Question (cache)

[xd]

Say a person was to find some gold bars, well gold bars that were cut up so not complete bars. Could you take these somewhere to get melted into bars again. and Do assayers (sp) report to the tax dept? and is there a place to sell complete gold bars? Please don't read to far into this because it is what it is a question. also should a person in this position just cut them up so not recogniseable and sell it as scrap gold?

 

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[Postalrevnant]

I am with you on this one. It's a detectors dream find, but what would one do with it?

I don't know if places like Midwest Refineries ...etc .. other assayers are required to report finds like this one to the government. But I do know that if you send in scrap gold, rings ...etc...one of the payment options open to you is to have your gold poured into bars. 1 ounce bars are what they are showing. Perhaps if your family had such a thing done long ago, but after storm damaged dropped a tree on your house and broke your bars Midwest Refineries would probably be happy to remold them into bars for you...or pay you cash. They pay 94% of market value for gold.

Don't know if this is an option or not. Not sure if certain golds are unmistakenly fingerprinted by nature or not.

Rev

 

[MiddenMonster]

Say a person was to find some gold bars, well gold bars that were cut up so not complete bars. Could you take these somewhere to get melted into bars again. and Do assayers (sp) report to the tax dept? and is there a place to sell complete gold bars? Please don't read to far into this because it is what it is a question. also should a person in this position just cut them up so not recogniseable and sell it as scrap gold?

If it were me I would consider melting and recasting it myself, just to avoid the prying eyes of snoopy revenuers. Gold has a low melting point, and purchasing a crucible and burner to do it wouldn't be that expensive. Using bricks, standard lumber and sand you can construct a decent casting trough. Use the bricks to square out the area, then frame it with the lumber so it can't separate. Get enough of the finest sand you can find, i.e. the smallest and most consistently sized grains that will fill the trough. Add just enough oil to the sand so that it sticks together. Too much oil and it will burn. Add the sand to the trough and work out the air pockets and other voids. Then get whatever shape you want as a mold and put it in the sand, flush with the top of the mold's surface. Using new bars of soap will work, if you can live with that shape. You can also cut 2x4's to the desired shape and use them. If you are going to be pouring a lot of bars you should make several molds so you can pour them at the same time. Line out the molds for the most efficient pour, then pack the sand around it so that it will hold together when you pour the gold. You can also gouge out channels to connect the molds so the molten gold will flow into the depressions. Carefully remove the molds and you are ready to go. Add the gold to the crucible, heat it until it melts into a free-flowing liquid, then carefully lift the crucible with long-handled tongs and pour it into the sand molds. Probably best to have a second person help you and use tongs made for two people. If you want to get fancy, you can design molds with unique impressions and images in them. One advantage of using soap for molds is that it is easy to carve.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Pure Au melts at 1064 C, rather high. Nice post Miden monster

Tropical Tramp

 

[74BRONC]

If you wanted to get cash for the gold that you melted down yourself how would you go about it without getting the government involved and having them take a huge chunk of it?
I would be worried about some back alley deal that could get you killed real easy.

And just walking into a coin store with a hundred pounds of gold to sell would surely raise some eyebrows on some authorities somewhere.
Not to mention how many coin stores have the kind of cash to pay you for the gold?

What are your thoughts?

 

[MiddenMonster]

If you wanted to get cash for the gold that you melted down yourself how would you go about it without getting the government involved and having them take a huge chunk of it?
I would be worried about some back alley deal that could get you killed real easy.

And just walking into a coin store with a hundred pounds of gold to sell would surely raise some eyebrows on some authorities somewhere.
Not to mention how many coin stores have the kind of cash to pay you for the gold?

I definitely wouldn't go the back alley route. Granted, *hundreds* of pounds would be far more complicated than 20-30lbs., but most large cities have several coin shops and exchanges. I think I would make the rounds over several months and sell to all of them. Another option would be to arrange the sale in smaller amounts prior to walking in with the gold. And if I was going to recast it I would consider pouring it into molds that could be sold as "art" or make my own collector coins. Reproductions of ancient objects would be a nice way, and you might be able to get more than if you sold it as ingots. If you had hundreds of pounds of gold, buying the equipment to melt and cast it would be a small investment considering the return. I don't have the talent to make jewelry, so I probably wouldn't even try. But I've done some metal casting, so I would be far more comfortable doing it that way. Let's face it. It doesn't matter if you are trying to liquidate large quantities of gold, diamonds or incorporate (launder is such a harsh term) a large stash of cash you found; you will have to put significant effort into the effort to do it right. It will require a lot of patience, planning and execution to do it without negative consequences.

And as long as I was sure that the federales weren't going to confiscate it I would be less concerned about paying taxes on it. Paying taxes on hundreds of pounds of gold might be worth it to get it converted into cash that can be invested and returning 10% every year. The stock market has averaged about 14% growth a year over the last century, and that includes crashes, recessions and everything else. Gold, on the other hand is a relatively poor investment in terms of returns. Just look at how stable the price has been since the 1980s. The key is to use the "Rule of 72". Divide the interest rate or the time period into 72 to determine the time it will take or interest rate needed for the value to double. A return of 10% will double every 7.2 years. The problem is that I don't trust the government to be happy with their cut in taxes, and would worry that they might have designs on thefting the whole thing. But if you are comfortable with the government settling for taxes, it might be worth it. $1,000,000 of gold, minus 40% in taxes nets you $600,000 that is free and clear. That's $60,000/year at 10%. In 7 years you have covered your tax bill and you don't have to worry about being robbed or hiding it. It also seems to me that it would be easier for a relatively wealthy person to liquidate that second $1,000,000 in gold you didn't tell the government about than had you tried to liquidate all $2,000,000 on the sly while working a $30,000-$50,000/year job. Personally, I wouldn't want to be sitting on a $2,000,000 cache of gold for years and years when I could be enjoying it.

 

[Blind.In.Texas]

Drop it into coin molds. Sell it for a discounted rate on ebay as scrap gold. Enjoy a weekly income for the rest of your life and NEVER EVER EVER forget to pay your taxes on it. Keep your mouth shut and live high on the hog for as long as you live....


Laater...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: to whom it may concern, I would "never" consider an under the counter cross border action. You would be violating multiple felony laws on both sides. There is "always" a leak somewhere eventually, and the statue of limitations is very long if it can be construed to be of Archaeological .interest - a very very broad term..

In Mexico, just take a certain amount to Banco de Mexico, they buy old coins and Gold, generally with no questions asked, since many treasures are being found daily. There are many legitimate Gold and old coin buyers.

Investigate and ask questions.

Remember, you can always legitimately buy old Gold coins or gold in placer form or small bars from an isolated Indian or small miner in the back county

Tropical Tramp

 

[audigger53]

I thought about this 20 years ago when I first started looking for caches(No, I have not hit one yet<G>).
I would be tempted to either grind them down into dust or buy some "Dutch Oven" corn muffin molds. Nice heavy cast iron molds for pouring into.
You will need "map gas" to melt it down, propane does not get hot enough to do the job good. That was from a friend whose father made a 10 Oz bar one time.
At any rate, you take the gold to a refinery and have it converted to .9999 gold. You will have to declare "What State" you got it from, so that they can pay the taxes to the State and Feds on the gold.
Before the taxes are removed, you will be charged a 3% fee to process the gold and another 3% fee if you want them to buy the gold from you.
6% off the top before taxes.
That is the way to get your cash money from all your "scrap" or prospected gold in the U.S.of A.
You do NOT have to file a claim, just declare the State and County that you recovered it from. Even if it is USNF or BLM land, you will have to pay the taxes to the State and County as well as the IRS.
In the U.S., that is a fact of life, unless you want to end up like Mr.Snipes.<G>

 

[gold fish]

Why can't you just tell them you found it in your(or a family members) front yard?? Seems like it would be pretty dumb to tell the govt. you found it on their land, especially considering how "money hungry" those worthless snakes are.

 

[MiddenMonster]

At any rate, you take the gold to a refinery and have it converted to .9999 gold. You will have to declare "What State" you got it from, so that they can pay the taxes to the State and Feds on the gold.
Before the taxes are removed, you will be charged a 3% fee to process the gold and another 3% fee if you want them to buy the gold from you.
6% off the top before taxes.
That is the way to get your cash money from all your "scrap" or prospected gold in the U.S.of A.
You do NOT have to file a claim, just declare the State and County that you recovered it from. Even if it is USNF or BLM land, you will have to pay the taxes to the State and County as well as the IRS.
In the U.S., that is a fact of life, unless you want to end up like Mr.Snipes.

If it were that simple I would have no problem in keeping the transaction kosher with the federal government. Texas doesn't have an income tax, so the only income tax due would be federal. Something to consider if you live in a state that is near Texas. But in going that route I would still take into consideration the various tax rates that would be applied. You're most likely going to have to provide your name, address and social security number when you take it to the refinery. And in doing so your tax rate will ultimately be based on your yearly income. I would only cash in enough to keep the tax in the lowest practical tax bracket. If I lived in a state that had a state income tax I would buy a mailbox in a state that didn't. If it were millions of dollars worth of gold I would even consider establishing residency there because an income tax state might try to stiff you for their tax, if they found out.

Another interesting fact about Texas: Texas supposedly has more gold by weight than any other state. It is in virtually every handfull of dirt you pick up. The problem is, the gold is in such fine particles that it isn't worth it to separate if from everything else. You would also have to have a heaping NASCAR track full of dirt to get enough to be rich, and you would go broke trying to separate it.

 

[audigger53]

Midden: You missed the point. You have to declare where you dug up/found the gold dust at the refinery.
Texas passed a law a long time ago about gold coins. If you sell 5 gold coins the State comes down and you have to prove that they are not stolen property, due to "all the robberys that occured in the State".
If you can not prove that it is NOT stolen property, they the State of Texas(Taxes) takes all of your coins and the money you recieved from selling the coins. I'm not sure about gold dust in Texas, but I sure wouldn't want to take a chance.
IMO New Mexico and Arizona are too close not to use them.<G>

 

[Night Stalker]

Like gold fish mentioned, just say you found them on YOUR property or a relatives property.

 

[Old Tom]

Xd
Did you or someone find gold bars ... ?

As far as gold, if the bars were made by a good company and the name and quality were still stamped into them then I would leave them alone. Maybe the bars were cut so the person could see they were solid gold.
When I buy or sell gold I want to be sure of weight and quality. I would not buy a bar of gold made by a individual, how do you know what your getting?

If you are going to try and avoid taxes .. then you will be dealing with someone that might not be very trust worthy. If the bars are stamped with weight and quality (ie. .999 fine gold) and are between 1 to 10 oz. then you should be able to find a coin dealer, scrap gold dealer or pawn shop to purchase small amounts with out paper work. Just know what you have and what it is worth and then expect to get less than it is worth if you don't want to file paper work. I had a friend who .. found a large amount of gold and silver, the IRS caught him because selling a lot each week to the same coin dealer. The coin dealer was selling so much he was audited by the IRS and he gave up my friend.

Either way each find is different ... if you find a lot.. bury most of it ... and get rid of a little at a time. And like others have said invest smaller amounts over longer times ... let it build

 

[drygulch]

Has any body thought about some of those overseas accounts that Uncle Sam can't get too?
DRYGULCH

 

[Skrimpy]

Either way each find is different ... if you find a lot.. bury most of it ... and get rid of a little at a time. And like others have said invest smaller amounts over longer times ... let it build

I agree. Sounds like to me if you have to get it recast your screwed. If you don't, pawn it off little by little. You will attract very little attention if you do it that way. I think it maybe the only way. Otherwise expect to get whacked with taxes or even worse confuscation if the good ol state of Texas suspects you found stolen gold.