Santa Ana Maria del Juncal

[comfortably numb]

Marx wrote in his book Shipwrecks in florida waters, "That on the 2nd of june 1611 the Santa Ana Maria del Juncal, Owned by Bernardo de Torres sank off Cabo de Apalachi. It was carrying several million pesos in silver bullion and specie. The ship was one in the convoy of the New Spain Flota commanded by Captian General The Marguis de Cadereyta. Some salvage was undertaken but very little was salvaged as the ship broke up quickly. AGI contratacion, 600."
I enjoy reading Marx's books but after reading alot of other threads on this forum it seems there may be some descrepancies. I have been trying to find more information to verify this ship but since I don't speak or read spanish it is very difficult. So before I go spending money on documents and a translater I was wondering if any one on here has come across this ship in thier research and would be willing to share? or atleast verify that I would not be chasing a ghost ship.
Thanks in advance.

 

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[Vox veritas]

Com,
well, walking 15 minutes from my house I get to the AGI. So, Contratación 600?

 

[comfortably numb]

Vox,
It would be a very long walk for me, and a swim. That is the source that Marx lists in the book, nothing else.

 

[FISHEYE]

[Footnote 129: The name of Apalache is now given to a large bay on the western coast of East Florida, and towards its northern extremity, the bottom or northern extremity of which is in lat. 30° N. and long. 67° 13' W. where a small river named St Marks enters the sea. The river Apalachicola, likewise named R. des Cahuilas, or Catahoche, runs into the western part of the same bay by two mouths, the easternmost of which is about fifteen miles S.W. of St. Marts River, and western mouth about twenty miles farther to the W.S.W. The same name is applied to the south western extremity of the great range of mountains in the middle states of North America; dividing the Atlantic country from the western waters which run into the Ohio, called Blue Mountains, Alleghany Mountains, and Apalachean Mountains. These last divide North Carolina from the sources of the Tenassee and Cumberland rivers. A part likewise of Georgia, east from the Apalachicola river, along the northern boundary of East Florida, is still named the Apalachi country.--E.]

 

[Mackaydon]

This may interest you and it may be referring to a totally different vessel: (I don't know the date of this article but believe it to be relatively recent.)
Mexico has denied a U.S. sea salvage company’s request to explore and recover artifacts from a sunken 17th-century Spanish galleon in the Gulf, the government said Monday.

The ship in question, the galleon Our Lady of Juncal, was part of a fleet hit by a powerful storm in 1631 in “one of the greatest tragedies that has ever occurred in Mexican waters,” according to Mexico’s National Institute of Anthropology and History.

The proposal by Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc. of Tampa, Florida, “is not intended to conduct research and does not have the approval of archaeologists or an academic institution of recognized prestige,” the Institute said. It added that “treasure hunters have always had their eyes on” the wreck site.

Odyssey Marine chairman Greg Stemm said in a statement that “the proposal presented to Mexico for archaeological services is in compliance with the UNESCO Convention and would keep all cultural artifacts together in a collection.”

The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization says on its Web site that the convention aims to “preserve in situ all remains of human existence submerged for at least one hundred years.”
The Our Lady of Juncal set sail from the Gulf coast port of Veracruz on Oct. 14, 1631, as part of a 19-ship fleet bearing what the Institute described only as “a valuable shipment of the goods obtained by the king’s ministers to feed the Spanish empire.” Most of the fleet never made it.
Don.........

 

[jeff k]

Com,
well, walking 15 minutes from my house I get to the AGI. So, Contratación 600?

It's curious that all of Odyssey's researchers in Spain are banned from the archives, but you claim to still have access. Have you been found innocent in the "Bay" trial?

 

[comfortably numb]

Fisheye, Yes this is the area I'm thinking about.

Don, I do not believe they are the same ships(or so I'm hoping). I have found reference to both of these ships. I also found that there was a ship of the same name Santa Ana Maria del Juncal of 20 guns was part of the 1588 spanish armada that was defeated in the english channel, But it is not listed as one of the ships lost. could this be the same ship?

Thanks for the input.
jeff

 

[Mackaydon]

Jeff;
You're probably right, but it did trigger my memory in the 'Juncal' supposedly lost in the Bay of Compeche, Mexico--and the Russian attempt to find her several years ago--only to be led by the MX authorities to sites NOT suggested by the Russians. The Russians spent a small fortune--and gained nothing except frustration.
Don.....

 

[Vox veritas]

Com,
well, walking 15 minutes from my house I get to the AGI. So, Contratación 600?

It's curious that all of Odyssey's researchers in Spain are banned from the archives, but you claim to still have access. Have you been found innocent in the "Bay" trial?

Jeff,
while the La Linea court decides on the charges of smuggling and looting of cultural heritage by a known company, my book was listed as part of the historical heritage by the Ministry of Culture of Spain:

http://www.mcu.es/centrosDocumentacion/docs/MC/num20.pdf # 93

Knowing the truth is a thin thread which can break at any time!
Cheers

 

[Chagy]

AGI 600 Expediente del abandono en la mar de la nao “Santa Maria del Juncal” de la flota del general Lope Diez de Armendáriz, en la mar navegando hacia la Havana 24/VI/1611

(It is not a ghost ship and is not the one posted by Don. The one posted by Don is “Nuestra Señora del Juncal” Captain Juan Nuñez 1631 that wrecked 8 leagues north of Cayo de Arcas)


Good luck!!!

Chagy.....

P.S. it says lost at sea while sailing to Havana...so there is a possibility it may be in the west coast of Fl

 

[comfortably numb]

Thank you Mr. Chagy Thats what I was looking for. I will continue my quest to see if there is more information. A ship carrying this much treasure and if some salvage was undertaken there should be alot more info on it somewhere I would think? What was the cause? A hurricane? It was part of a Flota, surley other ships in this fleet that survived would have accounts of this? This should be written somewhere I would think?. Excuse me for being stupid, but I do not have the experience that alot of members on this board have. But we all have to start somewhere. I know alot of members concentrate on the east coast where most wrecks have occured, but I'm stuck on the mud coast so I have to work with what I can find.
Thank You for the info.
Jeff

 

[Chagy]

Jeff,

No need to call me Mr. and no need to call your self stupid. Stupid would have been not asking. I am glad you asked and I am glad to help and I know that many others in this forum will be glad to answer all your questions.

Not sure how she sank or wrecked. What I posted says she was abandoned at sea on her trip to Havana since she was from the New Spain fleet she was coming from Veracruz, Mexico to Havana. I will see what else I can find. And yes the information is written some where and that would be in the Archivo General de Indias there is an specific file for the incident AGI 600 Expediente del abandono en la mar de la nao “Santa Maria del Juncal”

Chagy.....

 

[Vox veritas]

According to my information, this galleon sank before reaching Havana but the entire cargo was saved (AGI, Contratación, bundle # 4429, F. 2). In a report to Stenuit for RAMAL, says was lost west of Havana.
Cheers VV

 

[Chagy]

They key word here is “abandoned” That tells you clearly that she didn’t wreck.

 

[comfortably numb]

Yes, I tend to agree If it was abandoned most or all of the treasure would have been removed first. And if Vox is right that it sank west of havana what the hell does cabo de apalachi have to do with it I reckon the book writers were way off on this one. Oh well, off to the next one.

Thankyou everyone for your input and knowledge,
jeff

 

[sirwilliam]

Marx wrote in his book Shipwrecks in florida waters, "That on the 2nd of june 1611 the Santa Ana Maria del Juncal, Owned by Bernardo de Torres sank off Cabo de Apalachi. It was carrying several million pesos in silver bullion and specie. The ship was one in the convoy of the New Spain Flota commanded by Captian General The Marguis de Cadereyta. Some salvage was undertaken but very little was salvaged as the ship broke up quickly. AGI contratacion, 600."
I enjoy reading Marx's books but after reading alot of other threads on this forum it seems there may be some descrepancies. I have been trying to find more information to verify this ship but since I don't speak or read spanish it is very difficult. So before I go spending money on documents and a translater I was wondering if any one on here has come across this ship in thier research and would be willing to share? or atleast verify that I would not be chasing a ghost ship.
Thanks in advance.

Most people who research treasure shipwreck and who actually salvage them do not give away primary source documents which are documents found in the archives in Seville Spain and Barcelona Mexico City and even in the Philippines. I know some shipwreck historians in Paris who are about the world's best but they charge you for a file on each shipwreck and they also take 10% or more of the salvage if you are successful. I know someone who has copies of the original documents of this particular ship you are wondering about and I might be working in conjunction with him using our twin blower boat

 

[sirwilliam]

AGI 600 Expediente del abandono en la mar de la nao “Santa Maria del Juncal. Since you say you can walk to the archives how much would you charge us to go try to find this file if it hasn't already been taken by Robert marx?

 

[sirwilliam]

Thank you Mr. Chagy Thats what I was looking for. I will continue my quest to see if there is more information. A ship carrying this much treasure and if some salvage was undertaken there should be alot more info on it somewhere I would think? What was the cause? A hurricane? It was part of a Flota, surley other ships in this fleet that survived would have accounts of this? This should be written somewhere I would think?. Excuse me for being stupid, but I do not have the experience that alot of members on this board have. But we all have to start somewhere. I know alot of members concentrate on the east coast where most wrecks have occured, but I'm stuck on the mud coast so I have to work with what I can find.
Thank You for the info.
Jeff

Hi Jeff let's talk about the Spanish galleon on the west side of Florida in the panhandle area. Sank with some pretty great treasure

 

[sirwilliam]

Marx wrote in his book Shipwrecks in florida waters, "That on the 2nd of june 1611 the Santa Ana Maria del Juncal, Owned by Bernardo de Torres sank off Cabo de Apalachi. It was carrying several million pesos in silver bullion and specie. The ship was one in the convoy of the New Spain Flota commanded by Captian General The Marguis de Cadereyta. Some salvage was undertaken but very little was salvaged as the ship broke up quickly. AGI contratacion, 600."
I enjoy reading Marx's books but after reading alot of other threads on this forum it seems there may be some descrepancies. I have been trying to find more information to verify this ship but since I don't speak or read spanish it is very difficult. So before I go spending money on documents and a translater I was wondering if any one on here has come across this ship in thier research and would be willing to share? or atleast verify that I would not be chasing a ghost ship.
Thanks in advance.

 

[sirwilliam]

We have the information you seek concerning the Santa Ana Maria because it's been translated for us in the archives in Seville Spain from the original Spanish to English and we have a very good idea where it is and depth of water. We have just purchased a 54 ft beautiful yacht salvage boat and it's all the way up in Minnesota and we have to sell it all the way down the Mississippi River and once in the Gulf we have to head towards the east where that treasure ship sank. Maybe you wish to join us