Relics or junk??

[0121stockpicker]

Any ideas. Bullets old or new and any ideas what cal or type of gun they came from.

Buttons - old or new?

Lead ball - new shotgun shot or old musket / pistol ball?

Any insights appreciated.

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Photographing an object on a white background often causes the object to be darker than it actually is, which obscures the details needed for accurate identification.

Most of your photos appear too dark to show the details we need to see.

But based on what I can make out in them:
Your buttons are old (apparently from the 19th-Century), and your bullets and lead ball are from the 20th-century.

The short fat bullet appears to be a .45-caliber automatic-pistol bullet. The tall skinny sharp-pointed one is a Military rifle type copper-jacketed lead bullet.

The total lack of oxidation on the lead ball indicates it is less than 50 years old, and perhaps a lot less than that.

The photo showing the back of your two buttons seems to show they have a "backmark" (maker's-marking) consisting of raised lettering in a depressed channel. If that is an accurate interpretation, they date from the 1830s to 1860s.

The photo of the front of one button shows a"checkerboard" or "basket-weave" design, indicating it is a civilian-clothing "Fashion" button.

Please make some new photos with better lighting, preferably NOT on a white background, so we can see the the details on the buttons' front and back (such as what the backmark's lettering says).

Also, please make better-lit photos of the bullets, AND make precise measurements of the bullet's diameter (in hundredths of an inch), so we can accurately identify their exact caliber and type.

 

[0121stockpicker]

Thank you for your help and suggestions. I only have a camera phone so hopefully that will do the trick. What is the best color background to use? Should I try to clean the items to bring out more detail - the buttons in particular? I did clean the lead ball and that removed the patina from it - oops.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

A "medium-color" background is best... not too dark or too light. Notice that the photo showing a button in your fingers is the ne which came out least dark.

But finger-holding tends to cause the camera's auto-focus function to focus on your hand instead of the object you're holding.

Also, for inexperienced photographers (like me), outdoor light tends to give a better result than indoor light.

Close-ups are important. Remember, if you can't read the backmark in your photo, neither can we.

You asked if some additional cleaning would help. It often does, but let's try some new photos first.

Can you read what the button-backmarks say, looking with your own eyes in real-life?

Did you dig the bullets and buttons? If so, what country and state/province?

 

[0121stockpicker]

Will try. Everything was found MDing in Massachusetts the other day. 2 bullets at an old military base. Buttons and lead ball in woods. I'll try some outside photos tomorrow if we get some sun. Thanks for your interest and knowledge. 2 buttons look similar and were found near each other. Found a geo II half penny in the woods so there were definitely folks there a long time ago. Bedt

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

I'll look forward to seeing the new (better lit) photos. Meanwhile, you forgot one of my questions. Can your eyes make out any of the lettering on the back of your buttons? (There seems to be some showing slightly in the dark photos.)

 

[0121stockpicker]

There definitely is writing, but I can make any of it out. I'll look again in the sunlight tomorrow.

 

[BosnMate]

I photo shopped the picture hoping to see the bullets a little better. Frankly it didn't do too much good, except I do agree with Cannonball guy that they are full metal jacket -- FMJ -- military bullets, one a 45 caliber pistol, the other .30 cal rifle. Both types of ammo were sold as surplus extensively to civilians after WWII and Korea. I remember getting .30 cal machine gun ammo that had to be unlinked in order to shoot it. And we never felt any need to save the brass. Those were the days.

 

[0121stockpicker]

Thank you for info. So these are the bullets that no longer have the cartridge - ie they have been fired? Sorry for the very very basic question - not a hunter or shooter. These were found at an old military base in MA so it makes sense that they are military ammo. I find a ton of spent cartridges there also.

 

[0121stockpicker]

I hope these picks are better. Realize the buttons themselves are pretty dark - though look like they might be brass underneath?? Front is a checkerboard like design on the interior surrounded by dots. Back side has writing but I can't read it.

 

[BosnMate]

Thank you for info. So these are the bullets that no longer have the cartridge - ie they have been fired? Sorry for the very very basic question - not a hunter or shooter. These were found at an old military base in MA so it makes sense that they are military ammo. I find a ton of spent cartridges there also.

Yeah, they have been fired. It seems to me that an old WWII army base would be a great place to find silver money.

 

[mamabear]

one mans relic is another mans junk. It's all relics to me.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

0121stockpicker wrote:
> So these are the bullets that no longer have the cartridge - ie they have been fired?

Yes, firing is the main reason bullets which originally came in a metal cartridge are found without the metal cartridge-casing. But occasionally, somebody removed the bullet from the casing, perhaps to get the gunpowder. In particular, we knppw civil war soldiers soldiers sometimes did that because gunpowder helps you start a campfire when all you've got is wet firewood.

That being said... your new photo shows rifling-marks on your .45-caliber copper-jacketed bullet. The rifling-marks (ridges running up from the bullet's base towards its nose) are made by the rifling-grooves in the gunbarrel when the bullet gets fired. Your photo doesn't show rifling-marks on the 30-caliber bullet, but perhaps your eyes can spot them in real-life if the rifling-marks are there.

About your buttons:
The new photos show what I suspected seeing in your previous photos... a "backmark" consisting of raised lettering inside a depressed channel. Button-collectors call it an RMDC (Raised-Mark-in-Depressed-Channel) backmark. On 2-piece and 3-piece (hollow) buttons, an RMDC-type backmark means the button was manufactured sometime between the 1830s and 1860s (although a very few are from the 1870s).

A button's backmark usually shows a name of a button-making company or a button seller. There is a collectors' reference-book which tells the time-period of such companies, to help us date the button.

So, I suggest you do some very careful additional cleaning to reveal the name in the backmark of your buttons. The method I've used for that is to dip the tip of a toothbrush into household Ammonia-based cleaner such as Top Job, or "straight" (pure) Ammonia ...or as an alternative, lemon-juice. Put a few drops on the button's back, wait only a minute or two (no more than that), and gently scrub the button's back with the toothbrush's bristles. Then rinse the button thoroughly with water. If necessary, repeat the cleaning.

Note, "straight" Ammonia is a stronger chemical than Top Job or lemon-juice, so do not let pure Ammonia stay on the button for more than two minutes per cleaning. Top Job and lemon-juice take longer to work (usually about 5 minutes).

If the cleaning reveals any of the letters in the backmark, tell us what they are. We "long-experienced" button-collectors can often decipher a backmark without knowing what every letter in it is. For example, in a recent discussion in the What-Is-it forum, a digger could only read the letters "drick" in his dug button's backmark. I knew that it meant "Kendrick & Co." ...which enabled me to date the button to strictly the 1830s.

 

[0121stockpicker]

I can make out ....rnham on one of them.

 

[0121stockpicker]

Benedict Burnham Extra

Thanks for the cleaning tip. Used lemon juice, worked great.

Eric

 

[0121stockpicker]

Yeah, they have been fired. It seems to me that an old WWII army base would be a great place to find silver money.

Found a Franklin half and a liberty quarter. Does not appear to have ever been detected. I just go around a lake at the old base that is now open to the public. I don't go off the beaten path at all as I'm a little nervous about digging some old live munitions!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Thanks for providing the name in the backmark. As expected, it does enable me to date your button's time of manufacture.

The firm of Benedict & Burham was a button-manufacturing company located in Waterbury CT. It was in business under that name from 1834 to 1843. It became Benedict & Burnham Manufacturing Company in 1843, and ultimately became the world-famous button-maker The Waterbury Button Co.

Because the company-name on your button's backmark does not include Mfg. or Mg., it is from 1834-to-1843.

Hopefully, you'll eventually able to read your other button's backmark.

Speaking of which, you posted a new and better-lit photo of the "checkerboard" button, but not the other button. Looking forward to seeing that one better-lit.

 

[0121stockpicker]

Both buttons are the same and have the same back mark. It's interesting that I found them almost in the same place but on two separate hunts - someone must have had their jacket busted open?

 

[0121stockpicker]

Thanks for your interest and help. I have a new appreciation for the history of buttons now!