Shipwreck salvage article, Tampa Bay Times newspaper 12/1/2015

[G.I.B.]

[h=1][/h]Tampa Bay Times newspaper article, 12/1/2015.

Link here







The article in part states:

MIAMI — The Spanish galleon San José was overloaded with 200 passengers and 700 tons of cargo on a summer night in 1631 when it smashed into a rock off the Pacific coast of Panama, spilling silver coins and bars into the Gulf of Panama. More than 400,000 coins and at least 1,417 bars were lost over a 40-mile trail.
Four hundred years later, that shipwreck has become one of the latest to land in a legal quagmire over who should have the rights to historic artifacts trapped under the sea. This one involves the United Nations, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, the government of Panama and Americans accused of being pirates. At issue is whether private companies should be able to claim and profit from historic treasures.
Those questions are of particular interest to businesses in South Florida at a time when technology is making it easier to find and recover sunken loot. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration estimates that there are more than 1,000 shipwrecks in the Florida Keys alone.
In the case of the San José booty, commercial treasure hunters, financed in part by an adventure entrepreneur who runs tours to the Titanic, spent over $2 million and 10 years recovering portions of the treasure, only to see their permits questioned and bounty confiscated.
"They called us thieves, looters, plunderers and pirates," said Dan Porter, a Florida captain who led the expedition to find the San José. "That's an insult. I hold this work in the highest regard."
But the industry is engaged in a battle with academic marine archaeologists and UNESCO, the Paris-based U.N. agency that tries to protect cultural treasures around the world. Critics say buried coins and loot should be studied and preserved in a museum, not sported around an investor's neck.
"Treasure hunters are to maritime archaeologists what astrologers are to astronomers," said Filipe Castro, a nautical archaeologist at Texas A&M University.


GME and Odyssey are both mentioned near the end of the article. Hit the link, top of page, for the complete article.

 

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[ARC]

"In October, Goold sent notice to a Tampa company, Global Marine Exploration, which is looking for ships from a 1715 Spanish fleet lost in a hurricane, warning that Spain has not given up its rights long-lost vessels."

----------------------

"You should look at these more like an airplane crash or car crash," said James J. Sinclair, a marine archaeologist hired by IMDI to evaluate the finds. "You don't leave them at the side of the road and preserve them forever."

I would have also added "and leaving it alone"... preserves NOTHING ... the earth has her way of "taking it back"...
WE must preserve it by recovery and stabilizing.

 

[bay pirate]

What's lost here is that every ounce of the gold, silver, wealth of the travelers were all stolen, pirated, marauded and or plundered from the cultural heritage from the native Americans from South, Central and North Americas. It's funny how Spain looses that perspective when it benefits them

 

[AUVnav]

"You should look at these more like an airplane crash or car crash," said James J. Sinclair, a marine archaeologist hired by IMDI to evaluate the finds. "You don't leave them at the side of the road and preserve them forever."

I would have also added "and leaving it alone"... preserves NOTHING ... the earth has her way of "taking it back"...
WE must preserve it by recovery and stabilizing.

What exactly does using a mailbox blower preserve?

Remember the Mercedes ruling by the Court?

"As explained elsewhere in this order, the record establishes beyond peradventure that Odyssey in bad faith and for an improper purpose manufactured and maintained a frivolous and vexatious position throughout this litigation."

"Odyssey went where it went because it knew full well where to go; Odyssey found what it found because it knew full well what it was looking for; Odyssey withheld and deceived and deflected with respect to what it found because Odyssey knew full well why Spain was asking and knew full well the adverse consequence to Odyssey’s financial aspirations if Spain discovered the answer. To come to court and deny the truth of these facts is, as stated earlier, an unacceptable enormity propounded and maintained in bad faith and for an improper purpose."

 

[Jolly Mon]

The stratigraphy so crucial to terrestrial archaeology for revealing context, relative chronology and successive layers of occupation is essentially meaningless in regards shipwrecks.

What matters are the finds.

It matters not one wit where anchor "A" was found in relation to cannonball "B".

Nautical archaeology is basically bull promoted by self important bullshit artists.

.

 

[Boatlode]

Why is DHS boarding boats and seizing legal property of American citizens? Don't they have enough to do catching muslim terrorists in our country?

 

[Galleon Hunter]

Jolly Mon

"It matters not one wit where anchor "A" was found in relation to cannonball "B".

Not necessarily so at all. The wrecking event is an entire process. You can learn a lot of valuable information by properly documenting a site. By conducting a proper archaeological on the German U-boat U-166 and S.S. Robert E. Lee and associated debris fields we have been able to determine the exact sequence of events that let to the sinking of both vessels. By plotting life boat "A" with shell casing "B" so to speak and applying some mathematical equations we can determine what courses they were heading, how fast each vessel was traveling, where the first torpedo struck, what sort of evasive action was made, where the ships were in relation to one another when the second torpedo struck and the subsequent actions of PC 566, the escort patrol craft that in turn sunk the U-166.

People had been looking for the U-166, the only German U-boat lost in the Gulf of Mexico for more than 50 years. Unfortunately most were looking 120 miles away, based on a location where a flying patrol boat dropped a depth charge on a suspected u-boat. The pilot and co-pilot were credited with sinking the U-166 and given medals for their actions. Meanwhile the naval officers aboard PC 566 were reprimanded for their actions and sent to receive additional training on how to properly deploy depth charges. The nautical archaeology that you say is "basically bull promoted by self important bullshit artists" found both wreck sites and by properly documenting the sites, determined exactly what transpired. The U-166 and Robert E. Lee are less than 2 miles apart in more than 5,000 feet of water.

Fittingly because of the work of marine archaeologist LCDR Herbert G. Claudius, the commander of PC 566 was credited with sinking the U-166 and awarded the Legion of Merit with a Combat "V" for heroism in battle on December 16, 2014. Although this was awarded posthumously I am sure his family appreciates the efforts the archaeologists did in righting a wrong and setting the record strait. I doubt that they would agree with your assessment that "nautical archaeology is basically bull."

 

[Jolly Mon]

Jolly Mon

"It matters not one wit where anchor "A" was found in relation to cannonball "B".

Not necessarily so at all. The wrecking event is an entire process. You can learn a lot of valuable information by properly documenting a site. By conducting a proper archaeological on the German U-boat U-166 and S.S. Robert E. Lee and associated debris fields we have been able to determine the exact sequence of events that let to the sinking of both vessels. By plotting life boat "A" with shell casing "B" so to speak and applying some mathematical equations we can determine what courses they were heading, how fast each vessel was traveling, where the first torpedo struck, what sort of evasive action was made, where the ships were in relation to one another when the second torpedo struck and the subsequent actions of PC 566, the escort patrol craft that in turn sunk the U-166.

People had been looking for the U-166, the only German U-boat lost in the Gulf of Mexico for more than 50 years. Unfortunately most were looking 120 miles away, based on a location where a flying patrol boat dropped a depth charge on a suspected u-boat. The pilot and co-pilot were credited with sinking the U-166 and given medals for their actions. Meanwhile the naval officers aboard PC 566 were reprimanded for their actions and sent to receive additional training on how to properly deploy depth charges. The nautical archaeology that you say is "basically bull promoted by self important bullshit artists" found both wreck sites and by properly documenting the sites, determined exactly what transpired. The U-166 and Robert E. Lee are less than 2 miles apart in more than 5,000 feet of water.

Fittingly because of the work of marine archaeologist LCDR Herbert G. Claudius, the commander of PC 566 was credited with sinking the U-166 and awarded the Legion of Merit with a Combat "V" for heroism in battle on December 16, 2014. Although this was awarded posthumously I am sure his family appreciates the efforts the archaeologists did in righting a wrong and setting the record strait. I doubt that they would agree with your assessment that "nautical archaeology is basically bull."

If the process of following a debris field is "nautical archaeology"...send me my degree. I have real world experience and should certainly qualify.

My point, of course, was simply that applying the principles of land archaeology to a shipwreck site rarely yields any meaningful information. Recovery and proper excavation of the artifacts themselves is the crucial step and, if properly done, will allow what is essentially a time capsule to be reconstructed at the surface. This does not require a doctorate.

 

[Salvor6]

Galleon Hunter the U-166 and the Robert E. Lee have not been disturbed by wind, waves or humans for over 70 years. Now take the 1715 fleet. After more than 40 years of careful excavation, record keeping and analysis by some of the state's best archaeologists they still cannot positively identify the identity of any of the wrecks found.

 

[Galleon Hunter]

Pete, there are still forces at work. Deepwater sites are impacted by current, trawling activities, natural decay, biological destruction, etc. He stated "It matters not one wit where anchor "A" was found in relation to cannonball "B". That is not true even in a high energy environment. You say "After more than 40 years of careful excavation, record keeping and analysis" that is not necessarily accurate either. Very little was done "archaeologically" in the early days on the fleet. Minimal at best in the early days. McKee used dynamite on Sandy Point in 1955 for example. (That does not = careful excavation) then in the years since things improved, but the technology wasn't there yet for accurate data recording. Working on the boat with Bob Weller and trying to take sextant readings on beach markers from a rocking boat isn't exactly accurate, (no knock on him or anyone else, it was the best technology available at the time, but even so, these methods pale in comparison to what is available today. Record keeping, that is another matter that in some cases is non-existent. We've all heard of certain salvors keeping a double set of log books, one with real data and another that was what was turned in. Other material has been kept, disappeared etc. over time. Was the gold dragon found in the water or on the beach? Lot's of various versions of events. That doesn't equal accurate record keeping. And the fact that "some of the state's best archaeologist still cannot positively identify any of the wrecks." When is the last time a state archaeologist actually dove a 1715 fleet wreck site? You certainly are not going to figure anything out sitting at a desk in Tallahassee. You need to dive the sites and know them.
My major bone of contention with the earlier comment was it doesn't matter where things are in relation to one another, and yes it matters and is of major importance. Just ask Jonah and Bill and the Schmitts, John Brandon and everyone else that has ever had success working the 1715 Fleet. They keep meticulous records, plot every cannonball, anchor, etc. EVERYTHING no matter how big or how small and seemingly insignificant and from the relationship each object has to one another, they are able to follow a trail, even though the vessel that left that trail has long since been obliterated by wave action and currents. Accurate recording is fundamental.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Is plotting a GPS coordinate your idea of a "meticulous record" in the archaelogcal sense?

If so, I can roll with it.

But once again, my statement was in regards the application of the principles of terrestrial archaeology to shipwrecks. This entails grids and the precise 3 dimensional location of artifacts in relation to one another. It is my contention that this sort of painstaking excavation is massive overkill in the context of a shipwreck.

 

[Galleon Hunter]

Jolly Mon

It can be on certain sites. However all shipwrecks are different and you wouldn't apply the same methods to say a broken up vessel in a high energy surf zone and an intact schooner lying on the bottom of Lake Michigan.

Even your example of using a grid is fast becoming obsolete, now with multi-beam bathymetry, precision lasers for measuring, AutoCad programs, GIS spatial capabilities, 3-d plotting and software and next generation technology such as Fledermaus 4-D geo-spatial processing and analysis tools readily available, these advances have sent grids and tape measures down the path of the dinosaur. No painstaking excavation and massive overkill... the use of new technology gathers better, more accurate data in a fraction of this time one would have spend gridding and measuring a site the old fashioned way with tapes and plumb bobs.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Pump your brakes papi......

Jolly Mon

The nautical archaeology that you say is "basically bull promoted by self important bullshit artists" found both wreck sites and by properly documenting the sites, determined exactly what transpired. The U-166 and Robert E. Lee are less than 2 miles apart in more than 5,000 feet of water.

Originally I was going to bait you with.... WOW amazing story! But the 64k question is WHO paid for this and HOW MUCH did it cost? I didn't know archaeologists owned such equipment....

But let's just get right to it!

Just the facts, ma'am......

Most importantly setting aside the original statement of "basically bull promoted by self important bullshit artists" .

The truth of the "story" is that private sector found the U-166 and Robert E. Lee.
Let me repeat that in-case the jury wasn't paying attention....

"private sector found the U-166 and Robert E. Lee."

The other truths of the story is that there was no formal archaeology expedition to go find those wrecks. There was no wreck site reconstruction of debris fields to "prove" the pre-sinking events that led to the revision of GOVERNMENT SCREWING UP OF FACTS that then rightfully awarded Claudius his due reward.

So to the jury I submit my evidence....

Thomas and Jim Chance were raised in the survey business helping their father build the largest privately-owned and most technically advanced survey company in the world. That company, John E. Chance and Associates, developed a variety of the offshore survey applications still in use today including, satellite positioning, pipeline tracking, shallow-water multibeam bathymetry, and database management.

Following in the pioneering footsteps of their father, Thomas and Jim formed C & C Technologies in 1992 and have continued the family tradition of advancing survey technology.
Today, C & C employs more than 500 professionals all over the world.
C & C Technologies is headquartered in Lafayette, Louisiana, "The Heart of Cajun Country”,
and has offices strategically positioned worldwide in Houston, Seattle, Singapore, Brazil,
Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, and the United Kingdom.


In 1986, while conducting a deep tow survey for Shell International Exploration
& Production, Inc. in the Mississippi Canyon Area of the Gulf of Mexico, a
survey team from John Chance and Associates detected two shipwrecks. These wrecks were
identified as the Robert E. Lee and another U-boat casualty, the Alcoa Puritan,which was
sunk by U-507 on May 6, 1942.

In January 2001, C & C Technologies, Inc. (C & C) conducted a deep-water pipeline survey for
Shell International Exploration & Production, Inc. and British Petroleum (BP) Amoco in the
vicinity of the reported location of the Robert E.Lee. This survey was conducted using
C & C’s new HUGIN 3000 (High Precision Untethered Geosurvey and Inspection System).

During the January survey, a large shipwreck was detected at the edge of the
HUGIN’s survey corridor. C & C Marine Archaeologists Robert A. Church and
Daniel J. Warren identified this vessel as the Robert E. Lee . Because of the possible proximity of the Robert E. Lee and the Alcoa Puritan thought to be nearby to the route, it was determined by Shell that C & C would conduct an investigation survey to precisely position any wreckage in the area in relation to the proposed pipeline route. This survey was conducted in March 2001.

Further investigation of the sites was done by Robert Ballard (not an "archaeologist")


Dan Warren: "It wasn’t a planned mission to go out and search for a U-boat. There was no set
scientific expedition in 2001. We were doing a survey that was part of our normal job, a
pipeline survey. And it just so happens, Rob had an interest in the U-166 since he came on at
C&C, and we always kind of looked at data just in case. And when we started looking through
the data, we were expecting to see the remains of a 6,000-ton tanker [the Alcoa Puritan], and
what we actually saw was a much smaller target that did not match what I was expecting to
see. That’s when it started to click that–what’s going on here? I started thinking about what
Rob had told me. It’s [U-166] going to be somewhat of a cigar-shaped target, and that’s when
I wrote and I copied the photo, the sonar record, and put it on the desk because I knew this
was something. Now, whether it would turn out to be the U-166, I didn’t know at that time."

Rob Church: "At that point, I took the schematic of a type IX U-boat and made an overlay of
it and printed it out on transparency at the same scale as the sonar image that we had. When
I slid the two together, the details matched up perfectly. So, at that point we knew it was a
90% deal that we had the U-166.

Basically for nearly 60 years, recorded history indicated that the U-boat was sunk 140 miles
to the west up on the shelf. Now we’re looking at it in deep water–then we had to try to
explain why it’s there."

In an effort to uncover what had actually taken place almost 60 years earlier, Rob Church
then pored over German U-boat logs from the war. He found a log from the Captain of U-171,
which was eventually sunk off France after leaving the Gulf of Mexico. The Captain said that
on or about August 1, they had been bombed by a “flying boat”–an apt description of the Coast
Guard aircraft that had been credited for sinking U-166. Rob Church and Dan Warren realized
they had the missing piece of the puzzle, and that two different U-boats had been involved in
the attacks in the Gulf.

Church: "People had been looking for this boat for years. For almost 60 years this U-boat
had been missing somewhere out in the Gulf of Mexico. So when we looked at this and [it]
really started to sink in that we may have found it, that was a little overwhelming really,
and it was exciting."

Warren: "It was kind of unbelievable–we didn’t believe we could get this lucky. To not only
come across the U-boat on the sea floor, but be able to come up and find the supporting
documentation in the historical record and really have a rare moment that very few
archaeologists or historians have of changing what is written in the history books".

Church: "As is most often the case, and it was the case with U-166, discovery is not an
event, it’s a process, and this was definitely a process, and it involved not just two young
archaeologists that got lucky, but it was a team of folks– the people that went out and
collected the data, the surveyors, the technicians, the engineers, the managers that planned
those surveys."

So to surmise....
Private sector while working on their dime found these wrecks. Employees of theirs, two archaeologists AND "a team of folks" did the follow up work and solved the "mystery".

The private sector company continued to spend money on further surveys and then an additional private sector entity did further research.

ALL the information gained was voluntarily funded with private sector dollars. The operation wasn't muddled by bureaucrats. The peoples of the world get to benefit from it.

To me what this shows is the importance of the private sector. I'm not even going to say that it shows how "archaeologists" and the private sector can work together for mutual benefit, because that is a "misnomer". Some archaeologists ARE the private sector.

That old battle cry of archaeologists vs private sector is as old as the things we study. When in fact we have worked together in the past very well. Has it been perfect? Nothing is.

 

[hobbit]

C.S.S. Hunley was discovered by novelist-adventurer Clive Cussler.

It was plucked from the bottom of the sea by the U.S. Navy.

It was subsequently placed in a conservation lab and has been studied by some of the world's foremost archealogists ever since.

13 years after being placed in the laboratory, these razor sharp academics figured out that the sub's torpedo did not completely detach from it's spar upon detonation.

13 YEARS later.

All while being studied in a lab.

No wonder they favor in situ preservation !

Honestly, I am not as we'll read as some of you guys, but I can't think of that many earth shattering revelations that have emerged from the discipline of nautical archaeology as practised by the qualified degreed crowd.

Meanwhile, the rotting 1964 Cris Craft in my neighbor's back yard is a priceless historic artifact...

 

[capt dom]

Actually this statement is wrong:

That old battle cry of archaeologists vs private sector is as old as the things we study. When in fact we have worked together in the past very well. Has it been perfect? Nothing is.

Archaeologists as "archeologists" haven't been around all that long... The field as an expertise evolved from the ancient profession of "GRAVE ROBBING" that evolved next into the field of "Egyptology" Now why don't the folks at UNESCO call themselves what they really are: "institutionalized grave robbers with a licence to steal in the name of the public trust"

Now, explorers have also been around for a long time but the thieves who state they are attempting to protect the public interest label us as dastardly treasure hunters or pirates!

 

[Dr. Syn]

If you think about it, it's the perfect scheme. You let others do all the work, then swoop in and collect the goodies.
I've said it before, it's how govt agencies work. "Oh sure go look all you want.", followed by, "Oh you found treasure, well sorry that's historic, you can't have it" "But thanks for recovering it, documenting it, and restoring it." That's if you are lucky. If you aren't, they will arrest you, confiscate all your stuff, and sue you.

Then they get grants and funding, paid for by us tax payers, to "study" said items.

What a deal, spend nothing, let others do all the work, get treasure, and then get paid to look at it. Where do I sign up?

I may be a straw brained scarecrow, but if I find it, I ain't about to let anyone know about it. You'll just see my post in the field empty one day, and I'll be hanging out at some Tiki bar in the Pacific watching over the lovely ladies at the beach. Finders keepers, losers weepers is my motto.

Sorry but a country "claiming" a treasure that their ancestors used slave labor for, murdered folks over, and just outright stole from others, is not something they should have a right to. Be like a robber claiming money he stole from a bank, just because he at one time had possession of it.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

What exactly does using a mailbox blower preserve?

Well, it is a piece of equipment that is used in the recovery process of shipwreck artifacts.

Therefore it has helped in the preservation of, with the exception of 1 coin, about 23,000 shipwreck coins that the state of Florida has in their collection. Then there are the artifacts....

The private sector salvage donation changes (read increases) the collection every year, but the point of interest is that only 1 coin from shipwreck recoveries that is in the state collection was recovered by a state archaeologist!!

I doubt the state number has changed since this fact held true.

 

[gord]

C.S.S. Hunley was discovered by novelist-adventurer Clive Cussler.

Actually, the H.L.Hunley was discovered and reported by E. Lee Spence, and was a matter of public record 20-25 years before Cussler 'found' it.

 

[AUVnav]

Well, it is a piece of equipment that is used in the recovery process of shipwreck artifacts.

Absolutely not. It is a crude piece of machinery used by treasure hunters who have no interest in anything but the large pieces of heavy metals ie gold/silver.

It obliterates context, the foundation of the provenance of artifacts. Most artifacts are blown away in the process.

The blower is a tool for underwater scrap metal scavengers...nothing more, nothing less.

There is nothing wrong with this, just call it what it is.

 

[ARC]

Absolutely not. It is a crude piece of machinery used by treasure hunters who have no interest in anything but the large pieces of heavy metals ie gold/silver.

It obliterates context, the foundation of the provenance of artifacts. Most artifacts are blown away in the process.

The blower is a tool for underwater scrap metal scavengers...nothing more, nothing less.

There is nothing wrong with this, just call it what it is.

NAV I think you are living in the past on these things sometimes.
The days of the "gung ho" crazies just blowing holes and crap all over the place are long gone.
It is like any other tool... it all depends on who running it.
Moving sand that is several feet to yards thick is a task no other tool can achieve.
There is a time and a place for every tool.
IF used correctly and in a non aggressive manner it can slowly move sand only.

No other tool has been as significant in the location and recovery of ancient shipwrecks. PERIOD.

BTW... other similar inventions exists that are far better for detailed recovery.
The invention of the mailbox inspired these inventions...
Too bad they currently sit in storage units and have never been "put to use"...
This is a direct result of the laws that prevented the good guys from continuing on.
Had there been a sane approach to the laws concerning shipwreck salvage we would have had these inventions for delicate sand removal in use long ago.

And I don't blame them for letting inventions rot.
See... I happen to know many don't care about the money and the "pats on the back".

I mean come on... well all know the truth here...
There is far more money to be made through controlling a wreck as opposed to selling it.
In layman's terms... Marketing a wreck is far more lucrative than salvaging one.

Its the ole "Why sell the cow when you can sell the milk"...
It is nothing more than money making / grant getting... hidden by "saving history".

Like you say... LETS CALL IT WHAT IT IS !