Real Cobs Declared Fake

[SamsSon]

I used to polish copper maravedis cobs for people who wanted them for jewelry or who just liked shiny old coins.

I no longer do this because some would take these polished cobs to a "local coin shop" and usually they were declared "fake."

I knew they were genuine because I got them corroded from the fields in Spain. And too they were all checked by an expert Spanish authority prior to my selling them. Yet most "coin dealers" said "fake."

There are really few out there who know Spanish coins/cobs. This is especially true of the copper 16th & 17th century cobs.

So, when you buy a cob--be it silver reale or silvered copper cob or solid copper cob--take it to someone who knows what he's (she's) talking about. There are way too many self-proclaimed part-time "experts" out there today.

Here's one of my favorite maravedis cobs. By-the-way, your average "coin shop" would immediately pronounce this "fake." Why? well--it's not all dirty--that's why!

 

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[carolus2]

Check with "Sedwick", It looks real to me,

Carolus 2

 

[SamsSon]

Check with "Sedwick", It looks real to me,

Carolus 2

Thanks, but when it comes to selling these on ebay one really runs into a nightmare.

Many buyers run them to their local coin shop and the shop keeper declares them all fakes.

Then an angry buyer wants his money back and he leaves negative feedback as well. With ebay's new NO NEGATIVE FEEDBACK system for sellers, the seller is left holding the bag and is unjustly branded a fraud.

 

[ivan salis]

uh their called "cleaned" by most dealers and everyone in the coin biz knows NOT to clean their coins -- the dirt on a coin "its patina" is it how it shows its age and true condition -- thus cleaned coins are HATED by coin dealers --- and are thus branded as modern fakes by them due to their overly clean nature.

 

[SamsSon]

uh their called "cleaned" by most dealers and everyone in the coin biz knows NOT to clean their coins -- the dirt on a coin "its patina" is it how it shows its age and true condition -- thus cleaned coins are HATED by coin dealers --- and are thus branded as modern fakes by them due to their overly clean nature.

Hum? Thanks, for the info.

Let me get this straight...

So then they're genuine cobs but fake because they're clean?

I wonder if all the members of TreasureNet know that if they clean their finds then they're all fake?

Good thing Mel Fisher didn't know this when they cleaned their finds and sold them as genuine!

No, I'm sorry, the information you offer is unsound and totally ludicrous.

 

[Trez]

well, I understand what your saying to a point...

Ivan, did make a point, I also prefer uncleaned (and not overly cleaned) cobs/reales/maravedis as to ones that are cleaned/overly, does that make me think one is fake, nope..just don't like shiny.

Coin dealers and serious collectors... I would think do prefer their coinage to be in a uncleaned natural patina condition or at least not over-cleaned like the examples you "mentioned" in your last sentence (I can't stand those overly cleaned Atocha cobs) but...when they don't over clean them...their great.

My opinion is that the general public who buys their cobs probably don't really care about patina or even know what it means and they see clean and shiny as a good thing, nicer to wear around their necks.

Bottom line about cleaning this style of coinage I feel depends on who buys, collects, or sells it...and all have different ideas when it comes to what is important to them.
And as far as deeming them "fakes" I don't think a true collector or dealer (who specializes in cob coinage) would call them fake...but a pawn shop/avg. coin shop dealer may indeed.
But, who really cares about them. lol
Just my opinion...

Trez

 

[SamsSon]

well, I understand what your saying to a point...

Ivan, did make a point, I also prefer uncleaned (and not overly cleaned) cobs/reales/maravedis as to ones that are cleaned/overly, does that make me think one is fake, nope..just don't like shiny.

Coin dealers and serious collectors... I would think do prefer their coinage to be in a uncleaned natural patina condition or at least not over-cleaned like the examples you "mentioned" in your last sentence (I can't stand those overly cleaned Atocha cobs) but...when they don't over clean them...their great.

My opinion is that the general public who buys their cobs probably don't really care about patina or even know what it means and they see clean and shiny as a good thing, nicer to wear around their necks.

Bottom line about cleaning this style of coinage I feel depends on who buys, collects, or sells it...and all have different ideas when it comes to what is important to them.
And as far as deeming them "fakes" I don't think a true collector or dealer (who specializes in cob coinage) would call them fake...but a pawn shop/avg. coin shop dealer may indeed.
But, who really cares about them. lol
Just my opinion...

Trez

Yes, very good post and I agree in part.

My point was, just because they're cleaned doesn't mean coins/cobs/relics cease to be what they are--coins/cobs/relics.

What was stated above was that in the minds of some dealers, cleaned coins/cobs/relics cease to be what they are, and that's absurd.

True, patina is great and I personally prefer it on many types of old objects. But to tell people my over-cleaned cobs are "cheap, fake, modern made tokens" (yes, one dealer said this about some of my cobs) is grounds for lawsuit.

See, when a dealer tells a customer he has purchased fakes the customer views this as fraud and the reputation of the seller has been tainted. That gentlemen is grounds for lawsuit.

Someone should take these fraudulent dealers to court.

 

[jeff of pa]

uh their called "cleaned" by most dealers and everyone in the coin biz knows NOT to clean their coins -- the dirt on a coin "its patina" is it how it shows its age and true condition -- thus cleaned coins are HATED by coin dealers --- and are thus branded as modern fakes by them due to their overly clean nature.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think Ivan is saying they are Fake because they were Cleaned.

I think he's saying dealers would rather Say they are Fake
because they are cleaned rather then
have anything to do with them.

Because they like coins that look old.

I got an Old buffalo Nickel for free
once from one of these Joker mail order Dealers.
it was in AG Condition but Polished like a Proof.
I hated it.

 

[SamsSon]

uh their called "cleaned" by most dealers and everyone in the coin biz knows NOT to clean their coins -- the dirt on a coin "its patina" is it how it shows its age and true condition -- thus cleaned coins are HATED by coin dealers --- and are thus branded as modern fakes by them due to their overly clean nature.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think Ivan is saying they are Fake because they were Cleaned.

I think he's saying dealers would rather Say they are Fake
because they are cleaned rather then
have anything to do with them.

Because they like coins that look old.

I don't know what Ivan meant because I can't read his mind, Jeff.

But consider how a buyer would take it. He takes his newly purchased cleaned cobs/relics, etc., to a dealer to see if they're real (genuine). When the dealer uses that word "Fake" that's all they're going to hear.

And too some dealers come right out clearly and tell the buyer he was cheated. That is, the cobs were modern made and fakes. I've actually had this happen.

But the whole issue is they are NOT fakes.

 

[jeff of pa]

But consider how a buyer would take it. He takes his newly purchased cleaned cobs/relics, etc., to a dealer to see if they're real (genuine). When the dealer uses that word "Fake" that's all they're going to hear.

But the whole issue is they are NOT fakes.

Yes but only a Coin Gradeing Expert may be able to tell
Because back then there were strong & weak strikes.

and they may declair them Fake or at least Cleaned.

Bottom Line Don't heavily Clean or Buy Heavely Cleaned coins
If you want them to have Value
and be Accepted as Real. Especially Coins of that age.

 

[SamsSon]

But consider how a buyer would take it. He takes his newly purchased cleaned cobs/relics, etc., to a dealer to see if they're real (genuine). When the dealer uses that word "Fake" that's all they're going to hear.

But the whole issue is they are NOT fakes.

Yes but only a Coin Gradeing Expert may be able to tell
Because back then there were strong & weak strikes.

and they may declair them Fake or at least Cleaned.

Bottom Line Don't heavily Clean or Buy Heavely Cleaned coins
If you want them to have Value
and be Accepted as Real. Especially Coins of that age.

That's the safer way that's for sure but the fact is some people want them cleaned.

And too, at what point is an item cleaned too much? Who determines this?

Is a dug large cent no longer a large cent because somebody used electrolysis on it?

Is an ancient coin no longer an ancient coin because somebody cleaned it? All ancient coins (except gold) are cleaned to some extent yet they are regularly sold as genuine ancient coins every day on ebay (and online stores) and it thousands of coin shops around the world. And this includes those totally stripped of all patina.

 

[jeff of pa]

And too, at what point is an item cleaned too much? Who determines this?

Is a dug large cent no longer a large cent because somebody used electrolysis on it?

Is an ancient coin no longer an ancient coin because somebody cleaned it? All ancient coins are cleaned to some extent yet they are regularly sold as genuine ancient coins every day on ebay (and online stores) and it thousands of coin shops around the world. And this includes those totally stripped of all patina.

as I mentioned above with the prooflike Worn out Buffalo

That was Overboard.

Just so their Fake adds can Read "Bright & Shiny Old Coins".


No they are not fake but as you suggested Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder.

But as I'm trying to point out Value is a different thing all together to collectors.

and a cleaned Ancient can't easily be seperated from a fake ancient if the same metal
is used.

It is why Exact Reproductions of US Coins must Say COPY

 

[ivan salis]

the point I trying to get at is whole as a "piece" of jewelry --shiney coins look cool --- however as far as a a "collector coin" goes --a "cleaned" shiney coin is "ruined" ---- spanish cob money if you want them to retain their collector value should NOT BE CLEANED TO SHINEY ---they should be as much as possible left in their "raw" state or cleaned very very little --- a overly cleaned "shiney" very old coin tends to "scream" its a fake to most coin dealers doing a "brief check" ---which unless their buying it is all their going to do --- most coin collectors want nothing to do with any "cleaned" coins as their buyers will not touch them--- coin collector generally recoil in horror from "cleaned coins"---so most coins shops who want to sell coins to these coin collectors---don't want anything to do with them either --- and rather than say its cleaned thus the value is ruined as a collectors item --they take the easy way out and say its "worthless" or a "fake"(since it not in it "natural condition" or even close to it--- to them it is a "fake" because to them has been processed to make it appear in better condition than it should be in) ---because even if its real its "ruined " as far as they care.

yes the coin is still the coin and that will never change ---however the coins collector value is ruined by overcleaning it (making it "shiney") but now its good to go as "jewelry"---so think carefully what you plan to do with it and if folks plan to buy it explain these facts to the kind folks who want to buy said coins;

and that me buckoas, is what me thoughts on the subject at hand are ---so now ye know me mind on the subject ---- aaarrrggghhh ---Ivan

 

[SamsSon]

I think I see the problem here.

I'm saying it's wrong to use the word fake when it's not really fake.

You're both saying that some coin dealers consider over cleaned (or sometimes just cleaned) coins as fakes. Not that they really are fakes...it's that they look at them that way.

This is the exact problem.

Calling a genuine coin a fake just because it's over cleaned is misleading and actually dishonest. They should say something like "Oh crap! maybe that thing is genuine but I hate over cleaned coins so get it away from me!" This would be stating ones opinion and it would at least be honest.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[ivan salis]

because of the "cleaning" they are saying the coins "condition" is fake no nessicary the coin but it hard to tell a fresh minted "shiney" fake coin from a over cleaned legit one ---but in their eyes they both not legit --since ieven if the coin is REAL it not in its "natural state" or even close to it -- folks sometime attempt to bump up a coins grade by cleaning it to make it appear better than it really should be graded at -- sometimes in the case of rare coins --bumping it up a grade will greatly increase its value say from fine 12 to very fine 20 --its a form of "con" --and that is why coin dealers hate cleaned coins ---so to them a cleaned coins "true" condition is not being properly represented thus its a "fake" to them --- grading coins is very subjective -- beware that sometimes when buying coins dishonest dealers will low ball grade them so they pay a low price for them and then honest or overly high grade them for sale to another person to get the most $$$ out of a coin --- lets say the coin should be a very fine 20 -- to you he says its fine 12 --then either sales at as a fine 20 or "pushes it " to a extra fine to try and get more $$$ ---- the red book of coins has a very basic very general guide to condition -- fine condition should be blah blah blah-- the differace between buying price and selling priceof a coin is the coin dealers life blood -- hes like a used car dealer basically (remember that)---some dealers if a coin was not gotten from them will say fake to everything in hopes the person will get rid of the so called "fake" coin and then "return" to them to "buy" a "real coin" -- thus giving them bussiness

 

[SamsSon]

They should state that the coin is cleaned and thereby reduced in value. That would be acceptable and accurate in most cases except ancient bronze Roman coins and other such relics of the past.

But once again, to use the word "fake" is to state or strongly imply that an item is something other than what it is in essence.

This is very misleading to the average uninformed buyer and extremely unfair to the seller of said item.

In my ads I always told my buyers everything. I even posted before and after pictures of the cobs. Before cleaning and after cleaning I mean.

I know what you and Jeff and saying but in my opinion you're skirting the real issue here.

You're talking dealer preference and prejudice and I'm talking facts.

 

[Moe (fl)]

I agree in part with SamsSon. It is not technically correct to call a cleaned genuine cob or maravedi fake because it has been cleaned too much! Perhaps the cob has lost value, but it is still "real".

As we all know a fake cob is a copy and it has nothing to do with a genuine cob. The term fake should not be used to describe an overly cleaned genuine cob.

I also agree with Ivan that overly cleaned or shiny but genuine cobs may be hard to distinguish sometimes from fake ones. As a buyer, if unsure, I may choose the uncleaned cobs over shiny ones because it gives me a little more assurance that it is genuine.

HH.
Moe 8)

 

[ivan salis]

oh the coin is real as in minted long ago no doubt there --- but its the coins "condition" that is "fake" * it is "unnaturally" clean and thus hard to tell from a modern "fake--copy" coin --( coin dealers judge a coins "condition" based on its looks and its "condition" factors in heavily as to its $$$$ worth --- coins that are that old to look "proper" to a coin dealer should "show their age and "true" condition ---- thus overly cleaned coins "appear" to look like modern "fakes" --- one should be think carefully about what one wants to do with a coin BEFORE HAND -- do you want a shiney coin for "jewelry use" (which ruins its collector appeal -- but ups its jewelry appeal) --or does one want to keep it as a "collector coin" ? --you can not have both ways -- its pick one and live with it --- I would carefully mount the coin if used as jewelry in its "natural condtion or lightly cleaned as possible to retain its collector value" --but I know there are those who want "shiney" things --tell them up front-the "pit fall" of what they want to doand if they stupidly still want to do it have them sign a form about it -- then its ok your the boss it "your" coin but I warned you not to do it. ( and since they were warned / no refund)--- Ivan

 

[SamsSon]

I agree in part with SamsSon. It is not technically correct to call a cleaned genuine cob or maravedi fake because it has been cleaned too much! Perhaps the cob has lost value, but it is still "real".

As we all know a fake cob is a copy and it has nothing to do with a genuine cob. The term fake should not be used to describe an overly cleaned genuine cob.

I also agree with Ivan that overly cleaned or shiny but genuine cobs may be hard to distinguish sometimes from fake ones. As a buyer, if unsure, I may choose the uncleaned cobs over shiny ones because it gives me a little more assurance that it is genuine.

HH.
Moe 8)

Yes I agree totally with this statement and always have.

I usually only buy uncleaned coins myself. And too, I rarely totally clean my dug coins. I may just remove enough rust to read some details but that's about it.

But even if I totally remove all rust the coin is still what it is. Now if I make a die of a U.S. Large Cent and strike my own coin I'm making a fake coin. There is a great difference between cleaning and faking. Faking is why legally one is supposed to put the word COPY on the coin.

But again I completely understand why many like their finds to stay corroded. There's something oddly unique about the effects of the elements on a lost metal object.

But on the other hand there's something unique about being about to see the coins details too.

It's all a matter personal perspective and preference.

 

[SamsSon]

oh the coin is real as in minted long ago no doubt there --- but its the coins "condition" that is "fake" * it is "unnaturally" clean and thus hard to tell from a modern "fake--copy" coin --( coin dealers judge a coins "condition" based on its looks and its "condition" factors in heavily as to its $$$$ worth --- coins that are that old to look "proper" to a coin dealer should "show their age and "true" condition ---- thus overly cleaned coins "appear" to look like modern "fakes" --- one should be think carefully about what one wants to do with a coin BEFORE HAND -- do you want a shiney coin for "jewelry use" (which ruins its collector appeal -- but ups its jewelry appeal) --or does one want to keep it as a "collector coin" ? --you can not have both ways -- its pick one and live with it --- I would carefully mount the coin if used as jewelry in its "natural condtion or lightly cleaned as possible to retain its collector value" --but I know there are those who want "shiney" things --tell them up front-the "pit fall" of what they want to doand if they stupidly still want to do it have them sign a form about it -- then its ok your the boss it "your" coin but I warned you not to do it. ( and since they were warned / no refund)--- Ivan

The dealer should make it clear that when he calls the coin fake he is referring to it's condition due to over cleaning. This would be SOMEWHAT acceptable but still very misleading and deceptive. They really shouldn't even use the word "fake"if the actual coin MAY BE genuine. But what is in fact happening is these dealers are purposely making people think they were cheated. Some simply tell the person their coin is modern made and fake. Now that is a baldfaced lie and that's my point.

I think their real strategy is to get people away from the bargins on ebay to coming to them for their coin investments. Since ebay many shop owners have lost a lot of business.

Some metal detector dealers with stores do this same thing. They badmouth ebay dealers and some may even try to convince people that all used detectors are junk. Some of my best machines were purchased used off ebay or from other members of the various treasure forums.

After we boil this whole issue down I think one word rises to the surface--GREED.