Pumping sand

[Turtle Island Pond]

Greetings All,

I am not a treasure hunter, but I'm at a loss of where else to seek advice... so please excuse my intrusion into your forum.

I am exploring the possibility of building a suction dredge to expand my farm pond. My pond is a ground water filled sand pit. The soil is comparable to beach sand... no clay, no rocks... just sand. I have huge volume of water available.... 1.5 acres at 15 feet deep. I'm using my tractor with boxblade to dig down to the water table near the pond. I would like to then utilize a power jet or suction nozzle to pump the sand and enlarge the pond. This is all new to me... but I think I could excavate cheaper this way then renting a backhoe or similar equipment.

I'm seeking advice on the most affordable components to move A LOT of sand from under water to a pile about 25+ yards away. If I understand correctly, the power jet provides more pull than the suction nozzel provides push... so I'm assuming thats the way to go. I can get a fairly cheap pump to run off the PTO of my tractor... it is low volume (only 80 gallons per minute)... but it is 400 psi.... so high pressure. What size pipe / dredge could I power with such a pump; or, will I still need more GPM?

Any advice someone can give would be greatly appreciated.


Brian

 

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[omnicron]

Sounds like a trash pump would possibly work for what your wanting. Otherwise a power jet would be a cheaper overall way to go. You need to consider you'll need to dive underwater also as it's a hands on kind of job. You'll need a hookah compressor, regulator and mask. On the suction side you'll need all the hoses, pump, jet and other items. Might be cheeper to rent a backhoe as you could end up spending $1000 getting what you need to do the job. If your wanting to pump 25' away your going to want a very good pump like a keene or proline. Maybe to keep your cost down you could find a used dredge on craigslist but you'll still spend much more then renting a hoe.

 

[Fullpan]

I agree with Omni - anything over 4 ft. depth, you'll have to get under water. How many cu. yds are you wanting to move 25 yds. away ? How fast do you
want to finish the project - couple weeks, or a couple summers ? The total lift involved is important too. If you're just lifting the sand ten ft. vertically, its a lot less power required than say, 20 ft. vertically. A dredge pump capable of 400 gpm sounds more suitable if you want it done quickly.

 

[Hoser John]

Sticks and twigs are your worst enemy. The Grass valley catchment cleanout moved over 5,000 cu yds with 10" hoses and 3 pumps. 15' is no big deal but seeing what your doing is. If your in kalif 100s a dredges sittn' around rustn'. Water must be siphoned/pumped to where your suckn' from to work. A combo of a suction nozzle in the hole with a powerjet over the berm will easily do what ya want. Predication factor to it all is-how big a hole ya need,how deep and how fast as ez to do but again,them sticks and twigs are a REAL problem when pumping distances-John

 

[russau]

I was asked to do just what you are asking about but it was in another state and it was this landowners fav-o-rite fishing holes that had filled in because of his states DNRs dikes they installed and backfired on them! what I intended todo but never got around to was use my 4 inch dredge pump/air and lots of 4 inch hose and PVC pipe with several booster vwenturis to help push this material away from the stream. I figured that this job would take a week or two to punch several "fishing holes" into this ranchers stream. I never could get anybody to help me and I had to pass on the job. I couldn't get much info on its exact location to determine my access with my equipment and trailer. doing this alone would be next to almost impossible for me. ESSPECIALLY NOW with a bad back!

 

[Turtle Island Pond]

Thank you for the responses! I have priced the cost to rent an excavator or backhoe in my area, and I'm confident that I would be out a couple of grand before all of my pond projects were done. I think I would be better off in the long run investing in the pump / dredge equipment and doing it myself. I do not anticipate needing to dive under water for the project. The area I want to deepen in my existing pond will darn near be exposed / out of water by late summer because of the water table falling. I have started digging a smaller pond that will be between 1/8th and 1/4 of surface acre. At around three feet deep I will hit the water table. At that point I'm envisioning using a suction nozzel to begin creating a deep hole in the middle of the pond. I can pump the water out of the hole faster than if fills in naturally, to preclude me from needing to dive / be under water. In short, I want to pump around 6ft of sand from 1/8th of an acre. Since the project is in my backyard I can easily work on it a bit at a time... so I don't need to get it done on a set time table... but I also would like to finish in my lifetime! I want to strike a balance between very expensive and biting off more than I can chew with too small of a pump. What size dredge would be the minimum recommended to move that much sand? 3"? 4"? I will be working alone, except for some help from my 12 year old son.

 

[omnicron]

Well, based on the info you provided, my guess would be a minimum of 5" dredging equipment. A 3 or 4" is going to be much slower and could take you many weeks to months.
A suction nozzle will allow you to move in and out of the water without losing your prime. They are best for shallow water.
A power jet does not. You'll have to re-prime the hose every time you take it out of water other then small burps.
No matter what you choose, you'll still need water to operate either of those choices.
Kind of sounds like a hydroforce nozzle would be a better option when the water level drops.
Honestly consider renting or buying a big commercial trash pump and using the suction side to suck up the sand and discharge it where you want via the discharge hose. Most trash pumps can suck up to 3/4" solids (I think) maybe larger.

A three inch dredge will move 8 yards per hour
A four inch will move 12 yards per hour
A five inch will move 14 yards per hour
so on and so on
These are numbers put out by manufactures...take it with a grain of salt. All estimates based on ideal conditions pumping lose sand and no impacted material.

No matter which dredge you decide I still firmly believe your going to need to dive underwater, long arming will only get you so far and your visibility will get worse the longer you pump.

 

[chlsbrns]

You could use a submersible sand pump and a second pump to blast the sand. Its easier and faster than dredging.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sub...sand+pump+agitator&sboxchip=Shopping&tbm=shop

https://www.google.com/search?q=sub...le+sand+pump+agitator&sboxchip=Videos&tbm=vid

 

[Hoser John]

Lets do a reality check-there are 43,560 sq'ft' in a acre and you want to do 1/4 acre to 6' which equals at least 7,260 cubic yards. You will have a MASSIVE hole as sides slide in and you'll need 1 1/2 times that so figure 10,000 cubic yards with side sluffing in as not stable sides. THAT is a heck of a lotta materials to move any distance and forget them insipid mfg stats as pie in the sky bs to hype sales. You will be pumping uphill which is much harder and moving that amount of dirt that far away as 25 yards away will leave a mountain of materials. Start with a bulldozer to get to groundwater level and then backhoe to finish off. 100 yards away deposition is more accurate. You'll need a BIG 6" hose-3 jets and 3 engines to remove that much that far away to keep going. You will come across much tree limbs,sticks to plug up them hoses so you'll need a extremely fast flow rate to climb up'n out and remove a distance. 10,000 cubic yards is massive. Just look at a large 3 yard dump truck and you'll fill it 3,333 times over- I've done these type a projects and you'll need massive amounts of water to accomplish it also-wish ya all the luck ,time and $$$$ to do your thang-John

 

[omnicron]

Hoser knows!
He's the man!

 

[Goodyguy]

Thank you for the responses! I have priced the cost to rent an excavator or backhoe in my area, and I'm confident that I would be out a couple of grand before all of my pond projects were done. I think I would be better off in the long run investing in the pump / dredge equipment and doing it myself. I do not anticipate needing to dive under water for the project. The area I want to deepen in my existing pond will darn near be exposed / out of water by late summer because of the water table falling. I have started digging a smaller pond that will be between 1/8th and 1/4 of surface acre. At around three feet deep I will hit the water table. At that point I'm envisioning using a suction nozzel to begin creating a deep hole in the middle of the pond. I can pump the water out of the hole faster than if fills in naturally, to preclude me from needing to dive / be under water. In short, I want to pump around 6ft of sand from 1/8th of an acre. Since the project is in my backyard I can easily work on it a bit at a time... so I don't need to get it done on a set time table... but I also would like to finish in my lifetime! I want to strike a balance between very expensive and biting off more than I can chew with too small of a pump. What size dredge would be the minimum recommended to move that much sand? 3"? 4"? I will be working alone, except for some help from my 12 year old son.

1/8 of an acre 6 feet deep adds up to 1216 cubic yards. A 5" dredge in reality will only move about 3cu yards of material per hour full throttle with a 9hp engine and will burn nearly 2 gallons of gasoline per hour. @ 405 hours (50 eight hour days) you're looking at over $3k in gasoline alone.

And like John said that doesn't count the extra material that needs to be moved due to sloughing.
See if you can get a sand and gravel company to come get the sand as an even trade.

GG~

 

[goldgit'r]

Just hire someone in the area that owns an excavator and pay them to dig out your ponds.
You will spend more than you will save trying to do it any other way. IMHO

Wes

 

[chlsbrns]

If I wanted to pump out 1/8th of an acre to about six foot deep I would do something similar to borehole mining.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...TTFFdkw851qmwQW8PMaVLHg&bvm=bv.68235269,d.cWc

I would jet a hole to six feet in the center of the 1/8th acre. Suck from that hole.

Get a second pump. Connect it to 4 to 6 jets (eight foot pieces of pipe reduced at the jet end) Jet them into the ground and pump water in.

Or you could just jet with one larger pipe that you would move at the appropriate time.

Or you could just make a setup similar to what is shown at the above link.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bor...yYCQAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=751