Rev. War Button?

[romeo-1]

OK, this one is for the button experts. I found this today at a site where Rev. War era relics have been found. It is pewter and as you can see marked. I cannot find any regimental markings but know that there are military pictoral buttons...any ideas? Thanks.

 

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[BioProfessor]

We really need a photo of the back, a size reference, and maybe some of the dirt removed. Then we can give better advice.

Daryl

 

[romeo-1]

The back is plain with the remnants of a shank in the center...I have removed a lot of dirt but stopped due to not wanting to damage the button...it is about the size of a modern cent but has obvious edge wear so original size is unknown.

I already know that it is a button...now I am looking for possible military connection. Thanks for looking!

 

[BioProfessor]

Olive oil soak and gentle wash with soap and water shouldn't hurt anything. We need to know if there is backmark. Careful is good but buttons aren't like coins. They can take more handling. If it had gold or silver guild then you might have problems but pewter and tombac are pretty sturdy.

Daryl

 

[romeo-1]

Olive oil soak and gentle wash with soap and water shouldn't hurt anything. We need to know if there is backmark. Careful is good but buttons aren't like coins. They can take more handling. If it had gold or silver guild then you might have problems but pewter and tombac are pretty sturdy.

Daryl

Thanks Daryl...no backmark...just the remnants of the shank. It is pewter and very flaky along the edges...

 

[BioProfessor]

I can see nothing that makes me think military.

Daryl

 

[Iron Patch]

Olive oil soak and gentle wash with soap and water shouldn't hurt anything. We need to know if there is backmark. Careful is good but buttons aren't like coins. They can take more handling. If it had gold or silver guild then you might have problems but pewter and tombac are pretty sturdy.

Daryl

In time oil somewhat works on pewter but too much time will eat the surface leaving shiny mental.

Dug pewter in that conditiion is very far from stable, you can easily break that button, probably just using your fingers. Buttons in general probably require more care because they don't have strong detail like a struck coin.

 

[BioProfessor]

I guess we could discuss coins and buttons, condition and cleaning, and molded versus struck detail for a few days but it's not worth it.

In this particular case, the surface is not corroded and since it is pewter, it doesn't have bronze disease or other issues. It has been in the ground for quite a long time and the surface does not seem to be unstable. The edge, however, is another story. It looks much like a debased Roman coin that is being "eaten" way from the edge. It is very brittle and will flake away until stable metal is reached. Once a button or a coin with this type edge problem is removed from the ground, the edge actually gets more fragile. Some have suggested that this is caused by the moisture level fluctuating. So in my opinion, the surface of this button shows a condition that will support gentle cleaning but the edge is the danger point. Soaking in olive oil will "fill in" the flaking metal and seal it enough where a brief exposure to soap and water will not get more water into the button.

I have dug many copper coins where the detail is really corrosion being held to the surface by who knows what. THESE coins must be treated with the utmost care or the "crud" that has replaced the detail will be quickly removed with cleaning. These coins are different from those that have no surface corrosion and the detail is still metal and not a mixture of oxidized metal and soil chemicals.

So coins that have surface corrosion and buttons that show no surface corrosion must be treated different. In THIS particular case, the button surface shows that it will withstand more cleaning, and still retain detail, than a coin with severe surface corrosion.

So be careful since the edge of the button indicates it is brittle. Don't apply pressure when the button is not supported underneath. But in my opinion, this button will take a gentle surface cleaning and reveal its detail where many corroded coins will not.

Let us know what happens.

Daryl

 

[Iron Patch]

I guess we could discuss coins and buttons, condition and cleaning, and molded versus struck detail for a few days but it's not worth it.

In this particular case, the surface is not corroded and since it is pewter, it doesn't have bronze disease or other issues. It has been in the ground for quite a long time and the surface does not seem to be unstable. The edge, however, is another story. It looks much like a debased Roman coin that is being "eaten" way from the edge. It is very brittle and will flake away until stable metal is reached. Once a button or a coin with this type edge problem is removed from the ground, the edge actually gets more fragile. Some have suggested that this is caused by the moisture level fluctuating. So in my opinion, the surface of this button shows a condition that will support gentle cleaning but the edge is the danger point. Soaking in olive oil will "fill in" the flaking metal and seal it enough where a brief exposure to soap and water will not get more water into the button.

I have dug many copper coins where the detail is really corrosion being held to the surface by who knows what. THESE coins must be treated with the utmost care or the "crud" that has replaced the detail will be quickly removed with cleaning. These coins are different from those that have no surface corrosion and the detail is still metal and not a mixture of oxidized metal and soil chemicals.

So coins that have surface corrosion and buttons that show no surface corrosion must be treated different. In THIS particular case, the button surface shows that it will withstand more cleaning, and still retain detail, than a coin with severe surface corrosion.

So be careful since the edge of the button indicates it is brittle. Don't apply pressure when the button is not supported underneath. But in my opinion, this button will take a gentle surface cleaning and reveal its detail where many corroded coins will not.

Let us know what happens.

Daryl

Your latest reply sure doesn't sound like the quote below.

"Careful is good but buttons aren't like coins. They can take more handling. If it had gold or silver guild then you might have problems but pewter and tombac are pretty sturdy."

Don't think you have found many of these if you think oil, then soap and water is the answer. (probaby already cleaned with soap and water)

 

[BioProfessor]

In general, tombac and pewter buttons don't have the bronze disease and surface detail being replaced by oxides that non-silver coins do. These buttons as well as many/most military buttons can withstand "handling" (cleaning is usually the most basic of handling) that oxidized/corroded or diseased coins cannot. Caustic or abrasive cleaners will do great harm to the guild on a button and it will be gone before you realize it. Most people find this out the hard way.

No I haven't found many of these. I'm still in the triple digits. 300-400 not thousands.

From the looks of the button, it seems to have only been brushed. And while olive oil isn't the answer, it will temporarily seal the coin to the infusion of water.

Just what I have learned.

Daryl

 

[Iron Patch]

In general, tombac and pewter buttons don't have the bronze disease and surface detail being replaced by oxides that non-silver coins do. These buttons as well as many/most military buttons can withstand "handling" (cleaning is usually the most basic of handling) that oxidized/corroded or diseased coins cannot. Caustic or abrasive cleaners will do great harm to the guild on a button and it will be gone before you realize it. Most people find this out the hard way.

No I haven't found many of these. I'm still in the triple digits. 300-400 not thousands.

From the looks of the button, it seems to have only been brushed. And while olive oil isn't the answer, it will temporarily seal the coin to the infusion of water.

Just what I have learned.

Daryl

Three or four hundred? You must have a great early military collection. You should post them.

 

[BioProfessor]

Over 95% are slick, I toss them. The fields of the UK are full of them and it is too much of a hassle to put them through the export process and pay the postage to ship them home. I do post some of them.

Daryl

 

[Iron Patch]

Over 95% are slick, I toss them. The fields of the UK are full of them and it is too much of a hassle to put them through the export process and pay the postage to ship them home. I do post some of them.

Daryl

Nice but there is not a single pewter in the bunch.

I have a military with a design like your Harwich, can't remember if I id'ed it. The design is the gates of something or other? Can't remember, has been several years.

 

[BioProfessor]

Just don't like those kind of buttons. I keep some, trade most, just not my style.

Daryl

 

[Iron Patch]

Just don't like those kind of buttons. I keep some, trade most, just not my style.

Daryl

Again, nice buttons but no pewter!

I like those early animal tombacs, have three I believe.

 

[BioProfessor]

Then I guess I'm wrong. Never really got into the pewter/tomback - tin/copper alloy issue. One person's pewter is another one's tombac.

Daryl

 

[Iron Patch]

Then I guess I'm wrong. Never really got into the pewter/tomback - tin/copper alloy issue. One person's pewter is another one's tombac.

Daryl

Gotcha, but they're still nice.

I happen to have a picture of two of my animal ones. They don't pop up often here because I'd be well into the hundreds of tombac buttons, probably a thousand or more and only three of these.

...also my Welch button.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

heres some pewter

 

[BioProfessor]

Nothing wrong with not being right. But maybe there is a time to step away and let others have a say.

Sometimes knowing when you're done is a good thing.

Thanks for helping me realize this.

Give 'em hell guys and girls. It's been a trip.

Daryl

 

[Iron Patch]

heres some pewter

ah yes, the pewters that are so good that they don't look like pewter! Still can't get over the quality of those compared to what I find.