QUESTION : What do you Folks think about the TROVE LAWS if ---

[BARKER]

they were to be implemented here in the USA I await. PEACE:RONB

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

they were to be implemented here in the USA I await. PEACE:RONB

Barker, you're talking about the laws they have in Britain, right ? No, they'll never work here. The whole infrastructure of back-bone laws are different in Britain versus here. Over there, all resources under the ground (minerals, oil, water, treasure caches, etc.... ) all "belong to the crown". Unlike here in the USA, where if you drill and find oil wealth on your land, you're rich.

Those laws in Britain are very misunderstood. Like as if they're some sort of "love affair" between archies and md'rs. As if they're some sort of "carte-blanche" that opens up every place to md'ing. Not so. Just like the USA, they have TONS Of places there that are off-limits. Why do you think they do 99% of their hunting on private land with permission ? Their historic sensitive monuments are very much off-limits, just like ours here in the USA.

So the only thing that those trove laws are doing, is to over-see the split of the finds between the govt (supposedly market value), the farmer, and the md'rs. They are NOT "opening up places to hunt".

Over here in the USA, if you find a cache on farmer Bob's land: It is totally between you and farmer Bob how you want to split or sell it. No interference by the govt.

 

[Xraywolf]

Offhand, I'd keep it to myself and not report it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

" .... the main point of the English Trove Laws is that if you make a good find you don't have the cops knocking on your door saying "thief" !!.... "

Huh ? Barker, what are you talking about ? When you "make a good find" here in the USA, the cops don't knock on your door saying "thief" either . Unless of course you were sneaking around w/o permission, then sure, that's going to get calls of "foul" in EITHER country. So what you are saying does not make sense. Caches here are found on private land. It's totally up to you and farmer Bob how to split it. And no one's called a "thief"

"..... That it is intended as a tool where the Crown gets to keep the find but you DO get paid "FULL MARKET VALUE." for your find...."

Again: What are you talking about ? You can get FULL MARKET VALUE for your finds here too. It's a tool called "ebay". And over here, you can KEEP your find and not sell it at all, if you wish. Versus there where you are forced to sell.

".... That value is split Equally between you and the Landlord. Everyone is happy ...."

So too can the same be said of here. So .... what's the point ??

".... I like that. I know of cases here where folks have made a good find, try to sneak out without anyone knowing, and as soon as they sell it EVERYONE knows and the cops come calling ...."

That can be said of both the USA and Britain. So how have trove laws changed any of that ?

"....I think that in time it will produce good PR which We sorely need ...."

I don't think so. The more you wave the topic of "md'ing" under a USA archie's nose, the more they are required to think about us. And that just results in MORE restrictions, not less. So it's the LESS attention to us that bodes well, not the MORE attention. And let's be dreadfully honest: You can "produce all the good PR" you want over here. And it's NOT going to "open up more places to hunt" (eg.: national parks, historic monuments, etc....).

"...In Mass there are about 50,000 "KNOWN" Archaeological sites. Thing is there are only 24 Accredited Archaeologists in the State yet they say We want these sites Preserved for future excavation. WEEEELLLL, At that rate it would take them a few 100,000 YEARS to excavate every known site. How Ludicrous.!!! "

You are mis-understanding the trove laws here Barker. Because I gaurantee you, that "registered archaeological sites" are OFF LIMITS in Britain. The trove laws are not "opening them up" for carte blanche hunting. To test this theory, I'll tell you what: Go try to detect around Stonehenge, and report back to us what happens.

 

[Silver Searcher]

They don't work over here either, they are full of flaws and the valuations of treasure finds are rubbish.

SS

 

[Msbeepbeep]

I don't think it would work the way it is supposed to.
Just look at all the laws we have now and how they are interrupted according to who's doing the interpretation and who it benifits.
I think we would still end up on the short end of the stick, no matter how they shake it.
They don't like competition.

 

[bill from lachine]

Folks,

Among other differences between the UK and the US and Canada for that matter....is the UK laws apply on a country wide basis whereas on this side of the pond State and Provincial laws in the case of Canada come into play as well as any Federal laws and statutes.

It would be a real kettle of fish as the Brits say to get something harmonized that would work over here.....just my 2 cents worth.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[BARKER]

Hi Bill; That is what I'm trying to get at. Trying to get "something" harmonized that will work here. Tom, I know it would NEVER open up Historical Sites or Monuments but there has to be some give somewhere. What that something is I don't know so I Posted this idea on the Trove Laws. Do ANY of you Folks have ANY good ideas as to how to improve this Conundrum ?? If so, Please Post them here. I'd love to hear them ok. What say ye Folks ?? I await. PEACE:RONB

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Trying to get "something" harmonized that will work here. ...

Barker, what is not "working" here that needs "harmonizing", that the UK's trove laws would fix ?

Please re-read what I wrote above. You will see they have only-to-do with the disposition of caches. And we have utterly no problem here selling our goodies. So .... what are we talking about ?

.... I know it would NEVER open up Historical Sites or Monuments but there has to be some give somewhere....

Glad you see that those laws have nothing to do with site-accesses. Ok, so what is the "give somewhere" that you think they would benefit us with then ? I am still failing to see how you think archies and the govt. interfering with our md'ing on private land is a "good thing".

... ANY good ideas as to how to improve this Conundrum ?? ....

What is the "conundrum" ? I do not see any problem here that those laws will fix.

 

[Msbeepbeep]

If you're trying to get the Archeological community to appreciate and start working "with" us instead of against us, thats going to be a very slow climb up a cliff. They do not like sharing...anything.
There are a few of them that see the benefit in working together. But those in power don't.

 

[Jason in Enid]

We don't need UK style laws here. As Tom said above, this is a solution searching for a problem.

 

[bill from lachine]

Folks,

A real life example of the difficulty of our community in dealing with archies.

A few winters back me and a few other detectorists signed up for an online archeology course at a US Ivy league university.

In the general discussion area I admitted I was a detectorist and asked an open question "are acheologists prepared to work with detectorists" much like this site there were rules stating no bashing, bullying, etc....

Well some yahoo from Germany called us thieves, grave robbers, etc....keep in mind the offer was on a pro bono basis to help on major excavations due to their restrictive budgets, etc....

I sent a pm to both the moderator, and the PHD in charge asking them to reign this yahoo in which they refused to do.

At that point I kind of lost it and stated that funny they would call us grave robbers because their not to distant history, such as King Tut's tomb, native remains that they refuse to return to the respective tribes for proper burial, etc....was much more offensive than anything ethical detectorists would consider doing.

The moderator chimed in and stated I thought you wanted to work with us....I told her point blank after the fact since you refused to reign in this loose cannon the offer is off the table and I will never support or encourage fellow detectorists to work with your community.

I went on to tell them to cancel my account and participation in the course.....the ivory tower arrogance is not something I have the patience to endure....sorry for the rant.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Good story Bill. And the notion of British style trove laws would not solve that. The only thing that would happen when people like THAT , is more laws AGAINST us. Not for us.

So do not swat these type hornet's nests.

And even if you convinced those types to love you, It's still not going to open up off-limits sites. And will have no effect on the sale of caches found. [I'd rather sell my own, thank you very much].

 

[bill from lachine]

Tom,

One of the points I had brought up in the thread before walking away was, most detectorists finds are in parks, sports fields, school yards, beaches and farmers fields where the soil has been landscaped, filled, tilled, etc, so the strata of the finds are completely out of context on a historical basis insofar as archeological methods are concerned.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom,

One of the points I had brought up in the thread before walking away was, most detectorists finds are in parks, sports fields, school yards, beaches and farmers fields where the soil has been landscaped, filled, tilled, etc, so the strata of the finds are completely out of context on a historical basis insofar as archeological methods are concerned.

Regards + HH

Bill

Yup. And do you *really* think the British system of trove laws is going to change those people's mindsets ? Of course not.

And BTW: logic like yours makes total sense to us md'rs . But it still doesn't fly with them. I mean, you'd think storm erosion sand (that has gone in and out with seasonal sand movement) has utterly no "context". Eg.: clad and old coins can be at the exact same depth when mother nature distributes them in various patterns. But it still doesn't fly with archies.

And humorously, there's even been some archies quoted that new coins (clad) ALSO "shouldn't be an exception either". The rational cited is this: "That even though it's not an artifact or cultural object NOW, yet by the md'r taking the object now, is depriving future generation's archaeologists (500 or 1000 yrs. from now), the opportunity to learn about their past"

In any case, put yourself in the fed. or state archie's mindset: Even if it were true that they could relax their standards (if they "saw the light of your logic about clad, about already-disturbed soil, etc....): Let's be perfectly honest: You know what would happen next is, that md'rs would be "forever pushing the envelope" to get as close to history and old stuff as they can. It would forever be a battle of semantics over exactly what spot is historic and undisturbed, versus innocuous, modern, and disturbed. And they simply CAN'T be bogged down in silly imaginary lines drawn throughout all different parks, etc.... So guess what the easy solution is? To simply say "no to all". Presto, problem solved.

And no, trove laws solve none of this.

 

[Msbeepbeep]

Their statement about the clad is hilarious!
If they think the modern zinc cents are going to sit around in the ground waiting to be dug up and discovered by some future generation archaeologist, they are in for a surprise!
Those babies are literally decaying as we speak!
I get readings now saying bottle/screw cap, only to dig up a corroded zinc! And some are in bits snd pieces.
So if they want any of thoses to show future generations they better be reserving from the mint!

 

[bill from lachine]

Folks,

Here's another real life example involving archies.....one of our mods on the Canadian Forum was detecting at a beach in Victoria, BC digging tons of junk and whatever else beeped to try and find a few keepers.

One of the finds he made was what looked like an encrusted coin....keep in mind this is a saltwater beach which aren't kind to coins.

In any event he brought his finds home and just let the encrusted coin dry out and carefully chipped off the crust and it turned out to be a hammered British coin from the 1500's A shilling if I recall.

He contacted the archeology department of the local University to report his find and kept the encrustation so they could do a carbon dating on it to try and get an idea as to how long it was there.....the results were inconclusive due to the tidal action so the organic matter was all over the map insofar as age was concerned.

A coin of that age is a tough find anywhere in North America and probably next to impossible on the West Coast but he managed to find one.

It made the local press including television and in the comments field of the article some do gooder or other said it should have been left for the archies to find....myself and others jumped in and told her that they wouldn't have bothered to sift through all the junk to make a find of that nature.

At least it got saved for posterity and he did the responsible thing and duly reported it....another case of ignorance in action as to the reaction of a do gooder...lol.

Regards + HH

Bill