I was fed up... I haven’t run a dredge without an oversized flare in years and I never liked that set up.
This is a list of the top 10 things that I think he should do to the 4B to make it better.
1) Modify the unibody and go ahead and turn it into a dredge with an oversized powerjet with a quick hose coupling.
2) I would increase the width of the jet flare into the box up to 14” from the 9½” that it is now, add another 6” of length to the flare and lose one of the dovetails in the riffle tray. Personally I don’t see the need for any more than 3 different riffles of each type to catch the different types of gold; and that would give him the extra length needed to do the flare. If he changed to a rolled metal for the angle iron riffles he could also cut a lot off of the overall weight.
3) He needs to get rid of the ribbed matting that he uses for a damper because it isn’t thick enough or flexible enough to properly do the job. The water’s surface inside the sluice box can be well protected from oil and gas by a good extended damper, so there is no need for a drip pan.
4) Being that the dredge doesn’t need to run at full throttle he should change the size of the compressor pulley to make it work for 2 people. I think it’s a 2” pulley on the motor and a 7” pulley on the compressor and he rates the compressor at 1700rpm. If you are running at ¾ throttle then the compressor pulley could be dropped to as small as 4” or to a 2 to 1 ratio.
5) He might not need the heavy duty spring for the pop off either because there is no need to make it a higher pressure compressor unless it’s for some regulators which require more air pressure; it just needs to be made into a higher volume compressor by increasing the rpm’s. Maybe have 2-stage pulley that could be turned over from the 4” to 6” when you are changing from one person to two. You would just need another belt and pulley either way.
6) He needs to realize that the air hose that he is selling with his dredge is not good enough to sell to people to breathe through. He can call Keene, Proline, or Pioneer for that matter and they can explain to him the difference if he doesn’t already know. Being out in the sticks he may have never heard of people using breathing hose before.
7) For the 4B because of the lack of extra flotation I would also go to a small 12” round air tank that couldn’t be caught by the current like the soda-pop canisters handles. I really like the Soda-pop canisters but they are just not perfect for this dredge and if it’s not mounted on the top of the 4B it tries to help submarine it in real swift current.
8) I would also lower the motor deeper inside of the sluice box. It could be lowered as much as 3” give or take and that would really change the overall balance of this dredge for the good. You guys can make your own motor mounts easy enough to do this also, but it is just one of the other “miner” things that I noticed I would be doing if I had kept this dredge for myself.
9) He should go ahead and provide a hose bib for the blaster nozzle.
10) And last but not least, I would do away with the bent nozzle as an option.
I had bought this one for my son so it had to be perfect and I had high hopes...
Will I ever buy another Dahlke Micro 4B?
In another 10 to 15 years, when I can’t carry in a full sized dredge anymore myself, Yes I will.
In response to Reply # 8
Mon Nov-07-05 12:23 PM by Zooka
Reed and all, I'm short of time, going out of town for the week tomorrow early after being gone all weekend, but one quick thing I'd say is that as for the problem with the slurry going to one side or the other when the hose is bent at the body, the main reason I think I had not noticed it is that I dredge alone, in other words I am not able to look at the sluice while I am sucking up gravel. I had noticed one time and one time only upon shutdown that the riffles seemed to be loaded on one side and bare on the other, but hadnt been able to see why; and it only happened that once... I sort of naturally kept the hose as straight as possible where it entered the dredge, but didnt really think beyond that.
And I think that this is true of the other 4B users here, they are solo dredgers mostly. You and I noticed the deflection of the slurry when the hose was kinked over right off the bat, in fact you told me what to look for that day we first set up, as you'd noticed it before, and wanted my input. But we had that hose kinked over to demonstrate it; when I was dredging with it later that didnt happen becvause I made sure the hose was going in straight.
THis problem can be avioded if you dredge with your hose pulled out straight where it hits the dredge, not all cocked over to one side at the dredge.
Having said that, it is indeed not the best situation! and is a design problem, and the new dual log powerjet fixes that problem, and good eyes on you to spot the situation.
Interesting idea about modifying the midjet to work like the powerjet, might have to try that, will check with local muffler shops.
And I like your division of 4 inchers into 3 categories ( though you left the 4 inch bazooka out of the category C...). One thing I have noticed about 4B users, as I said above, is they tend to dredge solo more than other dredgers. And if I were choosing between dredging solo or with another person, and wanted more gold at the end of the day, using that lighter dredge and keeping 100% of the take would sure be attractive compared to splitting 50/50 using a class A 4 incher.
Still, the 4B WON'T do everything that the bigger dredges do, that is why Bob makes the 2 varieties of 4 incher. It may need modifications to do some jobs that the bigger ones can do stock, but ALL dredges will need to be modified to do some tasks better, as dredges are generally sold to be multi-use compromises. Why, even you, Reed, drastically modified your Proline, with the custom over/under sluice "modification" and 6 foot DFS style extension you made.
Now I have to take issue with this statement you made:
"Because I definitely don’t pull the punches and I explained all of the problems that I saw with my mid-jet and the motor and how to fix them to Bob myself, all I can do here is ask... What happened? I know a few of you guys must have seen the same things that I did this year, years ago. Where were ya? Why didn’t you speak to Bob about them back then or put them here on the forum so that someone else could pick up the ball? I know that a lot of you did speak up about a number of things like the Brown compressor but the hose connection was too obvious for anyone to have missed."
I guess the answer to your question of why us other owners didnt mention the things you have brought up is twofold; first, we did mention a lot of things we obbserved, and second, that we are not as experienced, or maybe we dont require the same things that you do from a dredge. I hope that yall dont think I am a super dredger of vast experience, because I am NOT, nor have I ever held myself out to be so. I've been a miner and a prospector full-time professionally, and for fun, but never tried to even pay for gas with a dredge. Just dont live in the right place. Similar stories with the other guys here.
I am puzzled at your comments about who spotted what problems and when, though. I had no idea about the air hose problem because it basically didnt say it WASNT breathing hose, so you get the prize for knowing that one. THe sideways slurry problem I saw only once with mine, because normally I tried to set it so the hose stayed straight, seemed to be more common sense than a design flaw, and also I have seen similar problems with overloading one side of the sluice in dredges with much longer jets and flares. The flotation issue, well that has been talked about a lot. I for one dont have the big-dredge flotation requirements where I dredge, especially with the inner tube equipment trailer. The lack of included hose bib and the nylock nut issues I thought were cheezy and I pointed them out a couple of years ago when I got mine. The dampener issue I and others here discussed so much that you had already lined up a dampener before you got hold of your dredge as I recall. The bent jet design, well that one was a short lived experiment wasnt it? Just came out this spring. What a disaster, and you, I, and several others were appalled at the concept from the first time it was spoken about, to have a bent jet in the middle of the hose like a suction nozzle.
The engine problem you had was recent also; mine from 2 yrs ago doesnt have it (knock on wood).
THe issue of whether to add a metal plate under the matting is an old one, and there are owners who feel pro and con on the matter and have discussed that question for a long time. Same with the miners moss versus the stock carpet.
So I guess my answer to your statement is that most of the issues you mention with the dredge were indeed identified here on this forum before you got yours. Of the ones that were not, the blue hose was a very important good catch by you, the engine throttle spring issue and the bent jet issue were ID'd before you got yours at least to some degree, (you knew enough about the engine problem to ask Bob to check your machine out to be sure it didnt have the problem, and by June we knew the bent jet wasnt working, which is why I brought my midjet in my suitcase for us to use on the moderator's outing) but unfortunately these problems were sufficient to keep you from using the machine (understandably) for most of the season. And also the flotation situation IMHO is an important enough issue for you and your son, where you guys dredge, that you were justified to get rid of the dredge; to attempt add-ons of pontoons and outriggers, is a half-baked solution to that particular problem.
I've dredged some with 4 inch and 5 inch Keenes and Prolines , single and dual- engines, and the performance of my 4B on these poor Texas rivers was comparable, suction and recovery wise. NOT the SAME, mind you, especially comparing volume and suction of 4B to the twin engine 5s, here and out in Cali, but the 4B's volume and suction was adequate and comparable. I had Brown/Federal compressor problems with mine( see archives) but Bob was using the Brown instead of the T-80 because it was BETTER than the Thomas; before Federal bought Brown they were thought to be superior to the Thomas. The people with older Browns have a great compressor that by all accounts outperforms the T-80, and when mine was working it supported 2 of us in shallow water as well as or better than the T-80. THe fact that Federal screwed up the compressor and Bob had to stop using them is, well, bad luck for him and for me. THe new compressor, well so far so good.
Anyway, Got to scoot but wanted to throw these thoughts out. I started this thread with that provocative title because lots of people lurk and have questions about dredges, and this thread ought to give them many sides of the story on this particular dredge, in one easy read.
Thanks to all of you guys for chipping in, especially Reed for his well-organized, and passionate arguments. I most certainly do NOT want to get anyone in the boat he is in, feeling really let down and abused by his dredge purchase, and I thank him for letting us know all the negatives before someone else gets into that position. -Zooka
And here is the original link
Prospectors Cache Forum - Viewing topic #1140 - Should you buy a 4B?
