I was just reading some old post and I know this has been brought up before, but here we go again (incase there are any new ideas). What would you do if scuba diving around an old wreck site( with no claim or salvage permits), and you found a couple of pounds of gold or silver coins? Maybe not a fortune but lets say 5 lbs of gold coins. Now you're in a state that says no items can be taken off old wrecks. Most would keep them but then what would you do? You can't get a permit from the state, and anyway the state will keep it all if they knew you recovered it. So now what? Hide it away for a few years and sell it in another state? Keep making "stealth" missions and try to get more? Risk getting caught? Don't everyone jump on me at once, I wish I had this problem, and NO i didn't find anything. I just live in Maine and they say anything in the water over 50 years old is state property. I can honestly say that I wouldn't leave it on the bottom but I don't know what I would do at that point. Bell47
revisiting old subject
- Thread starter bell47
- Start date
scubatreasure
Sr. Member
I would bag up all potential findings to be brought back to the lab for future verification that they are in fact gold coins...and...i...would...KEEP SWINGING!
Once back at the lab, and after doing the proper clean up, and in fact verifying the authenticity of said coin's, I would go back to this site to see if there were any other artifacts or coins to date this site. after finding nothing else I would have come to the conclusion that they were dropped by a treasure hunter from the recent past, oh maybe from the 1960's or 70's or 80's.....and that being the case i would have to say that the coins themselves maybe over fifty years old but the means by which they came to be at this location were not 50 years or older so i would keep them safe in my possession just in case someone was to try and find there long lost coin's, of coarse i would read the lost and found section of the news paper every day...
Once back at the lab, and after doing the proper clean up, and in fact verifying the authenticity of said coin's, I would go back to this site to see if there were any other artifacts or coins to date this site. after finding nothing else I would have come to the conclusion that they were dropped by a treasure hunter from the recent past, oh maybe from the 1960's or 70's or 80's.....and that being the case i would have to say that the coins themselves maybe over fifty years old but the means by which they came to be at this location were not 50 years or older so i would keep them safe in my possession just in case someone was to try and find there long lost coin's, of coarse i would read the lost and found section of the news paper every day...
aquanut
Bronze Member
Everything discovered in Florida from 2006 on was probably found on the beach...
deepsix47
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So what you're doing in your post here is asking for a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question. The way I understand the law in your state, the fact that you removed the "treasure" in the first place is a felony. That means that if caught in your boat you can count that and all of your equipment gone on conviction. If they let you get to your vehicle, that's gone too. Now if they are really serious about you, they let you get your finds home, you guessed it, that's now history too.
Now that is all just for starters, Your lawyer fees, fines, court costs, etc. heaps on top of everything else. Now lets go a step further in your particular case. You have made numerous posts here on TNet asking for "hypothetical" ways of skirting the laws (they know this because they have confiscated every computer in your home), including asking about things that one might say to a law enforcement officer to explain why you have these items and equipment in your boat (a whole new bunch of charges about giving false information). That opens up a big legal issue concerning Conspiracy (a whole other bunch of charges that can involve almost anyone connected to you).
Continuing (according to your hypothetical question), you are taliking about 5lbs of gold at best. At today's prices, that comes to about $77/$78,000. Lets say, for arguments sake, that you end up doing 3 years in prison. That works out to about $25/26k per year (if you were able to keep your find. Not very good wages considering and none at all after the fines, etc.. Is it worth it??
Now lets say that you were not caught and decided to sell your finds on the underground market. You could of course move a few without drawing much attention to yourself legally but then you are depending solely on the numismatic value of the coin as you can't let it's true origin be known. If your greed was enough to pirate it in the first place you're probably going to start looking to other alternatives. The underground artifact market is a pretty sleazy place actually and the sharks that inhabit it on the ground level are going to eat you alive if you don't know your way around. Some experts say that it can be and often is, as dangerous as the illegal drug world.
Now, the facts of life are simple. It really doesn't matter if a particular law (and there are many of them I agree) is bulls**t or not. It is still the law. If you want a law changed, work legally to get it changed. Should you decide to go pirate, no problem, but be willing to accept the consequences of your actions also. There are many examples out there of "pirates" that got caught. One that comes to mind was an idiot that was digging up Indian Mounds with a Bobcat front end loader. He got convicted, lost everything including his family and showed up at his senticing hearing with a priest (he had found god), carrying a bible, tears in his eyes and a handful of letters attesting to what a great guy he was. The judge threw the book at him. This same guy served his time and is now living out West still digging. The States as well as the Feds are getting very serious about all of this and have formed special taskforces to come after all of us. So again I ask. Is it worth it??
I could go on with this but rather then that, let me ask you a couple of questions. After reading all of your past posts I was just wondering. Why do you always seem to come back to this particular subject?? Also, as a relative newbie you seem to have been involved with an inordinate number of virgin wrecks from 1715 to the early 1800's. That's very cool but, why would you want to draw so much attention to yourself and the wrecks by breaching this subject at all, much less so often, on an open forum??
I mean no disrespest, just wondering.
Deepsix
Now that is all just for starters, Your lawyer fees, fines, court costs, etc. heaps on top of everything else. Now lets go a step further in your particular case. You have made numerous posts here on TNet asking for "hypothetical" ways of skirting the laws (they know this because they have confiscated every computer in your home), including asking about things that one might say to a law enforcement officer to explain why you have these items and equipment in your boat (a whole new bunch of charges about giving false information). That opens up a big legal issue concerning Conspiracy (a whole other bunch of charges that can involve almost anyone connected to you).
Continuing (according to your hypothetical question), you are taliking about 5lbs of gold at best. At today's prices, that comes to about $77/$78,000. Lets say, for arguments sake, that you end up doing 3 years in prison. That works out to about $25/26k per year (if you were able to keep your find. Not very good wages considering and none at all after the fines, etc.. Is it worth it??
Now lets say that you were not caught and decided to sell your finds on the underground market. You could of course move a few without drawing much attention to yourself legally but then you are depending solely on the numismatic value of the coin as you can't let it's true origin be known. If your greed was enough to pirate it in the first place you're probably going to start looking to other alternatives. The underground artifact market is a pretty sleazy place actually and the sharks that inhabit it on the ground level are going to eat you alive if you don't know your way around. Some experts say that it can be and often is, as dangerous as the illegal drug world.
Now, the facts of life are simple. It really doesn't matter if a particular law (and there are many of them I agree) is bulls**t or not. It is still the law. If you want a law changed, work legally to get it changed. Should you decide to go pirate, no problem, but be willing to accept the consequences of your actions also. There are many examples out there of "pirates" that got caught. One that comes to mind was an idiot that was digging up Indian Mounds with a Bobcat front end loader. He got convicted, lost everything including his family and showed up at his senticing hearing with a priest (he had found god), carrying a bible, tears in his eyes and a handful of letters attesting to what a great guy he was. The judge threw the book at him. This same guy served his time and is now living out West still digging. The States as well as the Feds are getting very serious about all of this and have formed special taskforces to come after all of us. So again I ask. Is it worth it??
I could go on with this but rather then that, let me ask you a couple of questions. After reading all of your past posts I was just wondering. Why do you always seem to come back to this particular subject?? Also, as a relative newbie you seem to have been involved with an inordinate number of virgin wrecks from 1715 to the early 1800's. That's very cool but, why would you want to draw so much attention to yourself and the wrecks by breaching this subject at all, much less so often, on an open forum??
I mean no disrespest, just wondering.
Deepsix
deepsix,
Well said, and thanks for that. And referring the other thread that is running here at the moment, if anybody wonders why archaeologists (and the general public) have such a bad opinion of treasure hunters, just read Limo Bob's post again.
Mariner
Well said, and thanks for that. And referring the other thread that is running here at the moment, if anybody wonders why archaeologists (and the general public) have such a bad opinion of treasure hunters, just read Limo Bob's post again.
Mariner
deepsix47
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scubatreasure said:I don't see anything that remotely resembles me breaking any laws, i mentioned no boat cause i sold mine, keep swinging is a good indicator that I'm on the beach and last i heard anything i find between the low tide and dune is fair game.
I don't live my life in fear ...I say whats on my mind...I have been investigated to some of the highest levels possible in this country, not for what I've said or done, but for who I was associated with. That being said, anyone who knows me also knows i have a deep respect for the law.
Oh yes and in reference to the other thread that is running in here, read it, read it many times, get a sense of humor or grow a set of ball's and meet me at the BBQ.
Limo Bob
and to make sure its clear...
Google this name: Enrique Piana, my Dear friend from Argentina.
Who was in my opinion illegally imprisoned in this country, but is now a free man in his country.......Lived with me when he was the longest standing member of the federal witness protection program, who never tried to escape and served his time. He has written a book called ...Gold Confessions...and i'm in it....most copy's are in Spanish...you people don't know what being under the microscope even means.
LMAO!!!! If any of this was directed at me, my only reference was to bell47s original post on this thread and others he has made here on TNet. However, if it is, I will be at the BBQ so feel free to step up and we can discuss any issue you might have. Last time I checked though, the BBQ is for fun, good eats and treasure hunting talk (no balls were required....lol!!!!). I would also like to extend a warm invitation to Mariner and assure him that attitudes and personal issues will not be tolerated at said party. Aquanut has made that abundantly clear.
No problem ID'ing me by the way. Aquanut and a number of others will be glad to introduce you. Oh yea, my Avatar kinda gives me away too and I'll be doing most of the cooking. You have a super day
Deepsix
PS: I have to ask. What does Enrique Piana have to do with anything we're discussing here?? I don't have to look him up. He was the Argentinian that was involved in a Bank Fraud scandal back in the 90's I think. Glad to hear he wrote a book (honest work) and you got your name in print
My question remains however. How is it relevant here??- Thread starter
- #8
so, deepsix47 yes this is all hypothetical. But back to the question, what would YOU do if swimming along and came upon the 5lbs of gold coins that we all would like to find? Are you gonna leave it or be a pirate 
deepsix47
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bell47 said:so, deepsix47 yes this is all hypothetical. But back to the question, what would YOU do if swimming along and came upon the 5lbs of gold coins that we all would like to find? Are you gonna leave it or be a pirate
Well, I guess that's one way to dodge the questions I asked you. Kinda old and feeble like the good cop bad cop routine but.... As far as my answer goes, it really doesn't matter because I'm not in that position. Everyone will have to make a decision like that when they are in that position. I've pretty much found out what I wanted to know so I'm outta here. A great day to all!!!!
Deepsix
scubatreasure
Sr. Member
My apologies deepsix, some times i get frustrated with the way people point the finger of blame, like read limo bobs post if you want to know why the general public and archeologist hate us , my post was meant to shed light on the fact that if this is the case it is a false sense of what is going on out in the field, there are no treasure hunters blowing stuff up there is no great destruction of provenance, and any one spreading that type of propaganda has an agenda that serves a different cause and not the treasure hunters.
Sure there have been cases of this happening in the past , but this is not an ongoing threat to our coral reefs or any shipwrecks that are unexplored at this time.Again anyone spreading this form of propaganda has a different agenda then the treasure hunters and there community. At least all the guy's that I know that ever found anything were proficient in their exploration and salvage of the site, and held a great respect for the historical significance of their findings. Now I no there are some exceptions to the rule, but they are the exceptions and not the rule. And people who constantly propagate that these exceptions are the rule...I question their agenda...
OH, and the point to mentioning my friend Enrique Piana, besides the fact that i like to help him sell some books, you mentioned that the States as well as the Feds had put together task forces to come after us all, well, if we are not breaking the law what do we have to fear, you can not be found guilty by association until you decide to cross that line, oh and I'm with you on the point you made on another thread that we should change the law from within if we are not happy with the way things are layed out for us to follow.
And to be honest with you what set me off was Mariner's comment, and had nothing to do with you....and Mr. Mariner is entitled to his opinion but again, I question some ones agenda that keeps sending out this false sense of what the general public thinks about us verses what the Archie community thinks about us. and oh boy wouldn't they want everyone to think like they do.
Sure there have been cases of this happening in the past , but this is not an ongoing threat to our coral reefs or any shipwrecks that are unexplored at this time.Again anyone spreading this form of propaganda has a different agenda then the treasure hunters and there community. At least all the guy's that I know that ever found anything were proficient in their exploration and salvage of the site, and held a great respect for the historical significance of their findings. Now I no there are some exceptions to the rule, but they are the exceptions and not the rule. And people who constantly propagate that these exceptions are the rule...I question their agenda...
OH, and the point to mentioning my friend Enrique Piana, besides the fact that i like to help him sell some books, you mentioned that the States as well as the Feds had put together task forces to come after us all, well, if we are not breaking the law what do we have to fear, you can not be found guilty by association until you decide to cross that line, oh and I'm with you on the point you made on another thread that we should change the law from within if we are not happy with the way things are layed out for us to follow.
And to be honest with you what set me off was Mariner's comment, and had nothing to do with you....and Mr. Mariner is entitled to his opinion but again, I question some ones agenda that keeps sending out this false sense of what the general public thinks about us verses what the Archie community thinks about us. and oh boy wouldn't they want everyone to think like they do.
aquanut
Bronze Member
Scubatreasure,
On one level, I agree with you. Treasure Hunters are getting a bad rap and the state is doing their utmost to eliminate us!
Believe me, I personally have been treasure hunting since 1994 with Deepsix47 and the man is intense when it comes to what we do. He says exactly what he thinks and if he feels like he's being crossed, well... he's going to tell you in no uncertain terms. I'm sorry you two have come to some kind of disagreement because I think the both of you are not too far off in your way of thinking. Deepsix understands the law and tries his best to abide by it, even though he may disagree with some of the restrictions it puts on us as plain old citizens that don't holda degree in Anthropology/Marine Archeology. I think when you two meet face to face you'll get along like old brothers.
I am curious also, what was it Mariner said that upset you so... I've had nothing but informative, respectful and insightful conversations with him in the past.
I am with you on your opinion that us Thunter's are getting bashed. The fact that we might take the money and run is up to each and every
individual. Myself, I'm not above "Taking the Money and and Running! But I also May Not! That question leaves a lot of ifs.
By the way, Scubatreasure, I expect to see you at the cookout. I just got back from COSCO about 2 hours ago and left them with the balance of my checking account!
Aquanut
On one level, I agree with you. Treasure Hunters are getting a bad rap and the state is doing their utmost to eliminate us!
Believe me, I personally have been treasure hunting since 1994 with Deepsix47 and the man is intense when it comes to what we do. He says exactly what he thinks and if he feels like he's being crossed, well... he's going to tell you in no uncertain terms. I'm sorry you two have come to some kind of disagreement because I think the both of you are not too far off in your way of thinking. Deepsix understands the law and tries his best to abide by it, even though he may disagree with some of the restrictions it puts on us as plain old citizens that don't holda degree in Anthropology/Marine Archeology. I think when you two meet face to face you'll get along like old brothers.
I am curious also, what was it Mariner said that upset you so... I've had nothing but informative, respectful and insightful conversations with him in the past.
I am with you on your opinion that us Thunter's are getting bashed. The fact that we might take the money and run is up to each and every
individual. Myself, I'm not above "Taking the Money and and Running! But I also May Not! That question leaves a lot of ifs.
By the way, Scubatreasure, I expect to see you at the cookout. I just got back from COSCO about 2 hours ago and left them with the balance of my checking account!
Aquanut
scubatreasure
Sr. Member
As much as I don't want to I must say that I agree with you Dell, if they want ya their going to get ya even if they have to trump up the charges, I would like to think that we are beyond this type of activity but we are not, and it does happen .Dell Winders said:
Aquanut, I have no beef with Deepsix...he is like the big brother I always wanted, someone with the real life experience and worldly knowledge that is priceless to me and I have come to have a great respect for him , and I think that with this in person meeting a lot of people will come that much closer together, see I don't have any real life treasure hunting experience, I have a lot of diving and finding experience but now for the first time i'am focusing on treasure hunting and it has been a learning experience being on here with you all , some really great and talented people on here, and I know I have a lot to learn, but I also feel I have a lot to offer. I feel kinda like a student and I just want to make sure I got the right teachers...
deepsix47
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scubatreasure said:
No apologies needed my friend. I tend to get along with people that are up front and will let you know where they stand. I have a lot of respect also for those that will come back and explain their statements if there is a misunderstanding. Those that don't, well.... I look forward to meeting you in person at the BBQ.
Oh yea, and don't be concerned that Aquanut mentioned in his post that he had done the shopping for the BBQ. I'm sure the girls tagged along (I'm hoping so anyway....lol).
Deepsix
deepsix47
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aquanut said:
No beef here buddy. See, there ya go, thinking again. I've told you about that in the past. That's OK though. We all understand that it can be stressful for some as they get into their....lets say, Golden Years....
Hang in their though and look at it like this. You're a winner, You have me as a friend, all I have is you 
Will give you a call later this evening.Deepsix
Scubatreasure,
I've been away from home for a couple of days, so had missed theh fact that I had p****d you off so much. I re-read your earlier note, which I copy below, and for somebody who claims that he obeys the law, you sure seem willing to bend it out of shape: e.g. take the gold coins back to the lab to verify they are gold coins, pretend they were dropped by a recent THer, keep swinging, etc. Maybe I over-reacted and maybe some of this was said jokingly, and I'm just not tuned into your sense of humor. And maybe it,s not the worst example I have come across, but one that, in my opinion, provides ammo to those people who have, or are forming, a bad opinion of THers.
It might seem obvious that somebody would pick up any gold coins that they came across, but I still remember oldman's post from a couple of years ago about coming across one of the silver bars at the place where he thought that Drake had thrown some of his treasure overboard, and how he left it there because he did not want to jeopardize the possibility of recovering the whole thing legally.
By the way, I don't agree with the extreme and negative views that some archaeologists, such as those quoted from Texas A&M on the other thread, but I think that some people provide them with all the ammo they need.
I'm sorry I won't be at Aquanut's cook-out so that we can punch each other in the nose and then discuss it all over a few drinks, but I'm sure there will be an opportunity to do both at some other time in the future. Could be fun.
The weather over here on the Pacific coast has turned nasty in the last day or so, but I hope it stays good over there for the get-together tomorrow. Wish I could be there, and I am sure it will be productive, no matter what the weather. I see Costco's shares have suddenly gone up on the back of John's shopping trip.
Best wishes,
Mariner
Mariner
I've been away from home for a couple of days, so had missed theh fact that I had p****d you off so much. I re-read your earlier note, which I copy below, and for somebody who claims that he obeys the law, you sure seem willing to bend it out of shape: e.g. take the gold coins back to the lab to verify they are gold coins, pretend they were dropped by a recent THer, keep swinging, etc. Maybe I over-reacted and maybe some of this was said jokingly, and I'm just not tuned into your sense of humor. And maybe it,s not the worst example I have come across, but one that, in my opinion, provides ammo to those people who have, or are forming, a bad opinion of THers.
It might seem obvious that somebody would pick up any gold coins that they came across, but I still remember oldman's post from a couple of years ago about coming across one of the silver bars at the place where he thought that Drake had thrown some of his treasure overboard, and how he left it there because he did not want to jeopardize the possibility of recovering the whole thing legally.
By the way, I don't agree with the extreme and negative views that some archaeologists, such as those quoted from Texas A&M on the other thread, but I think that some people provide them with all the ammo they need.
I'm sorry I won't be at Aquanut's cook-out so that we can punch each other in the nose and then discuss it all over a few drinks, but I'm sure there will be an opportunity to do both at some other time in the future. Could be fun.
The weather over here on the Pacific coast has turned nasty in the last day or so, but I hope it stays good over there for the get-together tomorrow. Wish I could be there, and I am sure it will be productive, no matter what the weather. I see Costco's shares have suddenly gone up on the back of John's shopping trip.
Best wishes,
Mariner
Mariner
scubatreasure said:I would bag up all potential findings to be brought back to the lab for future verification that they are in fact gold coins...and...i...would...KEEP SWINGING!
Once back at the lab, and after doing the proper clean up, and in fact verifying the authenticity of said coin's, I would go back to this site to see if there were any other artifacts or coins to date this site. after finding nothing else I would have come to the conclusion that they were dropped by a treasure hunter from the recent past, oh maybe from the 1960's or 70's or 80's.....and that being the case i would have to say that the coins themselves maybe over fifty years old but the means by which they came to be at this location were not 50 years or older so i would keep them safe in my possession just in case someone was to try and find there long lost coin's, of coarse i would read the lost and found section of the news paper every day...
scubatreasure
Sr. Member
I'm sorry Mariner, I was joking and then got upset that you did not see the humor, which is not right , and I would never strike another man unless he strikes me...personal policy....oh don't get me wrong I have the ability to bring this on with my mouth if need be...LOL....but with all due respect , I'm starting to understand why you guy's get so riled up over statements I make and ones that others make who are not in the loop lets say. Our lack of knowledge and total disregard for the process of finding and salvaging ( And all the steps in between)
comes from our ignorance to the process, and unfortunately as the law states ignorance is no excuse. And I believe that and its why I came on here to try and advance my personal knowledge so I don't do anything stupid that will land me in JAIL...people have this Idea that you can just come to Florida jump in the water and finders keepers...nothing could be farther from the truth, and to some extent I blame the media for putting this Idea in their heads.
I poke fun at this because its all new to me and for all the 26 years of diving that I've done it doesn't add up to a hill of beans because this is a new
world that I've entered and its a lot different than I'm used to....oh yes loose lip's sink ship's and the list of cliche's does apply. All the symposiums i've taken on several different topics from doing underwater drawings of a site to underwater evidence recovery and so on, means nothing till you find a site worth drawing and removing stuff from and only after you have recieved the proper permits and so on. Never mind what would you do if you were to roll up onto a site that is exposing gold and silver in quantity, what would you do , what would any man do, we each have our own set of morals and would handle it differently when put to the test I'm sure
Limo Bob
comes from our ignorance to the process, and unfortunately as the law states ignorance is no excuse. And I believe that and its why I came on here to try and advance my personal knowledge so I don't do anything stupid that will land me in JAIL...people have this Idea that you can just come to Florida jump in the water and finders keepers...nothing could be farther from the truth, and to some extent I blame the media for putting this Idea in their heads.
I poke fun at this because its all new to me and for all the 26 years of diving that I've done it doesn't add up to a hill of beans because this is a new
world that I've entered and its a lot different than I'm used to....oh yes loose lip's sink ship's and the list of cliche's does apply. All the symposiums i've taken on several different topics from doing underwater drawings of a site to underwater evidence recovery and so on, means nothing till you find a site worth drawing and removing stuff from and only after you have recieved the proper permits and so on. Never mind what would you do if you were to roll up onto a site that is exposing gold and silver in quantity, what would you do , what would any man do, we each have our own set of morals and would handle it differently when put to the test I'm sure
Limo Bob
deepsix47
Hero Member
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Now would ya look at this. A good ole fashioned fight ended with just a few simple words. Not like the early days in the Bahamas and the Florida Keys. Two rival crews running into each other in a bar or pulling up alongside one another out on the water and commencing to beat each other into oblivion. Then the guns started being carried. That's pretty much all the regulator's needed as an excuse to step in and create laws to "protect" us and others from us.
Gentlemen, if I was wearing a hat I would tip it to both of you. You've done yourselves proud.
Deepsix
Gentlemen, if I was wearing a hat I would tip it to both of you. You've done yourselves proud.
Deepsix
aquanut
Bronze Member
Mariner,
I've suggested to all the divers coming to the cookout that they bring their wetsuits. The forecast is for a water filled sky.
On the other note, I'm glad you and scubatreasure have worked out your differences.
Myself, I really couldn't say what I would do if confronted with a bunch of gold coins just laying there waiting to be picked up.
NOT!
Sorry,
Aquanut
I've suggested to all the divers coming to the cookout that they bring their wetsuits. The forecast is for a water filled sky.
On the other note, I'm glad you and scubatreasure have worked out your differences.
Myself, I really couldn't say what I would do if confronted with a bunch of gold coins just laying there waiting to be picked up.
NOT!
Sorry,
Aquanut
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