Shell casing ID

[kenb]

The casing is 1.75" long, .50" inner diameter. Its a center fire casing but doesn't have a primer. The firing pin that struck the casing was square if thats any help. It was found by Dgaughan on the same property as the King George II Irish half penny that PBK ID'ed, date range 1736 to 1760. Thanks for any input. I cant get a pic up until Monday or Tuesday.

kenb

 

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[kenb]

I originally posted this as a brass shell, but as I clean it I would swear its copper? Anyone ever heard of a copper shell casing before? If so that may help put a date range on it.

kenb

 

[blurr]

The casing is 1.75" long, .50" inner diameter. Its a center fire casing but doesn't have a primer. The firing pin that struck the casing was square if thats any help. It was found by Dgaughan on the same property as the King George II Irish half penny that PBK ID'ed, date range 1736 to 1760. Thanks for any input. I cant get a pic up until Monday or Tuesday.

kenb

Spencer rifles used rimfire cartridges. And I believe that they chambered rifles in .50 calibre. This would have been a cartridge from the mid to late eighteen hundreds though.

John

 

[dkw]

Are you sure it's a centerfire? If the primer is missing there should be a hole in the center and you wouldn't be able to tell the shape of the firing pin. It sounds to me like it might be a rimfire. Is the firing pin indentation at the edge of the case head?

I don't know the exact dimensions of the cartridge, but it sounds similar to the dimensions of the 50-70 centerfire.
What does the headstamp(if any) have on it? There were several 50 caliber rimfires used during the war and in the following years.

 

[blurr]

Are you sure it's a centerfire? If the primer is missing there should be a hole in the center and you wouldn't be able to tell the shape of the firing pin. It sounds to me like it might be a rimfire. Is the firing pin indentation at the edge of the case head?

I don't know the exact dimensions of the cartridge, but I would lean towards something akin to the .50 rimfire from the 2nd model Allin conversion of the Springfield musket.

That could very well be right. Need to know if it is centerfire or rimfire though. Good call.

John

 

[kenb]

There is NO doubt its a centerfire cartridge, there is no hole where a primer could have been just a solid squarish hit from a firing pin dead center in the base of the shell. I'm sure its .50 cal. due to the inner dia. of the shell. There does not appear to be any writing on the shell that I can find. thanks again for your help.

kenb

 

[blurr]

There is NO doubt its a centerfire cartridge, there is no hole where a primer could have been just a solid squarish hit from a firing pin dead center in the base of the shell. I'm sure its .50 cal. due to the inner dia. of the shell. There does not appear to be any writing on the shell that I can find. thanks again for your help.

kenb

If you are sure there is no hole in the cartridge case, then it is in fact a rimfire cartridge. With rimfire cartridges, the whole base of the cartride had the priming material, instead of a centerfire cartridge where a primer is seated in the center of the base of the cartridge. If the entire base is smooth except where you say the firing pin hit, then again it probably is a rimfire cartridge. Take a close look though where you said the firing pin hit, it could just have crud in it.


John
John

 

[kenb]

John, it is so clear where the firing pin struck and such dead center that its just not possible it could be rimfire. Unless the cartridge wasn't seated in the chamber and sticking up and out, but There's no way the weapon could have been fired in that state. My camera is at my office, I'll try and scan it so you can see for yourself.

kenb

 

[blurr]

John, it is so clear where the firing pin struck and such dead center that its just not possible it could be rimfire. Unless the cartridge wasn't seated in the chamber and sticking up and out, but There's no way the weapon could have been fired in that state. My camera is at my office, I'll try and scan it so you can see for yourself.

kenb

Sorry, don't want to get you upset. If it's a centerfire cartridge though, it is very clear to see. Here is a rimfire cartridge that I found on the internet. If I am wrong as to what is a centerfire cartridge as opposed to a rimfire one, please correct me. Nothing like having a guy keep proclaiming he is right when he is dead wrong.

John

 

[blurr]

centerfire cartridge.

John

 

[kenb]

Not upset at all!! , I've been around guns along time. I know exactly what your talking about and wish you could see this thing. I'm still trying to get my scanner set up, if I cant get it scanned I'll PM you when the pics are up, thanks

kenb

 

[kenb]

I think I got it, BENET-PRIMED - A common style of inside-primed car-tridge developed by Col. S.V Benet commander of Frankford Arsenal in the late 1860s. It was used extensively in early U.S. military ammunition. A copper or iron cup was secured inside the head of the case by characteristic crimps. This cup served as an anvil to enable the firing pin to activate the priming mixture and also to reinforce the head of the case.

kenb

 

[blurr]

I think I got it, BENET-PRIMED - A common style of inside-primed car-tridge developed by Col. S.V Benet commander of Frankford Arsenal in the late 1860s. It was used extensively in early U.S. military ammunition. A copper or iron cup was secured inside the head of the case by characteristic crimps. This cup served as an anvil to enable the firing pin to activate the priming mixture and also to reinforce the head of the case.

kenb

I think you got it Ken. Do you know what it is classified as though? Centerfire or Rimfire? I'm curious about all things gun related.

John

 

[kenb]

No I'm not sure of an exact classification, its obviously hit in the center but uses a rimfire style primer. I'll keep looking and post with the pics.

kenb

 

[dkw]

BAR ANVIL-PRIMED – An early type of inside-primed cartridge (patented by E.H.Martin, evolved from #48,820, 7-1-1865) in which a short bar of iron is transverse to the base of the cartridge and secured by distinctive crimps. This bar serves as an anvil, against which the firing pin can impact to cause ignition.


I would bet you're right on the Benet priming. Might try a magnet on it though just to make sure.

Mind if I ask where you found it?

 

[dkw]

Disregard my last. I aint nun 2 brite sumtymes. Now that I looked again, I see you already said where it was found.

 

[kenb]

The base of the cartridge very much resembles the Benet, it crimps in some about an 1/4" above the base. It was found on eastern Long Island (east Marion) I believe.

kenb

 

[junkdigger]

I have found Martin primed,Benet primed,and another (can't remember the name) type of .50-70 shell cases in Idaho. They are all center fire. The firing pin hits the center of the base and it goes bang.These cartridges were early types that didn't last long.They were not all that successful.The ones with copper cases often failed to extract,making the rifle unusable until the broken case could be extracted with a tool provided with the rifle. Boxer primers are what we use today in this country,and they were introduced at about the time when the .45-70 cartridge came into use.The .45-70 was a better cartridge with longer range,better penetration,and with boxer primers and brass cases,more reliable.

 

[kenb]

Thanks for the info junkdigger, did the ones you found have any markings on them? this ones got nothing I can find.

kenb

 

[junkdigger]

No,the .50-70s that I found had no marks.I have found Spencer cases,and no marks on them either. I have found Henry rifle cases and SOME of them had an "H" on them. I'm a long time gun nut,and these found shell cases really spark my imagination. What happened here a hundred or so years ago?!