Rules governing STATE PARKS...

[LadyDigger]

I'm running into some issues here in Virginia regarding State Parks and know what we were told by several Park Rangers on what we can and can not do....thought I would pass this on for reading and to some, it might be of interest.

We are working on our PERMITS now...

http://www.fmdac.org/parks/parks.htm

Happy Reading and Happy Hunting,
Annmarie

 

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[borninok]

Annmarie,

Pls do me a big favor...let us know your success or failure on your permit requests. Or, could you pls PM me? Up here nearer the DC area, I have been told by park officials that yes, I can submit a permit request but 100% of the time the answer is a big "NO"...in a political tactful way, of course. :P

Appreciate any assist you can give. Thanks.
--Mel

borninok

 

[Illinois Jeff]

It makes me wonder why a permit process is even in place if its "no" all the time. If you can prove no permits were ever issued I wonder if its grounds for a lawsuit especially if you pay for this, get denied and get no refund. They could use this to get free money and it wouldnt surprise me. Try fighting the Gov't.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey, regarding that FMDAC link, in general: You know how the FMDAC got their info right? The same way that the book "Treasure Laws of the United States" (by an author named Grim or Grimm) got it: They sent out letters to all 50 states and ask "what are your rules pertaining to metal detecting at state parks/land?"

Here's where it gets sticky: Assume you are the one opening that inquiry at your desk in the bureaucratic maze. Now obviously, a few parks in your state might be historic monuments, but the rest are not necessarily protected historical monuments. What's the easy answer? "Inquire at each kiosk as you enter" or a "no", etc... Because they can't go into details like this: "Yes at these 3 dozen, but no at these 4 other there" or "Yes at the beach, but not in the lawns, and stay off the indian site and such and such, but anywhere else in that park we don't care, etc...." So instead, park's dept's usually just say "no" or whatever.

As an example, in Grimm's book (which is similar to the FMDAC site, ... in fact, maybe FMDAC just copied his material?) the portion on state of CA beaches was humorous: "Inquire of the rangers upon coming and leaving" "turn in all jewelry to lost and found." "If you find an old coin, mark it with a little flag and alert the state archaeologist" etc.. etc... When I first read that stuff, I was humored, because we've detected beaches here, in full view of rangers, since the 1970s, and no one's ever said a thing to us! Now I suppose if I were to walk up and ask a ranger at the beach, he might say "hmm, I've never thought of this before, let me look it up" And he'd search his rule books, find something he thinks applies (like the previous quoted verbage, or "don't disturb the vegetation" or whatever) and might tell me "no". So why would I ask if we've never been bothered? And if someone else comes along and takes it upon himself to ask, and he gets a "no", guess what's going to happen the next time that ranger sees another md'r, whom he previously never paid any mind to? He'll remember the earlier inquiry and start booting people! Doh!

I can't help but wonder if this CA example isn't replicated in a lot of those states whose wording seems dire. Ie.: no one really cares. To the FMDAC's credit, they did the best they could. I mean, what better source to ask, but the state's headquarters themselves, right? But as you know, when you sit behind a desk somewhere, the easy answer is always "no" or "ask each ranger", which you'll notice is the predominant answers of each of those states.

 

[Mark S.]

To set the record straight.

I am the one who put together the state park info on the FMDAC site.

There was no copying of anyones book

It was not just a simple "send out letters" action. It was many hours spent researching the laws on the net. Tracking down the info and asking questions. Sending numerous emails to parks departments and following up when the info sent was not clear or no response was received. There still are a couple that never replied. One of them was mentioned here. West Virginia. If the person who posted it can send me a copy of what they received I would appreciated it as they never responded to many emails.

The info on the site is what the laws and regulations read. Do not knock the FMDAC for posting it. Or because the agencies do not follow it, or twist it around. Or just refuse to issue permits. The intent was to make people aware of what the regulations read.

As to stupid regulations I agree completely. One state office was contacted numerous times to get a clarification of their replies because they didn't make sense. For a real treat take a look at South Carolina. Read thru it carefully and you will see where several pages could have been condensed to two maybe two lines.

Mark Schuessler
FMDAC Alliance Liaison

 

[Mark S.]

I just realized that the West Virginia reference was not in this thread. It was in a different thread in the "legal" forum.

Mark S.

 

[Jeffro]

Just a heads up Mark, I hear the State of Oregon is coming out with new rules. They aren't posted yet, but they're coming.

http://www.travelingdetector.com/cdclc/pdf/Oregon State Parks New Policy Info.pdf


Thought you might like to know-

 

[LadyDigger]

First, let me say, I think the FMDAC site is a great site...it's a great reference site....you still need to check with each individual park

Nothing is ever written in stone and as we all know...rules can change to fit the individuals at the time running the show!!!

I had totally forgotton I posted this topic and when I recently saw activity on it...I realized, I have YET to receive any blank permit forms What's up with that? Don't promise to do something and not follow through.

I guess I have to make some calls again....hmmm?

I have since, however, check with some local "state" parks here in Virginia Beach (i.e., Seashore State Park, now called First Landing State Park). Several of the rangers that work there come into my store and we talk about detecting and all at the state park.

From what I am told, no permit is needed, however, you can ONLY DETECT during the OFF SEASON months on the beach. Even though some have detected the campsites during the OFF SEASON time, it still is not permitted. There is NO DETECTING during the ON SEASON months.

I also told them when I went there personnally, I was FLAT OUT told NO!!! I was never explained that I could during OFF SEASON months. So, sometimes, you may have to ask several times, or several individuals and even get them off their turf LOL

Either way, we are going to try some detecting at the state parks beach this year and see...don't know how much the bay will stir up during a nor'easterner, but hopefully even to bring some goodies in!!! So, looking forward to a good storm! (Hmmm, you never heard me say that before LOL)

Last contact I had with the state park up in Surry (Chippoke? think I spelled it correctly)...they WILL (rather, the head ranger) WILL NOT BUDGE!!! Permit or not...NO DETECTING!!! That would be some really nice area to detect. Even another ranger we spoke with when we visited the park was pretty excited about our group coming in to detect certain areas (not even used by the public mind you!!!...we are talking...IN THE WOODS!!)...but even with her help....we can't seem to budge the NO part. Even though we said EVERYTHING FOUND (Trash and relics and historical items, coins, etc) will be turned in to the park...Oh well...I will keep them on the back burner and try again at a later date! I even tried to explain that we love finding history and seeing it perserved for future generations and with our hunt at Pipsico...maybe we can find connections and maybe find that one piece of history that will explain everything or solve a mystery...so much history we walk on daily and we can't retrieve it for the future generations to enjoy and learn about history as it was actually written...by the people who walked and lived in that area....

Anyways...we were hoping to make it to the Holiday State Park again this year, but never had a chance. I do know you can metal detect there. You can get a permit, BUT...it takes approx 10 days for approval. We were not told that when we went the first time...so we did not get to detect. Anything of historical finds are to be turned in, however, you can keep whatever you find on the beach! Historical finds is 50 or more years old. Esp any Civil War artifacts...you must turn those in!

Did you know also, you can metal detect Army Corps of Engineers State Parks? Yeppers, when we went to Arkansas, to the Crator of Diamonds, we stayed at Lake Greeson...you still need a permit, either from the Rangers Office or from one of the Rangers roaming the park...it is FREE too! At Lake Greeson, for instance, you can keep ALL YOUR FINDS...except for Native American items...which we were told to LEAVE THEM RIGHT WHERE WE FOUND THEM, don't even turn them in! Never found anything Native American though .

I asked the Ranger there, if this applied to ALL Army Corps of Engineer land and he told me yes!!!! Not just in Arkansas...so I'm going to check here locally and see if that holds true! I have a spot I would love to detect and it's Army Corps of Engineer land ...lots of history on this piece of land!

Also, for those in the Virginia Beach, Chesapeake area...I was given permission to detect the parks, such as RED WING, DEEP CREEK, etc....you DO NOT NEED A PERMIT. I only called to verify if I could or not. The man I spoke with who heads the City of Chesapeake parks (I have his name and number written down on some paper here on my desk...gotta' find it)...he said you can detect ANY CITY PARK in the City of Chesapeake and if anyone gives you a problem ... they could contact him. He appreciated me calling to check first and asked that I let him know if I find any thing exciting. I told him I would turn in anything of historical items and he said we could keep everything we find.

When I spoke to the person in charge of the City of Va Beach Parks, she told me the same thing and she also appreciated the call.

I have detected various parks in these two cities, nothing of great value (as per historical, but I'm not done yet!!!). I know Red Wing park was a Poor Farm at one time...infact, there is still a road (the original or part of the original road still in use today!). I am in search of old maps now that would show me where to locate the farm in relation to the current layout of the park.

So, yes, you can detect CERTAIN state parks in Virginia with permits..but it is up to the HEAD RANGER to say 'yea or nay'....

Now, I need to call these places back to find out what ever happened to my permit app!!!

HH everyone,
Annmarie

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mark S., thanx for chiming in. You say: "asking questions. Sending numerous emails to parks departments" So basically, in addition to researching what you could find already in print, you did inquire of states (the larger percentage of states?) that you didn't find clear wording on. So in that regard, it's like Grimm's book, where, in his preface, he explains that he sent out letters to each of the 50 states asking "what are your rules?".

I can't see any other way around the way you and Grimm did it. As I said, who better to ask, than the state's themselves, right? But I also see, as my earlier post stated, that perhaps in a lot of the state's responses that seem down-right dire (or ask at each kiosk, etc...) that maybe very few individual park's ever cared previously, barring obvious historical monuments.

Here's an example, true story: There is a state park near Santa Cruz, CA. A buddy of mine and his friends used to detect the campsites at-will. They pulled a lot of silver out of there over the years. One day though, they got booted, by a ranger they'd seen previously, where nothing but a friendly wave had ever occured. When they asked the ranger "why?" he'd only say "it's not allowed". A week later, my friend found out that a newbie to detecting, had taken it upon himself to go ask at the kiosk "is metal detecting allowed here?" They must've looked it up in their books, found something they thought applied, and told him "no". Then, with that fresh in their minds, booted my friend when they saw him later. Do you see the psychology at work? My friend couldn't help but be a bit ticked at the newbie for making waves and getting a park put off-limits.

On a larger scale, attempts like the FMDAC may actually work in the same way. I know there's no other way around it, but it just seems that more we go asking, it only casts aspursions on ourselves, as if .... something is inherently wrong or evil with the hobby, that we had to ask to begin with. And then the person looking to reply, must address "this pressing issue." So for this reason, I take the stance to just steer clear of obvious historic monuments. And for all else, I will consider myself no different than the guy using the basket ball hoops, jogging the track, skipping stones, etc....

Another true example: There was a state in the midwest (I forget which one), where a fellow got booted from a particular state park by a ranger. The md'r started researching, and found nothing that could prohibit metal detecting, so he set about to challenge his being booted. He wrote letters to the highest in the state park's bureaucracy he could contact. He cited several neighboring states who's wording actually allowed detecting (rather than being silent on the issue), albeit at swim beaches only, or whatever. Months went by, and he never got a reply to his letters. One day, he was at a different state park, one at which he'd never been bothered. But he got booted from this one too! When he asked the ranger "why? I've never had a problem here before?" The ranger pulls out a department memo and shows it to the guy. It was a memo to all the state's park's rangers to be on the lookout for md'rs, as this was no longer allowed. Guess who it was signed by? The very head park's dept. guy whom the md'r had been petitioning! See the psychology? His sincere efforts had met with someone who addressed his issue. Something innocuous and ignored before, was now prohibited. The md'r said he wished he'd left good enough alone, and merely treated his first incident as an isolated matter, and just stayed clear of that one ranger, or one park.

 

[Mark S.]

Jeffro
Thanks for the heads up on Oregon. If I remember right I think Oregon may have been one that I could find no info and did not respond. A park employee who is also a detectorists sent me the info.

Mark S.