serious backer talking news blackout at this time---sorry folks---Ivan

ivan salis

ivan salis

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Feb 5, 2007
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Re: the state of florida answers about my amelia island pre NOV 1769 wreck site

Ivan,

Tough luck at this stage, but maybe not quite the end of the game. If smebody's ship sank in that area tomorrow, would the State be allowed to refuse permission for them to recover it ? That is the situation with Spanish wrecks in US waters. They have not been abandoned, and if their owner (Spain) wanted to recover them, or give a salvor permission to do so, would Florida have the right to refuse them permission to do so, even in an aquatic preserve?

I do not know if Spain would be willing to give permission, however, given her official stance on shipwrecks, as reflected in the fact that she signed the most recent UNESCO Treaty on cultural heritage preservation. However, before walking away from this one, I would think it worth having a discussion with Spain to establish the principle.

By the way, I am not sure that it is enough to deduce the location of a wreck in order to establish finder's rights to it. I think you have to produce evidence that you have actually located the wreck itself. I remember that you cannot dive yourself because of the asbestos exposure, but I would have thought you might be able to get somebody (perhaps from this forum) to go down and look at the area, to see if there is anything they could photograph for you without having to disturb the seabed. I am familiar with the contents of the Florida "research permit" through PegLeg's experience with his Ghost wreck, but I do not think Florida can stop you diving and photographing something, unless they have additional rules about aquatic preserves, and that seems unfair if they would be willing to grant permission to a non-profit organization. And,of course, you might want to consider a non-profit approach. Why not ask the Fishers if they would join you and fund a non-profit effort to find and recover the wreck, with the artifacts going into their non-profit museum, acknowledging your role? Non-profits can cover expenses and salaries: they are just not allowed to distribute profits.

Best wishes,

Mariner
 

Re: the state of florida answers about my amelia island pre NOV 1769 wreck site

So there sits your wreck to rot.or the state gets some university students and archies to work the wreck to get all the treasure if any and the artifacts.im sure no one will ever see them again.all in the name of education for future archies.nice work ivan.now find that pirate ship.
 

Re: the state of florida answers about my amelia island pre NOV 1769 wreck site

Ivan,
Here is something to consider and give serious thought to.
Have someone dive the wrecksite and video tape everything they see.
Once you have acquired PROFF that something is there.
Go to a Non-profit group and discuss this find in detail.
BUT RETAIN ALL RIGHTS TO VIDEO RECORD ANY AND ALL EXPLORATION DONE ON THIS SITE.
IF this wreck is what you think it is and parts show up on Video you can contract or sell the rights to a company to have them record what goes on.
This can be done IF YOU ARE PART OF THE NON-PROFIT CORPORATION-like the DIRECTOR of OPERATIONS.
Things will get a little sticky at times but so what- You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Give this some serious thought.
Peg leg
 

Re: the state of florida answers about my amelia island pre NOV 1769 wreck site

Hola: I agree in general, it is similar to some Detectorist's / Treasure hunters that do not use common sense or conform to normal moral or social behavior giving a bad name to all.

However, the hand writing is on the wall. As more Archaeologists are graduated they will be seeking jobs in a presently limited field. So the natural tendency is to eliminate what they have been taught to regard as an unwanted competetor, the untitled / untrained citizen, the detectorist or Treasure hunter. The very ones that they should be working hand in hand with and teaching them just what is needed for the mutual benefit of both.

Unfortunately they may be bent upon a suicidal road, since if they push for too strict enforcement laws in order to create more work for themselves, they will be stifling the independent Treasure hunter or Detectorist. The main one that has in the past been credited with most major Archaeological site discoveries and work for them..

Financing for independent efforts will be gradually be cut off, including the need for any Archaeologists being on / in a project since the projects will then become very limited in number due to the excessive costs for a full fledged expedition

I doubt that a single successful major sea or land research / exploration has been financed by any Gov't, state or Federal. So it basically all goes under the title of hypocrisy, just another way to generate capital at no expense or effort to themselves. Past and preset actions show that they actually do not care abut saving the past.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I apologize for simply pasting my post from another site, but it is pertinante.
 

Re: the state of florida answers about my amelia island pre NOV 1769 wreck site

well the way I view it is thus---state archie types and uni archie types seldom get to do real in the "feild" work since it "cost" both time and money to do it ---so very seldom do they get to do a "actual" recovery of a wreck site --because of "tight" money times at the state and uni level there is often very little "actual" field work done ---- and these days with more and more archies graduating yearly they "need" work for them to do to remain "gainfully" employed---and so they tend to "shut down" feild operations and work on slowing down the pace to "insure" that there will be work for "later" down the road for them to do--- in my veiw the best thing to do however is not to "shut down" recovery by salvage firms but rather to "encourge them" to do finds instead---just insist that a "trained" archie be part of the mix on working job sites --- this puts the "new" archies to work in the "feild" getting solid hands on work training---and it "protects" the wrecks by "making" sure that the work is done properly----and it gains great finds for the states historical collections for the "public" to actually be able "see"-- plus it lets the "treasure company" do gainful work that they need to stay in bussiness thus creating work and jobs (a tax plus for both the state and fed govts) ---it promotes tourism---folks like to see the "old" gold and "stuff" from the old ship wrecks always have and always will--- and by "promptly" recovering the wrecks it cuts down on illegal looting of the sites--- Ivan
 

Re: the state of florida answers about my amelia island pre NOV 1769 wreck site

Cappy Z,

Thanks for the posting. Some interesting, and probably misleading, statements in there about shipwrecks being public property etc., and it gives the impression that the State of Florida is a lot more benign and accommodating than Ivan is finding them to be.

Mariner
 

Re: the state of florida answers about my amelia island pre NOV 1769 wreck site

The video idea is good! otherwise an X-marked map spot is just that...the state library has an original copy of the map you're talking about along with many others you can go look at and make copies of, you can find it online. And they (state) have to respond to the site if it's eroding in some way. You get evidence of erosion or looting and they have to get over there imediately. For example-someone found a huge rudder with metal wrapping on the beach and called the guy at the lighthouse in St. Augustine. They went and got the thing, and are now displaying it at the lighthouse park-it's huge!
Anyway, keep hunting
Paddy
 

Re: the state of florida answers about my amelia island pre NOV 1769 wreck site

mariner said:
Cappy Z,

Thanks for the posting. Some interesting, and probably misleading, statements in there about shipwrecks being public property etc., and it gives the impression that the State of Florida is a lot more benign and accommodating than Ivan is finding them to be.

Mariner
Click to expand...
I agree. It's probably written this way on purpose, this way any poor unsuspecting shmuck that stumbles upon a wreck will think it wise to bring it to the publics attention.Not. ::)
 

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