Requested not to hunt a small town park...

[luckymin]

This morning I was hunting in a small town (pop 262) city park where I've hunted before many times, and one of the maintenance people asked me not to do it. She was very nice and we talked for quite a while, I attempted to convince her that the way I'm digging doesn't do long term damage (plugging, keeping the dirt on a towel, replacing the plug, it looks real nice when I'm done). She's unconvinced. I can see it being a problem when dry, but we've had 2 inches of rain and the soil is nice and moist. She said she gets scolded by the powers-that-be because the town spent lots of money a couple years ago on seed. Now I should add that 3 days ago this town held their big local celebration with tents on the lawn, biffys, beer, a street dance, and probably at least a thousand people. This was right after the 2 inches of rain, and the lawn was DEFINITELY put under more stress from this one day's even than I could ever do to it. Where the biffy was is completely devoid of grass now. I explained this to her and told her that as a public park, it's open for public activities within reason and nothing I can do would hurt it more than the local squirrels, kids, dogs, picnickers, volleyballers, etc. etc. etc. I wasn't confrontational with her and I plan to talk more with her, but knowing that most towns DON'T have laws against detecting because there isn't a legitimate reason to disallow it (unless of course the detectorists don't do it nicely), I'd like to put together some information for her to help her understand my perspective and reassure her bosses that this isn't a long-term problem. Can you good folks give me some information I can pass on to her? And perhaps tell me the absolute best way to dig parks that prevents damage, if there's anything I'm doing wrong.

 

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[rmptr]

My opinion is most likely NOT in the mainstay for Tnet.

If you have done your best to convince maintenance personnel you are conducting very selective search and retrieval techniques, as opposed to significant general damage created by various large groups and other sport enthusiasts, you may need to go the extra mile and insist upon your right to use public property for personal entertainment, lacking a well founded local ordinance that would preclude such activity.

The person does not have the authority to tell you NO.

Call the person to the boards and demand they cite you for violation of some law or leave you in peace.

If they do have the authority to cite you for damaging public property, or call in an enforcement officer to do so, accept the challenge to have the matter heard before a judge.

Advise them that would be even further imposition on your personal freedom and liberty, and would indeed cost you money you can not afford to spend.

Take plenty of pictures and get together common evidence of metal detecting, as compared to other common use, and present it to the local magistrate when the time comes.

Dress well and present your case pleasantly as you are able.

Good luck !

 

[luckymin]

thanks rmptr and any other people who post. Turns out I have a friend whose son in law is on the city council of this town, and ironically, HE LET ME HUNT ON an old house yard he bought this summer, so he's definitely not personally against it. I think he can give me some info about why this is a problem for someone in the town. I'm going to also drop by and visit a local historian who used to detect there (and got me excited about it in the first place), and also visit the city gal to show her some of the "goodies" I've found. Maybe I'll offer to donate, for display, a very unique button I found on nearby property in the town, to show them that good things can be found and shared. Lots will involve just gentle pr for now, and hope for the best!

 

[johnnycat]

You need to ask the people in charge for permission , not a park employee. I've tried the, "I'll donate something to the museum" thing. Hasn't worked for me yet. I have even suggested that I would only get coins out with my probe without cutting a flap. Good Luck. Sounds like you might have an, "in".

 

[luckymin]

This town is so small I can almost talk to everyone who lives there in an afternoon, lol. It's so vague about who's against it (I didn't pin the gal down, but I will today), but at least with one person on the council on my side it should work out okay. I just don't want them to decide it'd be easier to have a city ordinance against it, rather than deal with me or anyone else. I'll keep everyone posted. Would still like to know if there are any statistics or stories out there about whether or not detecting does damage in the long term...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Luckymin, no: detecting does no long-term damage. In fact, IMHO, it does no short-term damage either. In fact, I would argue it does no damage at all, if you know what you're doing. For starters, just as you said, if you go when it's moist, then ruffle and stomp your plug, it will not even temporarily die. But here's where the rub starts: Even though WE md'rs know this for a fact, who do you thinks going to win the debate, if you so much as even talk about "probing" or something? The knee-jerk reaction by some people, even if you only so much as probe for 1" stuff, is "oh no, holes". And sure, you can debate them, and go above their heads, etc.. But then you risk someone further up the ladder (who may never have even given the matter second thought, before a tiff came accross his desk), making a rule.

I had a similar situation: Got booted from a city park, where I knew for a fact there was no specific's that dis-allowed m'ding. I thought, as you did "I'm gonna fight this". So I contacted a lawyer (whom I have on retainer already, so it didn't cost me anything), and asked him: Can a park personell arbitrarily tell someone to stop doing an activity, that's not dis-allowed? I mean, doesn't there have to be a rule that they need to cite, rather than just a capricious whim? Like, what would stop them from telling someone "you can't wear that blue shirt" or "you can't whistle dixie" or whatever?" The lawyers answer has stuck with me ever since then, and it is fitting to your situation too:

The appointed rep's of any govt. entity (city, county, state, etc..) are given latitude to interpret laws as they see fit, to fit the invidual situations at they develope. And the powers above those cops, rangers, grounds-keepers, etc... will usually always side on the side of these duly appointed rep's. So for example: if there is a law that says "no dog walking", and a cop comes up and tries to stop you from walking your 3-legged dog, you might say "but officer, I was not technically walking him, since he only has 3 legs, he HOPS, not walks", etc... You can see that the officer would have the latitude to interpret that you are still in violation.

Another example: My wife last night was putting on nail-polish as she was driving us to an event. She saw a cop, and jokingly asked me: "is there any laws about putting on nail polish as you drive?" To which I said "no, but if you were drifting in and out of lanes while doing so, he'd probably say the nail-polish thing FALLS UNDER a "driving while distracted" clause". Now of course, the average person would NOT be distracted doing such a thing while driving. I can eat my burger and drive just fine thankyou! But you see though, that the laws were written vaguely on purpose, so as to be applied and interpretted as situations dictate.

So sometimes, rather than risk someone coming up and "interpretting" such a thing, it's better to go at low traffic times, to begin with, so as not to be an eye-sore, to begin with. Not that this means you were necessarily doing anything wrong, but why give opportunity for a busy-body to jump to erroneous conclusions, to begin with?

Unfortunately, you aleady have your situation past-tense. Personally, if it were me, I'd avoid that one person in the future. But in a town this small, that may not be possible. So if you really wanted to return to this park, and seeing as how you "have connections" and truly weren't doing any damage, maybe in this one case, it's something where you can educate them differently? On state scales, this tactic is almost always a loosing cause. In fact, it usually just gets clarifications specifically mentioning md'ing, when people fight and lobby (as if ... it's just a squeeky wheel that "gets the grease" and ends up just creating laws). But on a small town thing like this, I bet you can .......with a lot of smiles and getting her to drop her "damage" misconception, you can get changed.

 

[luckymin]

Thanks Tom, that's lots of good info and insight. I wish I hadn't stopped there during "office hours" but I've been there so often, and they whole town has seen me. Maybe it's been building (we need to find a way to stop her!) or maybe it became an issue because instead of just me alone, I've brought a detecting friend a couple times, and then they see it as a growing problem. Let's hope they see my side of it anyway, and perhaps we could agree, for example, that I only hunt when the ground is wet, etc.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Well, here, nobody had ever asked to md in the town park. Skulking around the 'ordinances', they found nothing about it.

However, we do have a local museum, with alot of railroad and other history of the area.


We offered to donate anything 'historical' to the museum (and we have), and everyone seems to be happy about it. (we did go through the plug explanation too - which they did seem to understand).

Next summer, we do plan to do a little volunteering for the local museum - they have trouble finding people to man it to keep it open all summer.

B

 

[wolcottdigger]

The same thing happened to me, the head of the park and recreation department even E-Mailed me asking me not to detect in the parks in their town.

 

[Sandman]

In my area our county parks were closed to detecting for some reason. We explained what a benefit the hobby was for seniors to use and the trash that they would remove. We got the rules changed to being welcome to detect. If any damage is done it is handled the same way if a slob game hunter violates the game laws. Hunting coins or game animals are just not outlawed.

 

[silvercop]

send the mayor of the town an email or letter and explain what you are doing and see if he has any problems with it. if he replies keep a copy of the letter the next time a city employee approaches you and show it to them, (if the mayor has no problem). this will slow an over jealous city employee down to a crawl. i should know i am one( a city employee that is)

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I use the Detectorpro Uniprobe, to isolate the target once you have located it with your detector (you will not find a better probe, it locates 4-6 inches deep), then I use the EZ-Dig-R system to recover the target. I do not cut a plug, I insert the the Dig-r probe, wedge the hole side to side, insert Uniprobe to isolate the location and recover the target with the Ez-Dig-R mini shovel. You then just pinch the hole closed.........There is no visible signs when finished......


When finished, there is no plug cut, no fresh dirt on the surface, you can not see where I was digging. Unless the city official was standing over your shoulder, they will not be able to find the spot you just recovered from.

I have posted on this method in the past. I have had city park official stand and watch me recover, then walk off and not say a word to me about my digging..

http://www.detectorpro.com/uniprobe.htm

EZDigR Ststem

 

[Eric Willoughby]

I use the Detectorpro Uniprobe, to isolate the target once you have located it with your detector (you will not find a better probe, it locates 4-6 inches deep), then I use the EZ-Dig-R system to recover the target. I do not cut a plug, I insert the the Dig-r probe, wedge the hole side to side, insert Uniprobe to isolate the location and recover the target with the Ez-Dig-R mini shovel. You then just pinch the hole closed.........There is no visible signs when finished......


When finished, there is no plug cut, no fresh dirt on the surface, you can not see where I was digging. Unless the city official was standing over your shoulder, they will not be able to find the spot you just recovered from.

I have posted on this method in the past. I have had city park official stand and watch me recover, then walk off and not say a word to me about my digging..

http://www.detectorpro.com/uniprobe.htm

EZDigR Ststem

Now, that's SLICK!

 

[luckymin]

I agree, VERY slick! I'm going to talk to them about the possibility of hunting with their full blessing if I have one of these tools.
thanks everyone for your comments and help!

 

[allen]

go to the head of the parks and recreation and ask permission from them.

 

[luckymin]

go to the head of the parks and recreation and ask permission from them.

Unfortunately, in a town this small, there are just a handful of city employees, and the gal who asked me to not dig is the only parks/recreation person. What I'm going to do is start with a letter to the council which meets Tuesday night. Of course they could decide then and there to vote against any detecting whatsoever, but I'm hoping they agree to some sort of compromise, eg I only hunt after we've had plenty of rain, etc.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

If your small town is like this small town (we have only a handful of employees, also), I would do whatever it is you do to TALK at the next council meeting - don't ask them in a letter.

I say this, because you can get up and present your case, in front of council and citizens alike (if its like here). It's alot easier to get a negative answer when the council-people can talk among themselves, then it is to explain the hobby and your interests, and how you fill holes, pick up garbage, etc. It also leaves them in the position to answer you in legal terms (ordinances, if there are any), and to get support from the local folks. In other words, a real, healthy discussion, rather than the 'this is my park, I'll do want I want" type of environment.

Here, you go to the office, tell them you want to be on the list to speak at the next council meeting, and they put you on the schedule. Bring supporters, if you have them. Be non-confrontational - be matter-of-fact - be informational.

B

 

[George (MN)]

So, if they reseeded a couple years ago, did they see any evidence of holes, like small spots of yellow grass, after the reseeding? If you've been there detecting many times since the reseeding, could you ask them to point out some detecting damage?

Could you get someone with authority or influence to watch you remove something without causing damage?

I'm just detecting new places, so I use a screwdriver with 6" long blade, and go into places acting like I own them just as much as anyone else does. They know I'm not doing damage & I know it, because almost never is there any evidence of where I removed something. I even detect on the grass in front of the community center, which also contains park & rec HQ, in my suburb.

I have had nervous groundskeepers scold me for digging a plug. As for police asking me to leave, it hasn't happened on city park or public school property.

When I was told by a park & rec person no digging or disturbing soil, I called police asking if I could be fined & they said maybe if you left a big hole that could injure someone, other than that use your own discretion, we don't have time for this. So, in effect, permission granted! HH, George (MN)

 

[rmptr]

Most laws and ordinances were enacted for a reason.
Some are right, and some are wrong.
If you see one that is wrong, do what you can to get it changed.

Personally, I've never been able to put on fingernail polish well in a car.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

B