Sam Houston at the Brazos

[bravowhiskey]

Hey folks,

Been doing a little reading, looking at some old maps and discovering things I never knew of.

For instance Gen. Sam Houston on the retreat from Santa Anna mid-March 1836 in an area just West of modern day Houston.

I read on and find Houston encamped and trained his troops for a period of 2-3 wks on the Brazos River in Southern Grimes County just South of modern day Hempstead. He is said to have been at the Groce Plantation (east side of Brazos) or across the river on the West side. I have read both locations. The Groce Plantation was the largest and I believe the first of any consequence to have existed in Texas at that time.

Well, the plantation is gone long ago and they say only a cistern remained recently. Nothing but pastures now. There had been a spate of investigation, by the state "archies" in 2009 I think with ground imaging devices, etc. (no mention of any metal detectors unless that is what they were referring to) I saw some pics of some unearthed brick work and mention of foundations, but not much else that I have read of. I only have info gleaned from a few books.

This all lies on private property now. I see from aerial photos what looks like a sod farm right next to the river, but just fields and pasture surrounding for the most part.

My question to any of you from the Houston area and elsewhere...have you heard of any MD'g efforts or if it is permitted by current landowners to do any MD'g for relics from the Sam Houston party camp? Or have there been any recent attempts publicly or privately to find any artifacts from that time?

There is a state historical sign posted over on the hwy. but the area is not a dedicated area like a nat'l or state site.

It would be one heck of an opportunity would it not? Even to detect anywhere around may be revealing.

Salivating like a Pavlov's dog,

Bravo Whiskey

 

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[bsloan]

Best of luck in your quest. Please keep us posted.

Bill

 

[Sallysue]

Sounds neat I am doing the Bird Creek battle account its close to me

 

[thrillathahunt]

Hey BW, long time no hear from...good to see you posting again. I don't know anything about that plantation, but if it is on private property it wouldn't hurt to just go there and ask to hunt it. PM me.

Rick

 

[garyo1954]

Cool story bro.

How long have you been detecting?

You've done a marvelous job of researching the area but a very poor job of researching the laws of detecting such areas.

METAL DETECTING IS NOT ALLOWED ON HISTORICALLY MARKED LANDS OR SITES. Those lands/site has already met the criteria of historically significant and are so marked to preserve that history.

If it is privately help land you MIGHT be able to acquire special permission, BUT TP&W rules and regulations govern all state parks, historical sites, forts, waterways and clearly state in paragraph (i) Metal Detector;

"It is an offense for any person to operate or use a metal detector, except as authorized by permit."
Additionally, paragraph (l.3) states "It is an offense for any person to take (or) remove...artifacts, except by written order of the director.
Further, "If you believe it is an artifact, which is anything that is more than 100 years old, don't touch it."

But no doesn't always mean no, so you might get special permission from the owner if the land is privately held.
He still can't legally give you permission to break the law. So taking any item and keeping quiet destroys the pedigree of it.
It would become another piece of junk somebody is trying to pass off as historically significant, the 1 millionth bullet that killed Jesse James.

For the sake of discussion, let's say everything goes according to plan.
You get permission.
You hit the jackpot!
You find say, a sword, carried by Sam Houston directly tied to this training field!
WOOT! WOOT! Fantastic find!
This is a once in a lifetime find worth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars!
You're going to marvelously rich beyond your wildest imagination!
Yes!

The real question is, How successful would you be convincing a judge that 1) you wanted to hunt because Sam Houston trained troops on that historic site in 1836, 2) there was a historic marker denoting the site as a historical landmark, and 3) you had no idea that the items you found were over 100 years old?

GL & HH

 

[bravowhiskey]

Cool story bro.

How long have you been detecting?

You've done a marvelous job of researching the area but a very poor job of researching the laws of detecting such areas.

METAL DETECTING IS NOT ALLOWED ON HISTORICALLY MARKED LANDS OR SITES. Those lands/site has already met the criteria of historically significant and are so marked to preserve that history.

If it is privately help land you MIGHT be able to acquire special permission, BUT TP&W rules and regulations govern all state parks, historical sites, forts, waterways and clearly state in paragraph (i) Metal Detector;

"It is an offense for any person to operate or use a metal detector, except as authorized by permit."
Additionally, paragraph (l.3) states "It is an offense for any person to take (or) remove...artifacts, except by written order of the director.
Further, "If you believe it is an artifact, which is anything that is more than 100 years old, don't touch it."

But no doesn't always mean no, so you might get special permission from the owner if the land is privately held.
He still can't legally give you permission to break the law. So taking any item and keeping quiet destroys the pedigree of it.
It would become another piece of junk somebody is trying to pass off as historically significant, the 1 millionth bullet that killed Jesse James.

For the sake of discussion, let's say everything goes according to plan.
You get permission.
You hit the jackpot!
You find say, a sword, carried by Sam Houston directly tied to this training field!
WOOT! WOOT! Fantastic find!
This is a once in a lifetime find worth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars!
You're going to marvelously rich beyond your wildest imagination!
Yes!

The real question is, How successful would you be convincing a judge that 1) you wanted to hunt because Sam Houston trained troops on that historic site in 1836, 2) there was a historic marker denoting the site as a historical landmark, and 3) you had no idea that the items you found were over 100 years old?

GL & HH

Gimme' a break. You, Sir don't know me

I have sent a message to the state archie over this district (dist #2) to inquire as to the status of this area. I would never run rampant like some clown on TV, and would certainly cover all legal bases before anything other than research occurred.

But thanks for your confidence.

 

[garyo1954]

Gimme' a break. You, Sir don't know me

I have sent a message to the state archie over this district (dist #2) to inquire as to the status of this area. I would never run rampant like some clown on TV, and would certainly cover all legal bases before anything other than research occurred.

But thanks for your confidence.

Guess you can tell me the name of the archaeologist over district 2 so I don't have to contact TP&W to inquire?

Oh wait! You sir, don't know me.

But I'm not stupid enough to think there is an archaeologist in charge of district 2, (or any other district).
I'm not stupid enough to believe a person capable of doing such fine research on an area is not smart to research the law.
And I'm not stupid enough to believe that you would come here looking for the answers to your questions had you talked to anyone at TP&W.
You wouldn't need to post your question since you would already know the law about metal detecting historical sites.

Want to try telling me you didn't know a 1909 - SVDB was 100 years old now?

 

[Tnmountains]

Guess you can tell me the name of the archaeologist over district 2 so I don't have to contact TP&W to inquire?

Oh wait! You sir, don't know me.

But I'm not stupid enough to think there is an archaeologist in charge of district 2, (or any other district).
I'm not stupid enough to believe a person capable of doing such fine research on an area is not smart to research the law.
And I'm not stupid enough to believe that you would come here looking for the answers to your questions had you talked to anyone at TP&W.
You wouldn't need to post your question since you would already know the law about metal detecting historical sites.

Want to try telling me you didn't know a 1909 - SVDB was 100 years old now?

Obviously you do not know Bravo. He said State Archeologist and as you know every state has a State Archeologist which would be over district 2 and any other district in the state of Texas.. He also stated that is was private land but as he said has "a state historical sign posted over on the hwy. but the area is not a dedicated area like a nat'l or state site." Please read the post before you jump conclusions. We have many historical markers here and many refer to actions on private land. I have hunted many with permission by the landowner. Even those where cannons are placed in the yards with markers but are outside of the National park on private lands.
.
Bravo good seeing you. I miss that old Brazos River. Wish I had of spent more time on it. Sounds like you might want to contact the owners. As it is a sod farm now you might be able to come behind them after they cut out sod and detect. We do that on a sod farm here for ancient artifacts

 

[garyo1954]

Obviously you do not know Bravo. He said State Archeologist and as you know every state has a State Archeologist which would be over district 2 and any other district in the state of Texas.. He also stated that is was private land but as he said has "a state historical sign posted over on the hwy. but the area is not a dedicated area like a nat'l or state site." Please read the post before you jump conclusions. We have many historical markers here and many refer to actions on private land. I have hunted many with permission by the landowner. Even those where cannons are placed in the yards with markers but are outside of the National park on private lands.
.
Bravo good seeing you. I miss that old Brazos River. Wish I had of spent more time on it. Sounds like you might want to contact the owners. As it is a sod farm now you might be able to come behind them after they cut out sod and detect. We do that on a sod farm here for ancient artifacts

Obviously I don't know either of you. But knowing you or not knowing you doesn't change what the laws says.

The law clearly states you must obtain permission from the Director. As I stated, in Texas, if it is privately owned land, you may get permission from the owner, but if you find something believed to be over 100 years old, you have to stop digging.

Please check the American Antiquities Act of 1906, the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, the Archaeological Resources Protection act of 1979, and the Texas (not Tennessee) Parks and Wildlife Rules and Regulations.

Not to further rain on your parade but there is also the Antiquities Code of Texas (note it is TEXAS not Tennessee) that was put in effect as a result of an incident in the late 1960s wherein a sunken 16th century Spanish treasure ship was plundered without regard for proper archeological controls, and significant historical information was lost. Most Texans with metal detectors are plenty aware of that case.

The Antiquities Code of Texas primarily deals with public land and requires state agencies and political subdivisions of the state — including cities, counties, river authorities, municipal utility districts, and school districts — to notify the Texas Historical Commission (THC) of ground-disturbing activity. The law also established the designation of State Archeological Landmark, which may be applied to historic buildings as well as archeological sites. The Antiquities Code is in the state laws of your local law library in Texas Natural Resource Code, Title 9, Chapter 191, and accompanying Rules of Practice and Procedure is in Texas Administrative Code, Title 13, Chapter 26.

Feel free to search the Texas Historical Commission website for more National and State laws, rules, regulations and standards here: Statutes, Regulations, & Rules | Texas Historical Commission

 

[thrillathahunt]

Hey garyo, you arrogant and condescending replies to my friends post seems to indicate that you are an archaeologist.

 

[truckinbutch]

Obviously I don't know either of you. But knowing you or not knowing you doesn't change what the laws says.

The law clearly states you must obtain permission from the Director. As I stated, in Texas, if it is privately owned land, you may get permission from the owner, but if you find something believed to be over 100 years old, you have to stop digging.

Please check the American Antiquities Act of 1906, the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, the Archaeological Resources Protection act of 1979, and the Texas (not Tennessee) Parks and Wildlife Rules and Regulations.

Not to further rain on your parade but there is also the Antiquities Code of Texas (note it is TEXAS not Tennessee) that was put in effect as a result of an incident in the late 1960s wherein a sunken 16th century Spanish treasure ship was plundered without regard for proper archeological controls, and significant historical information was lost. Most Texans with metal detectors are plenty aware of that case.

The Antiquities Code of Texas primarily deals with public land and requires state agencies and political subdivisions of the state — including cities, counties, river authorities, municipal utility districts, and school districts — to notify the Texas Historical Commission (THC) of ground-disturbing activity. The law also established the designation of State Archeological Landmark, which may be applied to historic buildings as well as archeological sites. The Antiquities Code is in the state laws of your local law library in Texas Natural Resource Code, Title 9, Chapter 191, and accompanying Rules of Practice and Procedure is in Texas Administrative Code, Title 13, Chapter 26.

Feel free to search the Texas Historical Commission website for more National and State laws, rules, regulations and standards here: Statutes, Regulations, & Rules | Texas Historical Commission

With your attitude and failed reading skills I think you could get 'excused' from here real quick .